Solo Solo box-office discussion

On this scale of failure, there's never one something, but a whole array of them.

 

I've only criticsedc the idea that TLJ is to blame. The idea that we deserve your insults (which you just complained about) isn't helping their discussion. We are both debating without solid data, yet you've insisted that everyone else is living in a fantasy land for disagreeing with you.

 

Quite, but "no general consensus" is quite a different thing from declaring one particular analysis to be TRUTH, and wonder why anyone is still arguing now that TRUTH has been pronounced.

I agree, it strikes me as rather dubious. People can be "experts", and "respectable" and be simply wrong, especially in an area like this. Around here, though, you'd think disputing their godlike infallibility was equivalent to denying the rotation of the Earth.

 

Sure, there are many factors. But I think that the crucial reason is that Solo was poorly conceived, rather than the delusion for TLJ, which IMO is not such a big deal.
Fans tend to overestimate the importance that GA gives to this stuff.

I agree.

 

There has been a small «media storm» of articles over the last weeks starting to look into the toxic Star Wars fandom climate + people like Boyega and Hamill starting to hit back at «fans» in a more direct way. I think its healthy and i also hope Lucasfilm will take some more responsibility for this. They could act more proactive in the way they communicate. I agree with that.

A good opinon from Heat Vision - sort of puts some of my basic theories behind all this «midlife crisis» fatigue, frustration about ONE movie and ONE character into context. The good thing: Star Wars has never been about one character or one movie. If so, it was going to die a long time ago. There are endless possibilities. Also, to turn around and make something vastly different. Which they might do. Solo was never looking to be that sort of project. For many reasons it was not the film both fans and the GA needed right now.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...ment-show-star-wars-has-a-fan-problem-1118898

What is Star Wars fandom against? Turns out, the answer: itself. Or, rather, the realization that Star Wars is and always has been for children, and they aren’t children any more. Star Wars fans — I count myself among them — look to the original trilogy as an anchor of youth. They want anything Star Wars to make them feel the way they did when they saw “a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away …” roll across the screen 40 years ago.

No diehard fan wants to imagine himself as old Luke Skywalker, hiding on an island from everything new, anything that might shake his steadfast belief in how the world is supposed to be. But if you saw the original Star Wars in the theater, that’s who you are, unless you find a way to open yourself to heroes designed to hook a new generation while still resonating with yours. Those who haven’t are lashing out at everything that reminds them that they’re no longer young Luke, staring off into the horizon of a future still dawning, like twin suns.

They are forgetting the very things that spoke to them about Star Wars in the first place — and the warnings of a little green puppet about the perils of anger.

 

This article is so slimy I feel the need of a shower after reading it.

 

I rather take that instead of posters claiming they just dont want their Star Wars to develope or to change - or just need to go to the cinema to feel comfortable for 2 hours with nothing that really upsets them. Thats not cinema.

The worst trolls are probably not even on this forum. And thats good. But this stuff has to stop, or its killing the overall pleasure and naive imagination of being a Star Wars fan or loving this fictional universe.

 

This is simply a misrepresentation of what people have been saying. We're debating whether TLJ had a significant impact on Solo's box office, someone pointed out that a respected analysis didn't think it was a big factor, and it was dismissed out of hand. No one is saying that he's absolutely right, or absolutely wrong.

 

Alternatively, you might wanna take none of the two.

 

That article is part of the problem with the toxic fan base. This situation has just gotten worse and worse because of how LFL has handled the situation and the way they addresses legitimate criticisms of TLJ during the first few weeks. The media making click bait articles like the one from Indiewire that clips part of JJ’s statements and tells fans their sexist if they don’t like TLJ essentially just throwing fuel on the fire when that’s not what he said. The toxic alt right people that aren’t fans that are just taking a shot at anyone because they can and the fans that have become toxic *******s and are now helping them. The situation is a mess and there is not one group that is responsible everyone is especially the media that is lumping all fans together and making the clickbait articles. Boyega had a great balanced statement on twitter recently and that’s something that a lot of people need to do instead of making everything worse and not choosing their words carefully. Heck Scott Mendelsson helped make things worse with his clickbait article title saying white men are box office poison. It’s ridiculous A lot of people need to look in the mirror because they are part of the problem even if they think they are part of the solution.

 

Oh sure. Thats an alternative as well.

@Jedi_Fenrir767 I partly agree with that- especially on your last sentence ....about «some people» having to look at themselves in the mirror.

I dont agree with everything in this article either, but with the expection from a very small and toxic clan of alt right iditots, i think many of those people he is talking about, is us. Ourselves. Himself. And some people need to get a better perspective....

Something a bit off topic. Next year will probably be the biggest box office year in history - and one of the first teasers arriving is this one:

 

[Removed off topic rant.]

 

I absolutely agree that Solo didn't help itself, but the premise was no worse and bland than Rogue One, and the trailers not much worse, while the character recognition was higher (even if not just Han, there was Chewie and the Falcon in there), and yet Rogue One was extraordinarily successful, and not just from legs after fans discovered that it was good, people were enthusiastic up front. Something changed with the IP. I wouldn't want to try Rogue One right now either if it was in Solo's place, with the feelings I have towards the writing quality of the franchise.

 

Such a good scene from the prequels. Even if the overall trilogy is hokey, I'd still want to see more of what the story has to say, there was still a desire to see the next movie because when it came to the parts which mattered, the story took itself seriously enough, it was still a political/identity/social drama which you can't really get much of on such a grand cinematic scale. The new movies have tried to make an adventure by copying scenes, dialogue, and 'twists' from the original, missing all the emotion in the scenes, and having no story to tell. Solo is a boring concept because the franchise is a boring concept. I'd see Ant-Man because it might actually contribute to a franchise which has a direction and story to tell, even if it's nowhere near the level of the political drama of SW (and I still hold that Phase 1 of the MCU is the best due to having elements like that, with Fury overseeing this whole endeavor while riding the moral grey line, even if the later parts have been more successful because people discovered that strong foundation and they haven't had too many bad movies). Meanwhile TLJ and Solo? I'm not here for random adventure which mines nostalgia and doesn't care about being deeper than that, I'm here for a story of characters with beliefs in a fantastical setting which adds up to something.

 

@Darth Smurf
I understand you getting mad, but you just cherry picking some random scenes from the PTs and STs does nothing to build any argument at all to me. Almost every Star Wars movie has scenes of greatness and some of the more embarassing type. That said, i agree with Canto Bight not being a big fav of mine either. And i love the context of the senate debate.

Also; The writer of the article is a fan himself. Like you and me. I agree he could have taken a bit more nuanced and more categoric stand at «normal» fans compared to those....alt right trolls, its rather weak in its context of doing that i guess. He wants to say too much in one article. My point was rather about the text i did highlight and which points a me and you, and many others here. Why this «there is nothing left for me in Star Wars feeling» anxiety or frustration.

 

IMO, what changed with the IP was far more fundamental than just one bad movie, or even the death of the OT characters.

It was loss of trust.

Consider:

- Episodes 7, 8, 9 are labeled and marketed as sequels. Yet, even some of their defenders here acknowledge that they are really a disguised reboot. What do we call it when you advertise one thing and deliver something else? A five letter word starting with "F". While this instance almost certainly doesn't meet the legal definition of the word, that's a distinction important only to lawyers and courts. Paying customers aren't bound to those strict definitions. They know when they've been taken for a ride and they'll punish you in the marketplace.

- TFA set up a number of things (Rey's parentage, Snoke, KOR) that a lot of people quite reasonably took as things that were leading to a payoff. Instead, they lead to dead ends and viewers are dismissively told those things never mattered. JJ's reputation for empty mystery boxes has been revalidated.

- LF told everyone they would respect the past and the respect the characters that Lucas built. The evidence is clear that many, many fans disagree based on what they saw in TLJ.

- LF promised a "unified continuity" where the movies, books, comics and TV series would mesh. As it is, TFA and TLJ don't even mesh with each other, let alone much the ancillary media that was supposed to "build up" to it.

- And all of this is compounded by the abysmal way LF has handled the PR since TLJ. The wagon circling from the top has ceded the narrative to the online bloggers. Bashing Star Wars has become a sport.

People have been saying "Why didn't TPM damage the brand?" Well I'd say there was a certain bubble that popped with TPM - a bubble that started to crack with the SE's. Many people who'd previously thought of Lucas as an untouchable wunderkind now saw him as fallible (you know, human.) And Lucas's own reticence in engaging with fandom made that worse. And Disney's own post-sale messaging carried the unmistakable subtext: "Good news. We're here to fix the broken franchise by changing the leadership. Lucas is gone. Hooray! It's safe to come back."

Well that cuts both ways. The new leadership has lost the trust of many, many fans. There was, for sure, a lot of expressed fear that Solo would ruin another beloved character, or that it would diminish his future relationship with Leia. While this (AFAIK) did not happen, the mere fact that such fears were expressed just shows how much faith has been lost in the KK regime. So many are now just apathetic, not just about Solo but about Episode IX and outright hostile towards a future RJ trilogy. Even Rogue One would almost certainly have met a much more hostile reception in the current environment.

And this environment of mistrust and hostility, combined with a noticeable lack of meaty hooks for future installments, the lack of positive communication from the top, plus the "dethroning" factor associated with Marvel grabbing the lead is a real problem that LF needs to confront. Solo's box office disaster is way bigger than just a bad marketing plan for that specific movie. Once lost, trust is very hard to regain.

 

[Removed more off topic ranting.]

 

Yeah, Disney is the victim yet it has all the influence and nearly every publisher on the internet writes an article in its defense yet no one here, on a fan forum no less, seems to behave in the way of the suggested stereotype toxic fan. Actually, I don't think I have ever read anything that is even close to a toxic fan perspective so they clearly don't have the publishing clout of the media shouting them down.

Oddly another article recently suggested that fans need to draw a distinction between the actor and the role. Yet that's all anyone here does. Yes, Rose as a character is criticised but when has anyone conclude that back to the actor? Never!

Look I'm really sick of these articles. Disney courted the existing SW fans, they were blatant in doing it so don't blame the fans. Disney chose to do what they did with the OT characters when they said they would respect them.

And don't make up some lame reasoning that fans did not want to see Luke Skywalker old or because of their own age or whatever. It's a nonsensical argument and he is not that much older than Robert Downy Jnr or many other popular actors. It's clickbait and I find the article insulting as I suspect most fans also would regardless of their level of enjoyment of TLJ and Solo.

I'm sick of the media trying to associate us as SW fans into a toxic conspiracy. I reject being included in that conspiracy through association of disliking TLJ but I also reject that toxic fans are killing SW. They didn't stop people from going to see Solo. I totally reject what TLJ did to Luke Skywalker but not for the reasons given in that article. Not for one moment.

Maybe Disney just needs to recalibrate that they don't have the number of fans they inherited when they first bought SW and Solo is proof of that. I wonder when not having enough fans becomes the problem?

 

Hell Christopher Lee was in his 80s in the prequel trilogy, Alec Guinness was in his 60s, and the Yoda puppet was born as being over 900 years old.

 

Well. Thats your opinion. And its all «us Star Wars fans. I rather reject being included in that sentence. You dont really get to decide who`s the victims and who «us Star Wars fans» is.

And you must be joking: Its not just because Luke is just old, look old.
See the subtext.

 

The absurdity of the statement is insane when you start to consider the number of exceptions. I wonder if he ever watched TFA and felt the same way about Harrison?

 

"Major reason" may be overstating it. I don't know what impact people being turned off by TLJ had on Solo. Nobody does. It's not unreasonable to speculate that it might have played a part, though.

And for my part- as I mentioned on another thread I'm probably the most casual fan on this forum. I don't dislike TLJ because it "ruined my childhood", I just consider it a bad and self-indulgent movie. And pretentious with it. I'm not the only one.

Further, the labelling of other people as "toxic" has become toxic in its own right. That's a way of dehumansing one's opponent. If you must use it, reserve it for the actual nasties- people who send death threats, and all that- not "anyone who disagrees with you about a movie".

All that said, though, I find it rather amusing that the latest pronouncement is that we need to realise "that Star Wars is and always has been for children". It's certainly a change from hearing ad infinitum that, with TLJ, Star Wars has come of age and reached a height of intellectual and philosophical sophistication far above the mental horizon of us dumb plebs.

Sorry, crossed with mod's warning!

 

This post is perfection! I co sign ALL OF IT

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...ment-show-star-wars-has-a-fan-problem-1118898
^^^Wow Snyder has to be like "where was all this mainstream media telling the fans to accept my version of Superman"
This idea that all of a sudden Star Wars gets to be exempt now from fan expectations on how characters and stories play out within the franchise when no other gets to is absurd.
That's part of the job....knowing your audience...weighing the benefits/consequences of the stories you are trying to tell. So far Lucasfilm has had a more than solid start .but as Obi-Wan said to Luke in ESB..."This is a dangerous time for you" They need to be very careful about where they go from here in what stories they choose to sell to the audience.
Now dealing with racist bigots and trolls who cross the line with personal attacks isn't apart of the job.