A/V Episode VIII - THE LAST JEDI - Official Movie Discussion Thread

Negative fan reaction to TFA and TLJ couldn't even harm the box office for TFA and TLJ, so there's little grounds for speculating that it will drive Star Wars into the ground.

 

Couldn't disagree more. TFA is irrelevant, it was generally well received with small pockets of displeasure. TLJ is the issue and there's plenty of merit in the idea that the fan reaction could hurt SW profitability going forward, even if it didn't affect TLJ's box office itself.

I hated TLJ and saw it in the theatre twice, go figure

 

Not sure if this was common knowledge but I totally hadn’t noticed this mirroring in TLJ.

https://reddit.app.link/TIK0A3K3dO

 

Solo suggests fans may be putting their money where their mouth is, will that carry through to Ep IX? Don't know.

Will the fans that do abandon SW in the wake of TLJ be replaced, NJO-style, by new fans? Don't know.

Will those new fans hopes and expectations be dashed SbS-style in Ep IX? Don't know.

Come back in 18 months for the answers.

 

I heard someone yesterday say that they liked Solo more than Last Jedi simply because Solo was just more "fun" than anything.

Gak! That's awesome, seen Last Jedi many many times but now that's pointed out the parallels between Rey / Rock & Kylo / Force projection Luke are pretty big.

 

I think I like them both about the same. I really loved Solo more than it deserved, because it was like a weird mixed up version of all my favorite old EU stories. I know that's a terrible tasteless way of thinking. I don't care. I got to see Xim's crystal skull on the big screen and hear Lando fanficcing the Lando trilogy and swearing at the Maw.

That said, I defer to TLJ as the film that had better planning and a deeper message about legends and stuff.

 

I'd definitely say that The Last Jedi (and even Force Awakens) have the more thematic depth. But that isn't what Solo is going for. It's the most Space Western-y of the Star Wars series and every one is sort of Space Western-y but Solo pushed it the furthest.

I will say in think in both Last Jedi and Solo the Peak Star Wars Weirdness in both films involved green - Luke drinking green milk from sea cow. Green guy in jar singing in Solo.

 

Solo doesn’t suggest anything other than get your marketing, release and production right.

 

Yeah... that and a gazillion more examples might indicate that whatever your beef with it, TLJ is a solid, tightly constructed, and thoroughly considered piece of storytelling and filmmaking.

Outside of hardcore fandom, I really don't think you would find anyone in the GA or amongst critics or film scholars who would argue that TLJ is a lesser piece of filmmaking than any single one of the Prequels.

I'm not a prequel basher, but I really believe that to like them, you have to overlook some glaringly flawed filmic and storytelling choices and like them because they're Star Wars. Conversely, to dislike TLJ, you have to overlook some extremely strong filmmaking and be annoyed with the fact that it's not the version of Star Wars that you personally wanted. And I think that shows in the endless handwringing over plotholes that are no worse than those in any other SW film, and complaints over issues that the film itself addresses.

 

Nice article by Film Critic Hulk -

http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/

 

So where did Rey get her outfit for the 2nd half of the movie? From the Caretakers? Were they doing laundry of her Resistance Base outfit and they gave her some old Jedi robes they had lying around? Did Rey leave in a huff without retrieving her laundry? Is it still there?! That was bona-fide Resistance Resources she's just leaving behind!

 

One thing I'm still unsure of coming out of this movie.

We know the nature of balance as it was defined by Lucas: the Sith are the unbalance of the Force. Without them in the picture there is nothing to act on the Force and therefore it is in balance.

But Rey's first lesson seems to indicate that the nature of balance has either changed or this is a new facet that needs to be reconciled with the old. Rey learns that everything is in balance, and that includes elements of what C.S. Lewis would call chaotic evil, the natural order playing out despite the natural order including violence in the natural world (phew). When Rey senses the dark side cave, Luke remarks, "Powerful light, powerful darkness". And indeed, the rest of the movie indicates that this is the rule of law. Kylo Ren's dark star is rising, and Rey's brightness to meet it.

But is this all just a fancy way to illustrate what's been going on all along and this is unrelated to the nature of the Prophecy? After all, Palpatine's darkness rose in the prequel trilogy and as an answer to that, we got Anakin who was supposed to be the risen light (and we know how that turned out). Now the same situation seems to be happening to Kylo and Rey.

So what's going on here with the term "balance"? Has Pablo or anyone from the Story Group weighed in on this at all?

 

I think there are two different types of balance being discussed here. The darkness Rey senses is tied to nature and isn't in itself evil. And it's not connected to the dark side. Luke does say powerful light, powerful darkness in regards to the cave, but he quickly switches his tune when he begins warning Rey to resist it. To me that suggests he realizes she's in danger. This is furthered when he's angry for her going straight towards it for answers. Also Luke is scared of her power's similarity to Kylo Ren and does view his nephew as a threat. So I don't think Luke's understanding of the dark side has changed. When George Lucas spoke of bringing balance to the force he was talking about defeating dark side force users. They seek to dominate others and twist the force to their will. They are thus corrupting the force by working against it. This is different than the cycle of death and rebirth Rey is sensing. She finds a natural darkness, especially the cave that is a dark side nexus. That in itself isn't a corruption. The Dark Side has always been present and so can't throw things out of balance by existing. But tapping into that darkness does mess with the balance of the force. Darksiders try to dominate the force and others and so corrupt the force. By tapping into the dark side they rely on evil to accomplish evil.

 

Yah and the Sith literally affected the Jedi's ability to use the Force ("I think it is time we should inform the council that are ability to use the Force has diminished.") In a post-Sith world, I don't see much diminished usage of the Force, very much the opposite in fact. Luke even tells Rey "For many years there was balance."

So while the balance of the Force is powerful light/powerful darkness and one rises to meet the other, that is the natural balance. The Sith unbalanced it in an unnatural, twisted way that affected the Force itself.

 

I'm not quite sure one side rising to meet the pther is part of balance. I think it's more the force trying to restore balance by defeating dark side users. I'd say Snoke and Kylo fit in the same category of corrupting the force. So it's not so much that dark and light are meeting each other, but when darkness rises light rises to prevent it throwing things out of balance. If Luke trained more Jedi, I doubt darksiders would defeat them. But since dark regained ascendence, the light rose up a champion. Kylo and Snoke would be an imposition on the force and an atempt to corrupt and twist it to their will

 

Yes - Snoke's framing is very important.

 

Thats a good point. I do like the notion that Anakin balanced the Force by destroying the Sith and whatever Snoke and Kylo are doing now, it's a different thing than what the Sith did. Even Kylo pretty much says that he's not a Sith so whatever his and Snoke's dark side hooju is it would be different from Sidious' deal.

*cough*UnlessSnokeWasReallyDarthPlageuis

Although he could have just dropped the Darth like Maul did and is on his own kick.

*cough*

 

Agreed. The Force makes the light rise to defeat the dark... but never the other way around. Sentients are just in the habit of going dark. If Rey died, someone else would rise. Etc. Etc. Etc. Until that darkness is defeated.

Of course, darkness has a habit of rising up too. It's just not the will of the Force.

It's endless. In the end, it doesn't matter who's winning at the moment, or how long the peace lasts... what matters is that an individual chooses to do the right thing. Not for a legacy, not for a result, but simply because it's the right thing to do.

 

I don't think the Jedi and the Sith are the only powers in the galaxy.

The Sith are gone but that doesn't mean evil is gone.

We also have Rey created as the new balance to Ren.

 

That's what everyone was just saying.

 

I have a personal theory that Rey's Awakening in the Force is basically the Cosmic Force's Plan B. Them darn Skywalkers have a tendency to tapdance with the dark or straight up go dark, they need Rey to kickstart 'em again. Like how the Force made Anakin to destroy the Sith, she was awakened in the Force to stand toe to to with Luke and Kylo. She's basically a wrench and the Skywalkers are a broken engine. It worked for Luke. Kylo is a maybe but I think he's pretty much gone all the way to crazy dark kill 'em all.

 

Just wondering, do we know if Snoke was talking the truth about the whole “Rey being a Moorcock-ian Champion of Balance/Light created/risen to challenge Kylo as the Champion of Darkness/general badness” or if he was lying or plain wrong?

Because if he is talking the truth that could mean that either the Force created her before Ben become Kylo or she somehow was chosen after that. If it is the later, do this ‘chosen one’ anointment give you a power boost or something similar or are you just pushed toward a confrontation with the other Champion?

 

Or the Force always has lots of people "in reserve" with great potential, and decided to "awaken" Rey as Snoke and Kylo grew and Luke shrunk from confrontation?

Perhaps the Jedi were wrong about midichlorians, and everyone has the potential to be "awakened" to Skywalker-levels... it just chose Rey due to circumstances as the best person to do what needs to be done.