Jedi Council Forums - New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)

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Author	Topic: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)
Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/5/03 6:44pm Subject: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!) - Date Edited: 9/11/05 11:18pm (8 edits total) Edited By: Genghis12
	This is basically a free-for-all follow-on from this thread... My fellow lunatics... the problem is this. There's a total mess in terms of the terminology of the New Republic's major capital ship classes... and since it's just getting worse, it's up to the fanboys to sort it out... [Note: what follows is very largely culled from on-line summaries of the WEG/WotC stuff and other threads... feel free to point out any mistakes] It should have been easy enough... the "New Classes" introduced in the Black Fleet Crisis trilogy consisted of eight designs on four spaceframes (of which the two larger spaceframes are relevant here - the 1,040m Endurance-class Fleet Carrier / Nebula-class Star Destroyer and the 700m Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser / Defender-class Assault Carrier). These were given basic stats by K-Mac himself (here) and duly given the full works stats for the inmates of the asylum to chew by West End Games in Cracken's Threat Dossier... with a little tinkering from the various versions I've seen, these seem to have come out like so... Endurance-class Fleet Carrier Length: 1,040 metres Crew: 6,795 + 76 gunners = 6,871 total Passengers: 1,600 troops Cargo Capacity: 15,000 metric tons Consumables: 5 months Hyperdrive Rating: Class 1 Weapons: 12 Turbolaser cannons, 8 Ion Cannons, 4 Tractor Beam Projectors Starfighters: 72 starfighters = two starwings Defender-class Star Destroyer Length: 1,040 meters Crew: 6,795 + 244 gunners = 7,039 total Passengers: 1,600 troops Cargo Capacity: 15,000 metric tons Consumables: 5 months Hyperdrive: Class 1 Weapons: 40 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries 40 Heavy Tubolaser Cannons 20 Ion Cannons 8 Concussion Missile Tubes 8 Tractor Beam Projectors Support Craft: 36 starfighters = one starwing Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser Length: 700 meters Crew: 4,050 + 132 gunners = 4,182 total Passengers: 640 troops Cargo Capacity: 12,000 metric tons Consumables: 5 months Hyperdrive: Class 1 Weapons: 30 Heavy Turbolaser Cannons 20 Laser Cannons 20 Ion Cannons 8 Concussion Missile Tubes 4 Tractor Beam Projectors Support Craft: Defender-class Assault Carrier Length: 700 meters Crew: 4,050 + 20 gunners = 4,070 total Passengers: 700 troops Cargo Capacity: 12,000 metric tons Consumables (Duration between resupply): 5 months Hyperdrive: Class 1 with Class 10 backup Weapons: 20 Laser Cannons Support Craft: 36 starfighters No, you didn't read that wrong... there was one glaringly odd thing in Cracken's Threat Dossier: the Nebula-class Star Destroyer was referred to as the Defender-class Star Destroyer... I'm not quite sure how this happened, or when... for all I know, it was just a typo... but it meant that in Cracken's Threat Dossier there were two different types of ship called Defender-class... a 1,040m Star Destroyer and a 700m Assault Carrier... Also, just for fun, someone also threw in the Republic-class Star Destroyer, which so far as I can tell is basically the same Star Destroyer as the Nebula only longer... which isn't quite the same as the Defender - that's just the same Star Destroyer with a new numberplate... Republic-class Star Destroyer Length: 1,250 meters Crew 8,168 + 260 gunners = 1428 total Passengers: 3,200 troops. Weapons: 40 heavy turbolaser batteries 40 heavy turbolaser cannons 20 ion cannons 10 tractor beam projectors Support Craft: 36 fighters = 1 starwing But so far, it was just about making sense, except for the fact that the Defender-class name had been mistakenly applied to the Nebula-class Star Destroyer. Then WotC came along with Starships of the Galaxy, and in an effort to make sense of the mess, they tried to pretend that the Defender-class Star Destroyer, the Defender-class Assault Carrier, and the Republic Systems Defender Starfighter from the old WEG DarkStryder campaign - no, I'm not kidding - were all part of one project - which almost makes sense, inasmuch as the Nebula-class ship is light on fighters, and might need support in combat... But then they went and gave the Defender-class Star Destroyer (the re-named Nebula-class) a new set of stats, the important differences being thus: Consumables: 6 months Weapons: 40 Heavy Turbolasers 40 Turbolasers 20 Ion cannons 8 Assault concussion missile tubes, 30 missiles each 8 Tractor beam projectors Support Craft: 60 starfighters and shuttles Only slightly different, but different enough to matter... so now we have three different types of ship designated as Defender-class... one of which was apparently just a typo for the Nebula-class, but which was firmly established as 'real' by the attempt to explain it away, and one of which seems to be an attempt to compound the problem by creating a Defender-class Star Destroyer that wasn't just a mis-named Nebula-class ship... And on top of that, we have the Republic-class, which looks embarrassingly like a long-wheelbase version of the "Defender-class" ship from Cracken's Threat Dossier... which to remind you is unequivocally the Nebula-class Star Destroyer from the BFC, and but not clearly the same thing as the Defender-class Star Destroyer from some or all of the WotC stuff... and definately not the Defender-class Assault Carrier from the BFC... Got all that? Meanwhile, in the earliest NJO novels, R.A. Salvatore and Jim Luceno started throwing about references to something called "Star Defenders", variously described as Viscount-class or Sentinel-class, and variously a 'Corellian' or 'Mon Calamari' design... in an effort to explain all this, WotC threw together a starship which was designed twice simultaneously on different sides of the GFFA under two different names (or something - the idea of a Mon Cal/Corellian hybrid just seems ugly in so many ways), and which I've variously seen described as being twice as long as the 1200m-long MC-90, and also as the largest Mon Cal ship ever - and thus longer than the Home One, which seems to be about three miles from bow to stern... Just to cap off all the confusion, a Republic-class cruiser apparently appeared in Destiny's Way... All of which leaves us with... well, what exactly? - The Imperial Ewok ::tosses in the unofficial logo for the Fleet Junkies:: -----signature----- A/T = OTP :===8[#]8===: Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
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Ton_G Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/5/03 7:00pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 6/5/03 7:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ton_G
	Finaly...in all my years of reading this forum, I have been waiting for this thread! Thank you Thrawn! -----signature----- /___/___/___///////////////////////////___/___///// /////___/////___/___////__//____////___//////////// ////___/////__////___////___//___////___/___/////// ///___/////___/___///____ //__////___/___///////
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 6/5/03 7:03pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	I agree we got a mess here. Firstly, I believe that the Star Defender is a warship of Mon Calamari design. It was stated as this in Vector Prime. Now, I know that later on it was refered to as a Corellian ship, but that is probably just a tyop or error on the part of the writer.(After all, every now and them there is mistakes in the EU). As for the size of it, I believe it is around twice the size of a MC-90 battlecruiser. Not to pose another question, but the star cruiser Mediator is described as a newer, heavier armed version of the famed Mon Cal Cruiser. Now, I personally believe it is just a new version of the MC-90, but the possibility still remains that the Mon Cals produced another newer version to replace the MC-90. After all, over the years they have always upgraded and improved on their star cruisers. Even if the Mediator is a new class, I imagine it is not much bigger than the other typres of Mon Cal cruisers. Afterall, the Mon Cals always seem to keep their warships sized around 1200 meters in length. As for weapon and fighter compliments, I imagine they would be larger than a standard MC-90 cruiser. As for the rest of the ships mentioned in the Black fleet crisis, we don't see them mentioned much anymore. It is possible that the Fifth Fleet was the only fleet outfitted with those New Class warships. The old stand me bys like the Star Destroyer and Mon Cal cruiser still seem to be a major part of teh NR/GA fleets. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Ton_G Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/5/03 7:11pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 6/5/03 8:03pm (6 edits total) Edited By: Ton_G
	Well, I think we can assume they are present, as there many occasions when vessels are simply reffered to as "cruiser" or "carrier". As for the Mediator let's give it some hypothetical stas Mediator-class Battlecruiser(for now any way) Length: 2500 meters Crew: 8,050 + 2000 gunners = 10,050 total Passengers: 1000 troops Cargo Capacity: 24000 metric tons Consumables: 12 months Hyperdrive: Class 1 Weapons: 45 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries 45 Turbolasers Batteries 40 Ion Cannons 45 Turbolaser Cannons 12 Concussion Missile Tubes 10 Tractor Beam Projectors Support Craft: one fighter wing? Republic-class Cruiser (for now any way) Length: 600 meters Crew: 3,000 + 100 gunners = 3100 total Passengers: 1000 troops Cargo Capacity: 8000 metric tons Consumables: 4.5 months Hyperdrive: Class 1 Weapons: 15 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries 15 Ion Cannons 20 Double Turbolaser Cannons 4 Concussion Missile Tubes 4 Tractor Beam Projectors Support Craft: 2 squadrons Just a start anyway...This may take a while -----signature----- /___/___/___///////////////////////////___/___///// /////___/////___/___////__//____////___//////////// ////___/////__////___////___//___////___/___/////// ///___/////___/___///____ //__////___/___///////
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Ton_G Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/5/03 7:36pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 6/5/03 7:58pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ton_G
	Just read K-Mac's site, It seems that the Republic-class is an older ship, post Thrawn and Dark Empire no doubt, but older than the New Class ships. I think the Defender-class should simply be known as the Nebula from here, could help solve confusion now and in the future. -----signature----- /___/___/___///////////////////////////___/___///// /////___/////___/___////__//____////___//////////// ////___/////__////___////___//___////___/___/////// ///___/////___/___///____ //__////___/___///////
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 6/5/03 7:53pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Actually, there are two Republic class ships. The one that you are refering to is the Republic class Star Destroyer. The new one is the Kuat Systems Republic class cruiser. I read an interview with Walter Jon williams, the author of Destiny's way. He said that the Republic class cruiser is a new warship that was pushed into serive after the Vong invaded the galaxy. It is an easily mass produced warship that is about 1 kilometer in length. There main attribute is that they can be produced at a fast rate and in large numbers. They have fairly basic systems and a moderate armament. If I can find the site I got this info off, I will post it. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Ton_G Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/5/03 7:55pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 6/5/03 7:58pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ton_G
	Actually, I am reffering to the Cruiser! lol! oh well, what do you think of the stats? (I was right, I had heard that it was a seperate ship before) EDIT New Stats (based on Nicks info) Republic-class Cruiser (for now any way) Length: 1000 meters Crew: 4,500 + 180 gunners = 4,680 total Passengers: 1000 troops Cargo Capacity: 8000 metric tons Consumables: 7 months Hyperdrive: Class 1 Weapons: 25 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries 25 Ion Cannons 20 Double Turbolaser Cannons 6 Concussion Missile Tubes 6 Tractor Beam Projectors Support Craft: 2 squadrons -----signature----- /___/___/___///////////////////////////___/___///// /////___/////___/___////__//____////___//////////// ////___/////__////___////___//___////___/___/////// ///___/////___/___///____ //__////___/___///////
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RaptorRage Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 6/5/03 9:23pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 6/5/03 9:34pm (3 edits total) Edited By: RaptorRage
	WOTC uses a different set of weapon terms and damage values than WEG, but they do seem to have converted all the batteries into individual cannons, but then went ahead and placed that number into a smaller number of batteries. I think part of the reason WOTC changed the batteries into cannons was that WEG did not have damage values that reflected the fact that a battery is supposed to be five individual cannons. For example looking at the Imperial Sourcebook it states a Heavy Turbolaser Cannon has a damage of 7D whereas a Heavy Turbolaser Battery has a damage of only 10D. Also WEG listed the numbers of weapons in each fire arc for their cannons and batteries the same way, so may have caused confusion with other published sources that also list starship stats. For example the ISD is listed in the Imperial Sourcebook with 60 Turbolaser Batteries (20 front, 20 left, 20 right) which should mean 300 individual cannons, but in the Star Wars Technical Journal Volume 2 and the X-wing Strategy Guide it is listed with 60 Heavy Turbolaser Cannons, and the EGVV attributes only 60 turbolasers to the ISD. Likewise the Super-class in EGVV is described as having 1,000 weapons, when it carries 500 total Turbolaser Batteries (logically 2,500 individual cannons) in the Imperial Sourcebook. Basically WEG was too ambiguous so other sources thought their numbers were in reference to individual weapons rather than multi-weapon batteries where specified. So those WOTC Defender-class Star Destroyer stats that appear on the surface to be undergunned from the WEG version are I think supposed to completely replace the older WEG stats despite the battery/individual cannon mishap. Likewise the WOTC Defender-class design is probably a replacement of the WEG design rather than a different ship. And to top that off of course it is supposed to be Nebula-class anyway. I'll try to compile the WOTC weapons and their WEG counterparts in a later post. Note now though for an example that what WEG called a Heavy Turbolaser Battery WOTC calls a Heavy Turbolaser. Basically we'll have to think of WEG's term "Battery" not as a 5-gun emplacement but rather a more powerful type of Turbolaser than the Cannons. Also it was Cracken's Threat Dossier that mentioned the three-ship Defender program, not Starships of the Galaxy. -----signature----- Executor SSD: 17,174 - 19,136 meters Death Star I: 160,000 - 164,592 meters Death Star II: 900,000 - 960,000 meters
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Brett_Bass Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/6/03 1:02am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Sweet lord, this sounds even worse than the hilarious Super[i]-class star destroyer problem. The only real insight that I can give is that the [i]Mediator-class battlecruiser is smaller than an ISD (Hero's Trial). Since it is the only craft from Star Wars that I know of termed a 'battlecruiser'--but the title has stuck (even ISDs get called 'cruisers' in ANH), I'll assume it's intentional. Also, given the textual evidence in which the Mediator-class is sunk in Hero's Trial, I guess we can (for now) assume that she is indeed, a battlecruiser. A battlecruiser being a ship designed to posess a very high degree of firepower in addition to a high maximum speed, necessitating a sacrifice of armor. Since the Mediator-class goes down relatively fast, I think that this could be used as evidence of her battlecruiser status. As for star defenders, the only ones I know of are the Corellian ones and the Mon Calamarian ones. As I recall, the Mon Cal version were the larges warships that they'd ever produced. Maybe in terms of gross tonnage they could be placed between a star destroyer and a super star destroyer. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie. Ex-Official Senator, Gilad Pellaeon Fan Thread. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. Semper Fidelis. Silver Lannik™/Golden Ewok No-Prize/Statuette™ recipient. Special Golden Ewok™ WARLORD Statuette (with 8km SSD plinth) recipient.
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/6/03 3:24am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Oh goody. I can just feel a migraine coming on. From various sources, I've heard that the Star Defenders are some where in 8km range lenght, though why they haven't shown up in battle with the Vong is beyond me???!!! And is that a typo, or is now 36 starfighters considered a wing? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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Brett_Bass Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/6/03 4:44am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Different militaries, different unit sizes. In the Imperial Navy, a wing is 72 fighters. In New Republic Fighter Command, it seems to be 36. Also, I don't think the star defenders were quite in the SSD size class. My estimate was in the 4-5,000 meter range. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie. Ex-Official Senator, Gilad Pellaeon Fan Thread. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. Semper Fidelis. Silver Lannik™/Golden Ewok No-Prize/Statuette™ recipient. Special Golden Ewok™ WARLORD Statuette (with 8km SSD plinth) recipient.
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Ton_G Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/6/03 4:48am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	I've Always thought the Star Defenders were in the 6000-8000m range myself... -----signature----- /___/___/___///////////////////////////___/___///// /////___/////___/___////__//____////___//////////// ////___/////__////___////___//___////___/___/////// ///___/////___/___///____ //__////___/___///////
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Ton_G Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/6/03 5:08am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Okay here are the WoTC Weapons: ----------------------------------------- Double Turbolaser Cannons 5d10x2 Damage with Multifire HeavyDouble Turbolaser Cannons 4d10x5 Damage with Multifire Light Turbo Quad Lasers 4d10x5 Damage with Autofire Turbo Quad Lasers 6d10x5 Damage with Autofire Turbolaser Cannons 2d10x5 Damage Light Turbolaser 4d10x5 Damage Medium Turbolaser 5d10x5 Damage Turbolaser 7d10x5 Damage Heavy Turbolaser 10d10x5 Damage ------------------------------ I think that Turbolaser Batteries, perhaps meant "A single turbolsaer with the power of a battery". It seems that Turbolaser and Turbolaser Battery Are synonymous! -----signature----- /___/___/___///////////////////////////___/___///// /////___/////___/___////__//____////___//////////// ////___/////__////___////___//___////___/___/////// ///___/////___/___///____ //__////___/___///////
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Brett_Bass Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 6/6/03 5:14am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Oh, and back to star defenders... I think we have seen them in combat, just haven't read about their explooits as of yet. As I recall, the brand new Mon Cal one (was that the Viscount?) was patrolling Coruscant space. If I were a betting man, I'd say that she was involved in the Battle of Coruscant--and because we never hear about her again, I assume she didn't make it. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie. Ex-Official Senator, Gilad Pellaeon Fan Thread. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori. Semper Fidelis. Silver Lannik™/Golden Ewok No-Prize/Statuette™ recipient. Special Golden Ewok™ WARLORD Statuette (with 8km SSD plinth) recipient.
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Ton_G Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/6/03 5:27am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Good Point, we could assume that they may also be defending Corellia, as some were built there. Do you agree with my Turbolaser=Turbolaser Battery theory? -----signature----- /___/___/___///////////////////////////___/___///// /////___/////___/___////__//____////___//////////// ////___/////__////___////___//___////___/___/////// ///___/////___/___///____ //__////___/___///////
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RaptorRage Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 6/6/03 5:47am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	That could work out especially due to te conversions that WOTC made with the terminology. -----signature----- Executor SSD: 17,174 - 19,136 meters Death Star I: 160,000 - 164,592 meters Death Star II: 900,000 - 960,000 meters
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