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Author Topic: What a mess...
Hama 
Title:
Retired GSA
Retired RSA

Registered: Jun '00
14779_Ghosts ROTJ
Date Posted: 11/28/06 10:57am Subject: What a mess...
Wow. Just wow. Where do I start when trying to sort out the mess that is Jacksonville?

I would like to thank Twin_solo_Durron, crimsongryphon01, JaxAnakinSkywalker, MAGNIFICENT-SITH, Leia214, jediadigallia, macewndu73, ImperialOrder, REDEYEE, ObiWanAmanda, and Solo51 for posting insightful, considerate, well-thought-out commments. They were greatly appreciated, and I'm sorry you all have had to go through this. Most of all Amanda -- I've gone through and edited out the personal attacks against you in the thread.

Anakin-and-Padme, I can see why you have a reputation as a troublemaker. Your very first post in the thread is to threaten a lawsuit. That was one of the most childish things I have ever seen. How can you attempt intelligent discourse after a post like that? Multiple people preferred to PM me their thoughts on the issue rather than risk your ire. You're 34 years old according to your profile. You should be ashamed of yourself for posting something like that.

However, you did make some good points about revamping, which I'll get back to later.

DairNimiris, you would have had some of the more constructive posts if it wasn't outshadowed by cheap shots at the 501st and FanForce administration (meaning myself).

I_H8_registering -- bringing Amanda into this was completely uncalled for. Shame on you.

This brings me to Luis. I'm disappointed in you most of all. Your leadership lately has been deplorable. There's only so many times you can use the "I am the founder and your leader, and I have spoken" and expect it to be effective. This is not the Navy, where orders are given and followed without question. Trying to use that on a bunch of grown (civilian) adults is completely unrealistic. Secondly, you've been pestering me for over a month to ban Chase and Patrice when they have not committed any TOS violation that I can see, nor have they committed any kind of criminal offense or have pending civil litigation (i.e., a restraining order) involving themselves and any other member of the group. As I have explained to you and a few others via PM (who I suspect PM'd me at your request), I cannot and will not ban someone unless one of the aforementioned actions have occurred. Certainly not because they disagree with the way you run things. Also, I do not have the ability to lock an individual out of one forum, either. It's a total ban or none at all. The best you could hope for is asking someone not to post in a particular forum.

You told me in two separate PMs that "85% of the members" or "87% of the people" wanted Patrice and Chase kicked out. I haven't seen that in the 48 hours or so that the thread was open. Most people just seem to want the drama to end, and you have been the one most instrumental in perpetuating it.

You blame them for running off 90+ members. Ridiculous. First of all, EVERY FanForce group has had dwindling membership since the post-ROTS frenzy died down. There's no new movie to speculate on or look forward to. That's probably the biggest reason membership is down. People move on. Some probably don't want to join a group that seems to be predominately into costuming. Your group needs a broader appeal -- there's collectors, fan film makers, gamers, and people who just want a group of friends to hang out with on the weekends. And I can't help but believe a few of them don't want to be ordered around by someone who lords his "founder" status over everyone. Even your MySpace nickname is "The Founder." rolling_eyes Hell, I helped found two chapters (Indianapolis and Nashville). No one cares that I did that.

You ignored my recommendation to talk things out face-to-face, insisting that it be done on the boards. Although I gave consent to your thread proposal, the way you handled yourself was not the way I expect a Chapter Rep to behave. Then you tried to insinuate that I was the origin of the thread. Ludicrous and irresponsible.

Chase, Patrice -- I certainly can't fly down there and prevent you from attending meetings. You haven't done anything to warrant a banning on the boards. If there was an overwhelming majority of the membership asking you to leave, I would have agreed and asked you to leave as well. But like I said, I haven't seen any overwhelming majority ask any such thing. If you're willing to stick around and try to mend things, you've got my support. If you choose of your own free will to leave after all this drama, no one would blame you.

Luis, you no longer have the support of the FanForce administration. You have 24 hours to resign as Chapter Rep, either by posting here or submitting it to me via PM.

 

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macewndu73 
Registered: Apr '05
7453_Mace<br>Shatterpoint
Date Posted: 11/28/06 2:16pm Subject: RE: What a mess...
Hama posted:
Even your MySpace nickname is "The Founder." rolling_eyes


Dude, you want me to add you to my friends list??

 

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DarkTrooper85 
Registered: Sep '05
42090_Darth Revan
Date Posted: 11/28/06 3:13pm Subject: RE: What a mess...
well if he our leader goes i go, i have already said this before. so very very dissappointing.

 

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darth-blaze 
Registered: May '02
17248_Jango Fett
Date Posted: 11/28/06 4:29pm Subject: RE: What a mess... - Date Edited: 11/28/06 4:39pm (2 edits total) Edited By: darth-blaze
HAMA you said that you never said to open up this to the public, so how about this...This is what you PM me.....

SO you said I'll support either decision that is made (though I'd certainly rather keep the Jacksonville group here in FanForce).

If you decide to publicly ask them to leave, I'd recommend letting the rest of the group (the ones that agree with the decision, anyway) about the upcoming announcement and what day/time it will be made. That way, they can all be online to post their support for the decision. The more overwhelming the support, the better. That way it won't look like a small minority making the decision.

If the two of them are kicked out of the group, here's what I can and can't do to help:

I can't prevent them from reading posts in the forum. To keep them from finding the location of upcoming events, you might need to say "PM me for details" or send the specifics on an email list to the group.
There's no way to physically ban them from one board -- it's either ban them from all the boards or none. I can, however, warn them that future posts on the Jacksonville board will result in bans of ever-increasing length (24 hours, 48 hours, 96 hours, one week, two weeks, etc.).
We have a feature called "User Admin Notes" where I can make their posting restrictions known to the other Administrators on TFN.

Keep in mind that kicking any member out of a group is bound to be divisive among the rest of the members. You might have a couple more decide to leave out of anger/frustration. Make sure that it's definitely going to be in the best interest of the group (or the majority, at least).

Oh, and if you make an announcement like that, make sure you let me know when it's going to be so that I can keep an eye on the thread for troublemakers.


You close the post before everybody got to post, I wonder....

Anyways I was gonna leave anyways so here is what I was gonna post this morning but You close the thread.....

HAMA I know you want to keep the group in the Fan Force boards but I’m afraid that I have to do this ……I no longer wish to be the CR of Jacksonville, FL. I will form another group away from the Fan Force. Chase you win, you can keep the group, I mean you can keep your 5 members….Good luck running it. I gracefully bow out. Oh by the way Chase, You will see what happends to the "group after we completely pull out" Is not self-sufficient like you thought.

PS. before I forget this group covered all the aspects of the saga.
To all my TRUE FRIENDS we will open a new group, stand by, we will call you with the details. Thanks to everybody for your support, and to all the people that never got to post but still call me thanks

 

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DairNimiris 
Title: FanForce CR
Jacksonville, FL USA

Registered: May '05
6420_Mandalorian Patch
Date Posted: 11/28/06 4:52pm Subject: RE: What a mess...
Yeah, that's graceful all right.

Hama, I'm going to say this with complete honesty, I was not attacking you at all. If you have questions on that, perhaps I can clarify it. As for the 501st, I'll admit I was harsh, but frankly I wasn't the one who brought them into the discussion. Anyone who enters a debate is open game for criticism, and my shots weren't cheap, at all. That said, you could have been a lot harder on me about all of this, so really I have no place to gripe. Just wanted you to know that I don't have any qualms with how you handled this.

You guys (the comedy group) ever going to tour down here to J-town?

 

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Twin_solo_Durron 
Registered: Jun '03
18188_Kyp & Jaina
Date Posted: 11/28/06 5:06pm Subject: RE: What a mess...
Hama,
I would just like to say your welcome.

Lu- i would also like to say thank you . i am sry that it has to end like this but thank you for all that you have done and for all that you have brought me.

 

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JaxAnakinSkywalker 
Title: FCJK Public Affairs Officer
Registered: Feb '06
24205_Anakin
Date Posted: 11/28/06 5:26pm Subject: RE: What a mess...
I want to say thank you, Hama. I am happy to still be a member. Though I still hold the stance of there not being a commander. Our group should decide things as such, a group. Hama, if you need a CR for the chapter in Jacksonville, you have seen our active members enough to make an informed decision I believe.

Luis, it was never ultimately about winning or losing. I meant everything I have said to you. I still do not see you, Brian, Chris, Tina, etc. as my enemies. I never have and I do not want control of this group. I have only wanted it to be a freer environment. All of you are welcome to still come to a meeting where we can decide face-to-face what direction this group should go in. I think you really do lose if you completely chose to give up on us that have been with you this past year and all the great things we have managed to pull off. I think there are great areas to grow into that we haven't even considered yet.

Everyone that showed support for me, I greatly thank you. You know everything that I say here is true, and that I only want to have fun as part of all of this.

We do have some new things coming up along with some new ideas. As before, after the new year, we should meet and discuss what we all want to do next.

I pray that grudges can be dropped and we can truly learn to work together to bring the FCJK to it's true potential.

 

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DarkTrooper85 
Registered: Sep '05
42090_Darth Revan
Date Posted: 11/28/06 6:01pm Subject: RE: What a mess...
Cant help but think about the song The hand that feeds by Nine inch nails........what a shame

 

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Anakin-and-Padme 
Title: FCJK Website Empress
Registered: Sep '05
24201_Anakin and Padme
Date Posted: 11/28/06 6:02pm Subject: RE: What a mess...
HAMA - Thank you for your post and your decision. I apologize that you saw my original post in the other thread as childish. Perhaps it was wrong and I will accept responsibility for it as such. I thank you for recognizing that I can make some good and bit more mature posts in how the group can possibly be mended. I certainly hope that this really can facilitate just that in the group.

I can't wait until the next meeting after the holidays. I will be happy to watch the group grow again without the cloud of old issues that has hung over it for the past year. It is great for everyone who chooses to remain loyal to the group that this is finally over and we can get back to drama free business.

 

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Hama 
Title:
Retired GSA
Retired RSA

Registered: Jun '00
14779_Ghosts ROTJ
Date Posted: 11/28/06 8:36pm Subject: RE: What a mess...
Dwight -- I won't take anything you said in the other thread personally. Heck, if I was in your position, I might have thought the admins had no common sense, too. No plans to go on tour with the comedy group in the near future, but if anyone here makes the trip up to Nashville, your ticket is on me.

Chase -- The decision on a new CR will not be up to me. That's for the group to decide democratically. I'd recommend waiting a while for things to settle down before making a decision like that. Maybe have a group meeting or two first to settle old differences and ease any hard feelings that might be left over.

Jacksonville has been and always will be a valued chapter of FanForce. I look forward to working with the group in the future. Healing will take time after all this, but things will get better.

 

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Sithmauler 
Registered: Sep '06
23982_Anakin's Eye
Date Posted: 11/28/06 9:16pm Subject: RE: What a mess...
What happend, I didn't get to say nothing. Oh well. I don't know about this group, I think I'm with darthblaze. I remembered that when I started posting here anakin-and-padme picked on me also. And now we darth-blaze along with more members. I'm out of here. darth-blaze I will pm you, that's if you are still reading the boards.

 

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Skaught 
Registered: Sep '01
7944_TIE Pilot<br>Action Figure
Date Posted: 11/29/06 6:26am Subject: RE: What a mess...
DairNimiris posted:
As for the 501st...my shots weren't cheap, at all.


They were far from accurate, though.

Scott

 

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DairNimiris 
Title: FanForce CR
Jacksonville, FL USA

Registered: May '05
6420_Mandalorian Patch
Date Posted: 11/29/06 7:15am Subject: RE: What a mess...
Skaught posted:
DairNimiris posted:
As for the 501st...my shots weren't cheap, at all.


They were far from accurate, though.

Scott


That's fair. So defend it. I've already given examples to support my claims - not to mention the fact that this whole issue was started and fueld by 501st members.

I could be wrong, sure. I'd bow to that. But so far the arguements presented have been various forms of "Nuh-uh!" Which, I've been hearing since kindergarden.

 

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Skaught 
Registered: Sep '01
7944_TIE Pilot<br>Action Figure
Date Posted: 11/29/06 8:42am Subject: RE: What a mess...
Will do.

DairNimiris posted:
I feel the need to point out that the 501st is a pretentious band of glorified plastic.


The 501st feature well over 3,000 members from 21 countries and is growing each day. Since you have met only a tiny fraction of these people, you can not accurately make this claim.

DairNimiris posted:
Not to beat on them too much, the 501st was a delightful idea and at one time it was an organization to be proud of, but they, along with you - Luis - have lost their way.


Since you do not have any knowledge of the 501st leadership's current or future plans, you have no basis for stating that the organization has "lost their way". To the contrary, the 501st Legion has been very consistent with their mission. Our efforts to assist charities has increased. When the founder of the Legion's daughter fell ill, our membership rallied to the cause and raised thousands upon thousands of dollars to assist with medical and personal expenses. As this holiday season approaches, the 501st Legion is active in a variety of charitable events, both nationally as well as locally in our state. Looking beyond the Legion's charitable work, the 501st is very active in the Star Wars fan community. We've been asked to take the lead, again, for the Celebration IV volunteer organization. Lucasfilm is flying over 200 of our members to Pasadena, CA for the Tournament of Roses Parade. Locally, we're active in most every major and minor convention, get invited to march at Disney year after year, and participate in countless other events. As a result of our forward progress and the respect we've earned for our work, Lucasfilm wrote the 501st Legion into the official Star Wars storlyine. People can now buy action figures of the 501st Legion, read books and comics featuring Legion characters, and even play a video game centered around the 501st. All this was due to the contributions and dedication of all of our members.

This is hardly something I would described as "lost".

DairNimiris posted:
The organization, however, has become rather snobbish.


Confusing having standards that we enforce is not the same as being "snobbish". On one hand you make fun of over weight members, and then on the other you accuse us of being "snobbish". Which is it? We accept ALL people, regardless of their physical appearance. We don't reject over weight applicants, as apparently you would have us do. Nor short applicants. Nor tall applicants, black applicants, rich applicants, white applicants, poor applicants, or even wheelchair bound applicants. We only require that they have a quality Star Wars costume. It's because of our standards that we receive the kind of attention that we do. Heck, even LFL says our suits are better than those used in the movies.

DairNimiris posted:
I asked the 501st if there was anyone in their ranks that could help with the production. They told me "it's not the kind of project we're interested in."


The "501st" told you no such thing. Maybe some local members said they weren't interested, but the 501st as an organization did not. We are always interested in helping with fan films. We do it all the time. I've been in a couple myself. We've never told any film maker that we weren't interested in a fan film, unless there were legal issues that would make such participation unwise (such as the film makers seeking to make a profit). And in these rare cases, it was at the request of LFL.

DairNimiris posted:
The same 501st that thumbed its nose at me and the same 501st that has opted to take sides in Julia's little hissy fit.

The 501st never "thumbed its nose at" you, nor did the 501st ever take anyone's side. So again, inaccurate. What 501st members choose to do on their own, as private individuals, is their business. But what they do or who they side with is not official or even unofficial 501st policy. I don't even know who Julia is.

DairNimiris posted:
In regards to the 501st wanting to look "as cannon as can be" may I direct you to this picture
(picture of a non-canon, non-501st qualifying costume displayed).

A previous Legion Membership Officer was permitting custom bounty hunters to have their photos placed in the 501st database. We have since formalized the Legion's position on custom costumes and they are no longer permitted in the database or qualify for membership. A grace period has been extended to those in the database to get a canon costume submitted. Meanwhile their custom creations are still listed. We are looking at ways for members to still display their creativity through custom costumes down the road, but they will not be costumes that qill qualify for membership.



So, basically, you made a lot of broad brush stroke criticisms and flat out inaccurate representations. I'm sorry you are having issues with some local people, but it's not improving your character image by making such statements.

Scott

 

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DairNimiris 
Title: FanForce CR
Jacksonville, FL USA

Registered: May '05
6420_Mandalorian Patch
Date Posted: 11/29/06 9:39am Subject: RE: What a mess...
Skaught posted:
Will do.


The 501st feature well over 3,000 members from 21 countries and is growing each day. Since you have met only a tiny fraction of these people, you can not accurately make this claim.



Fair.

Skaught posted:
Since you do not have any knowledge of the 501st leadership's current or future plans, you have no basis for stating that the organization has "lost their way". To the contrary, the 501st Legion has been very consistent with their mission. Our efforts to assist charities has increased. When the founder of the Legion's daughter fell ill, our membership rallied to the cause and raised thousands upon thousands of dollars to assist with medical and personal expenses. As this holiday season approaches, the 501st Legion is active in a variety of charitable events, both nationally as well as locally in our state. Looking beyond the Legion's charitable work, the 501st is very active in the Star Wars fan community. We've been asked to take the lead, again, for the Celebration IV volunteer organization. Lucasfilm is flying over 200 of our members to Pasadena, CA for the Tournament of Roses Parade. Locally, we're active in most every major and minor convention, get invited to march at Disney year after year, and participate in countless other events. As a result of our forward progress and the respect we've earned for our work, Lucasfilm wrote the 501st Legion into the official Star Wars storlyine. People can now buy action figures of the 501st Legion, read books and comics featuring Legion characters, and even play a video game centered around the 501st. All this was due to the contributions and dedication of all of our members.

This is hardly something I would described as "lost".


No but it certainly illustrates my point of snobbery. "We're not self-centered! Why, just look at all the wonderful things we've done to promote ourselves and help ourselves out!"


Skaught posted:
Confusing having standards that we enforce is not the same as being "snobbish". On one hand you make fun of over weight members, and then on the other you accuse us of being "snobbish". Which is it? We accept ALL people, regardless of their physical appearance. We don't reject over weight applicants, as apparently you would have us do. Nor short applicants. Nor tall applicants, black applicants, rich applicants, white applicants, poor applicants, or even wheelchair bound applicants. We only require that they have a quality Star Wars costume. It's because of our standards that we receive the kind of attention that we do. Heck, even LFL says our suits are better than those used in the movies.


You completely avoided the issue. It's not about having standards. It's about how selective you are in enforcing those standards. Even now you're speaking out of two sides of your mouth. "We have standards." "We accept everybody." "We only require quality costumes." "He can't join because his sash is black, not dark-dark-dark-dark-almost-black-brown."

To your credit, yes. Your costumes are incredibly high quality. But so are those of people who the 501st has rejected. You can come here and defend yourself and that's fine. I'll take it where I deserve it. But let's be honest with ourselves. My qualms are obviously with local branches of the 501st. If you have a problem with that, then defend that. I'm not here to attack a global organization. That's stupid. You're either trying to bat off legitimate criticisms with semantics or you misunderstood the context of this entire highschool drama.

Skaught posted:
The "501st" told you no such thing. Maybe some local members said they weren't interested, but the 501st as an organization did not. We are always interested in helping with fan films. We do it all the time. I've been in a couple myself. We've never told any film maker that we weren't interested in a fan film, unless there were legal issues that would make such participation unwise (such as the film makers seeking to make a profit). And in these rare cases, it was at the request of LFL.


You can't have it both ways. The Florida branches of the 501st are connected to the 501st. Florida is a STATE. And if anyone in a leadership position over an entire STATE breaks character, then those who appointed such should take responsibility for overlooking the issue. The Florida 501st is either 501st or not 501st, which is it? Are they just a bunch of rogues who wear the name and the pride and garner support from everyone else despite their rogueness or are they the 501st?

From your PM, if you ARE the leadership of Florida then I appologize. I had given a copy of the screenplay to a member of the FL501st that said they'd pass it along to whomever could help. They then came back saying they had talked with that person over the phone and the person said it wasn't the kind of project they were interested in. They were completely unwilling to then pass it along to someone who would be interested in the kind of project. Considering the script was passed on during the evening hours and the reply came soon the next day, I was fairly certain the script was barely even skimmed. So I'm not sure how I was supposed to take that.

Skaught posted:
The 501st never "thumbed its nose at" you, nor did the 501st ever take anyone's side. So again, inaccurate. What 501st members choose to do on their own, as private individuals, is their business. But what they do or who they side with is not official or even unofficial 501st policy. I don't even know who Julia is.


Convenient but weak. When personal vendettas conflict with the professional side - something that was happening here in North Florida - you do have an issue, one that can not simply be shrugged off with "it's their business - I'm not hearing anything - la la la." Again, I'm not blaming Holland's branch of the 501st for anything that happens here. I don't know why you'd even think that.

Skaught posted:
(picture of a non-canon, non-501st qualifying costume displayed).


Oh that's cute. Real cute. I could have picked any number of pictures. That one was simply the nearest to the mouse cursor.

Skaught posted:
A previous Legion Membership Officer was permitting custom bounty hunters to have their photos placed in the 501st database. We have since formalized the Legion's position on custom costumes and they are no longer permitted in the database or qualify for membership. A grace period has been extended to those in the database to get a canon costume submitted. Meanwhile their custom creations are still listed. We are looking at ways for members to still display their creativity through custom costumes down the road, but they will not be costumes that qill qualify for membership.


Stop dodging the issue. We had two members come here bringing up the 501st (I was not the one to mention them first. I merely retaliated) The first one claimed that the are "the ELITE." The second defended by claiming that certain people are turned down because the organization wants to look "as cannon as can be."

My arguement is simple. The costume in question that was turned down was as close to canon as I've personally seen one and it's a beautiful costume and I'm a HUGE critic of bad costumes. Second, and I will continue to say this until you take it into context, FAT PEOPLE ARE NOT "ELITE" WARRIORS. Nor do they make a uniformed walking legion of terror look any scarrier. The military has VERY strict requirements with weight. Why would the Empire be any different?

You want to accept everybody, that's fine. I applaud that, do not misquote me. But it's one thing to say "we accept everybody, so long as they have a quality costume" because that's not what the Florida 501st was doing.

People came on here with weak arguements and I challenged them. And so far you've been countering by using global examples that have nothing to do with the local issues.

So basically you made broad brush stroke counter-criticisms and flat out ignored the issues at hand. I appreciate you being sorry that we've had such negative experiences with the local chapter of YOUR organization. But I'd appreciate it a whole lot more if you'd actually look over them with consideration of my criticisms rather than blindly acting apologetic on their behalf.

I'm not here to fight with the 501st. I always considered the organization as a whole to be an inspiration. I wrote a screenplay dedicated to the 501st. I think they're the life of any major Star Wars event. But that does not mean their local chapters are immune to legitimate criticisms.

For the record, I don't care about my character image. I have enough friends, thanks.

- dwight

 

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Skaught 
Registered: Sep '01
7944_TIE Pilot<br>Action Figure
Date Posted: 11/29/06 10:06am Subject: RE: What a mess...
When you make statements like the 501st has "lost its way" and that the 501st is "snobbish", you aren't referencing the 15-odd members based in Jacksonville. You're referencing the entire organization. And it's on that level that I addressed your statements. If that is not what you meant, you need to take more care in your words, because you didn't say what you now claim you meant. But even on that level, the accusations are not accurate. You're having some issues with individuals, not the organization -- or even local organization -- of the 501st.

Scott

 

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