Author Topic: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)
Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/6/04 5:11pm Subject: Nick, C'baoth, Ton G - Date Edited: 1/6/04 6:11pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Borleias
Nick
1) I'm not really here to argue about Endor. Each person has his own interpretation. C'baoth's is one of them. I'm just showing my definition of "pro-Imp." The main point here is what your interpretation is where there is an uncertainty zone.

I've PARTICIPATED in one of this group's recent Battle of Endor thread. Remember?

I could have used another example, but that just means risking fire on another topic.

As for the Mon Cals retaining there command abilites so they could pull out of the Alliance


I didn't propose this idea. It was a toss-up between Seeker_two and Wes. I DID agree to it, because it made more pragmatic sense - but I am going to point out the consequences of this if true.

If you don't like that theory, you would have to come up with something better.

Lastly, the novels of the EU have shown the Mon Calamari to be nothing but s selfless race. To say anything else is incorrect. If you have a problem with the protrayl of the Mon Cals, I reccomend that you write LFL or DR instead of fabricating these incorrect theories about Mon Cal racism.


I prefer to judge by known actions rather than statements. I have no doubt the Mon Cals are a generous species. However, it seems like you are elevating them to near perfection.

I am a cynic. Remember that the New Republic was the victor, so many of the sources are written from their point of view. Especially ones like the Rebel Sourcebook and the Imperial Sourcebook (both were made by Rebel historians.) When anybody analyzes historical sources, one must be careful of bias. So, yes, I am cynical.

C'baoth
In the real world, yes, 160 km of falling debris would cause nuclear winter, but this is a fictional galaxy. There's no Force here, but I don't recall anyone complaining about realism in SW because of that.


It is not 160km. It is a 800-900km diameter sphere, scaled to the planet among other methods. I think the ICS (the original) actually admitted to this - a much more flexible stance than the Executor stance, I'd say. They even supposedly added a little thank you reference to Saxton in the book - I wonder it was this event that led to his selection.

George Lucas has also insisted that this is the same universe. It is a galaxy far far away, but it is apparently still our universe.

BTW, humans as a successful species depends on the intricate interaction of countless physical laws, which in turn affects chemical and biological reactions. If you change those laws significantly, it is hard to imagine humans as a species surviving.

OK, there's time for one more. So

Ton G!
The Mon Calamarian MC80 series vessels were their own, they were originally simple liners belonging to their own race. When the time came to refit, money was spent on the combat capabilities of these cruisers, rather than modifying the control systems, wgich would have been an unnecessary cost becasue their were plenty Mon Calamari to crew the vessels. And besides, the new vessels were designed to accomodate other species.


We've discussed this before:
1) This excuse does not work for new-build ships.
2) Even conversions are major projects. The control system would have to be reworked for the turbolasers, sensors and many other stations. The original crew would probably be split up to receive combat advanced training in the personnel-starved Rebel fleet. That's a great opportunity to make the ship multi-species. Yet they had to skip the bridge during those mods.
3) Not managing to accomplish full integration until the MC-90 is a little tardy, don't you think?

If there's still time left on this edit when I get back, I'd keep appending, so watch out.

Seeker
I don't think it was as much racism as it was trust & influence.


Is that an euphemism for "politics"?

By keeping the command controls species-specific, it gives the Mon Cals some say in what policy is made, missions are planned, & how the ships will be used. They can state that no Mon Cal Cruisers will be hauling spice, conducting BDZ's on helpless civilians, or sold to pirates for easy cash. And, if the Rebel Command plans a mission that the Mon Cals don't approve, they can simply not send ships. However, I don't think that the Mon Cals will run from a fight when engaged.


You just basically agreed with what I was trying to say. When the Mon Cals don't like something, they want the right to back up and leave. Even though that is apparently not a right of a signatory in the Rebel Alliance. This is to keep them from backing out in the tough spots. If the Mon Cals want to retain this right, they are demanding special treatment. Hmm...

Either one would do, but I doubt that the Mon Cals would put themselves in that position anyway. If bad came to worse, there's always the self-destruct option...


Oh, I see. So if it ever comes to that, the Mon Calamari would gladly destroy 5000 of their former subordinates. Such great bosses they are :-)

And they donated the command crews for each ship, too. Crews that know the ship well and could keep the ship from falling into the wrong hands...


Command crews that are used regardless of ability. A command crew that works for a passenger liner is not the same as a warship bridge crew. Even within warships, corvettes are handled much differently than battleships.

They don't know the ship well after its refit. Its maneuvering characteristics would be changed by the addition of armor, upgrading of power plants and so on. It is just another large ship to them.

This doesn't take away from the Mon Cal's altruism. In fact, it makes it more honorable. Not only did they contribute their ships to the forces of good--but they made sure that the same ships couldn't be corrupted to evil use. That's smart and honorable, in my book...


That's a positive spin put on the situation. The negative spin only requires the pointing out that in this caution, they are barring the good competitors as well. That's throwing out the baby with the bathwater, to use a cliche.

 

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seeker_two  559 posts
Registered: Jan '03
7318_Probe Droid
Date Posted: 1/6/04 7:04pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Borleias

Is that an euphemism for "politics"?


Yep. That's the way the universe works...

When the Mon Cals don't like something, they want the right to back up and leave. Even though that is apparently not a right of a signatory in the Rebel Alliance. This is to keep them from backing out in the tough spots. If the Mon Cals want to retain this right, they are demanding special treatment.

The Mon Cal's don't back out--they simply will choose not to participate in any activities that don't seem right (spice smuggling, piracy, etc.) Keeps the Rebellion honest. Special treatment--probably. But remember the Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules." wink

Oh, I see. So if it ever comes to that, the Mon Calamari would gladly destroy 5000 of their former subordinates. Such great bosses they are :-)

I've had worse... shock

Command crews that are used regardless of ability. A command crew that works for a passenger liner is not the same as a warship bridge crew. Even within warships, corvettes are handled much differently than battleships.

They don't know the ship well after its refit. Its maneuvering characteristics would be changed by the addition of armor, upgrading of power plants and so on. It is just another large ship to them.


If the crew has assisted in the refit, they'll know the differences too. And they'll be better suited to dealing with them than trying to train a brand new crew. Why do you think (in Star Trek: TMP) Spock, Sulu, & the others knew the refitted Enterprise while Kirk didn't? The crew was there throughout the refit. Same can be said for Lando & the Falcon--he didn't know all that Han did to her, but Han knew her like an old girlfriend.

That's a positive spin put on the situation.

In this case, the glass IS half-full... grin

 

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Wes  675 posts
Registered: Oct '00
6878_Admiral Daala
Date Posted: 1/6/04 9:59pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Oh, I see. So if it ever comes to that, the Mon Calamari would gladly destroy 5000 of their former subordinates. Such great bosses they are :-)

If the Mon Cals couldn't save their vessel, then I'm sure they would. Of course if they set it to a timer then the crew can at least escape.

The NR had a problem with its military that you can't really compare to a real life Earth military. They had a range of different species with different physiologies, that is why we see a lot of species oriented crews. On Earth a black man and white man can serve on the same ships and in the same area with no real problem, but in the SW universe a Mon Cal and a Human, while they can serve together one or the other will be in an environment they aren't comfortable in (either too dry or too humid). With such great differences the NRDF would have to be selective in the distribution of crew.

I know this isn't an answer since it doesn't really take on the fact that the Mon Cals had Mon Cal specific stations but since in the early days these problems would have been hard to deal with and keeping bridge crew of one species together would have been the best thing to do. When the Mon Cals joined they weren't split up and Rebel Command didn't start assigning mixed crews so that everyone was represented on the bridge.

Another question, do we hear much of Mon Cals serving on Bridges other then on Mon Cal Cruisers?

 

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AdmiralNick22  6949 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/6/04 11:02pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
I can see that this will only end up going nowhere.

Oh well, it is pointless to try to change someones opinion.

I recoomend that we drop this topic of Mon Cal motives/morals.

While interesting, it is proving a distraction from our true common goal here- a clearer understanding of NR capital ships. I posted that info from the Rebel Alliance sourcebook for that reason and that reason only.

So if all parties can agree, lets drop this discussion.

After all, this is a fictional universe. And, accordingly, we all may have slightly different views on various aspects of Star Wars.

So, lets get back to the real problem- New Republic Capital ships!

 

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JoruusCbaoth  3043 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6495_Joruus C'baoth
Date Posted: 1/6/04 11:09pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
"It is not 160km. It is a 800-900km diameter sphere"

I've heard numbers around that, something like 500 miles or something. Problem is, we run into the same endless Executor size debate when we compare that with the canonical 160 km.

I don't even want to begin to fight that particular war, I hope one day we can agree to disagree on the Executor.

 

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AdmiralNick22  6949 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/6/04 11:16pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/6/04 11:18pm (1 edits total) Edited By: AdmiralNick22
Good God!!

I have now seen it all.

There are actually people who think the Death Star is bigger than its officially established size?

Ya know, this is why some of us don't like people like Saxton. They take something that is a good entertainment, like Star Wars, and they try to fit it so neatly into the real world.

I mean, honestly. It is a FICTIONAL universe. I don't give a damn how big it looks on screen. Sometimes I worry about how people seem to spend so much trying to fit everying so neatly.

No wonder many people, including George Lucas, are afraid of SW fans. They can take things overboard at times.

[b]Joruus:[/b}

Good point. Lets do everything possible to keep that debate out of here.

 

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JoruusCbaoth  3043 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6495_Joruus C'baoth
Date Posted: 1/6/04 11:38pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
I think that cat's already out of the bag.

That being said, I tend to agree with Saxton on the five-mile fallacy, but that's about all. The rest of it I'm more critical of, but at least he's internally consistent and does his homework.

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/6/04 11:43pm Subject: Seeker_two, you first...
Yep. That's the way the universe works...


At least there's a person that is actually a realist, rather than just apparently sticking to the notion that Mon Cals are almost saints :-)

The Mon Cal's don't back out--they simply will choose not to participate in any activities that don't seem right (spice smuggling, piracy, etc.) Keeps the Rebellion honest. Special treatment--probably. But remember the Golden Rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules."


I see, they want special privileges to violate the chain of command whenever they want to.

In this case, the glass IS half-full...


I can be substantially less charitable. Imagine this analogy. I'm not very good at being PC, so try not to be too picky about my word choices as they come up next.

We have a company, run by say, a Caucasian. It is his company. But he doesn't allow any other race into his top management, and his stated reason is that he doesn't trust them. He then cites some statistics which might suggest his own race is more trustworthy. Is that slightly racially discriminatory? It might be his RIGHT, or maybe not, but I don't think anyone would argue about the discrimination in this.

Wes
As for your question, Wes, I don't remember explicit cases for ships, but Mon Calamari do just fine in multi-species starfighters. So I suppose if they qualify in ability, there is really nothing to keep them from serving on say an Assault Frigate's bridge. Until they get old - in Before the Storm, Ackbar is starting to have trouble breathing normal air - his lungs are not getting enough moisture in the relativly dry air.

Nick
Sure, I can drop it as is. My original intent was to provide another viewpoint, a more critical one. It kind of flared a little too big for my taste as well. So I leave it at this post, unless somebody says something INNOVATIVE on the topic.

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/7/04 12:00am Subject: Nick, who are you to limit
... the kind of entertainment people can enjoy out of a sci-fi series? Some of you just like to read it. Some people like to dress up like the characters. And some people like to make sense out of things.

We enjoy it, or we won't be doing it.

It may be a fictional universe, but according to Lucas it is supposed to be an undiscovered galaxy within our universe.

If you don't really give a damn how big it is, it might be fine. But you don't care how big it is on Primary Evidence (the film,) but you totally trust how big it is on Secondary Evidence (EU.) That's against the way Lucas already told you to look at the stuff that makes up the Star Wars universe. That's a little ... umm, wrong, if you ask me.

Especially when even the ICS had finally bulged on the issue, or so I've been told (I never had the SWICS in my hands.)

And are you sure George Lucas fears our branch of SW fans because we go and point out all his mistakes, his illogical moves, and so on? People don't like being criticized, but when they are, they can do a few things (these are what I could think of on the spot:)
1) Attempt to make improvements - that's apparently why they brought in Saxton.
2) Denial - which causes fear of your critics.
3) Apathy - know and accept it is wrong, but do nothing. That perpetrates brain bugs even further, and the apparent tendency of SW authors to do this in the name of "continuity" (gee, where's the movie when you are thinking about continuity) makes these brain bugs sound like they are well supported, but the family tree really traces back.
4) Golden Mean Fallacy. This is really pathetic if you ask me, like the switch to 8 miles for the Executor. It doesn't solve the problem, but tricks people into thinking it had been solved - it hadn't. 5+6=8 is more accurate in a sense, yet no different in another from 5+6=5.

 

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Vympel  329 posts
Registered: Oct '02
19527_Clone Model A
Date Posted: 1/7/04 12:56am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Good God!!

I have now seen it all.

There are actually people who think the Death Star is bigger than its officially established size?


Think? Wrong word- try "know". Unlike the hacks who didn't pay any attention to the films and just pulled an arbitrary number out of their butts, the size of the DS2 is quite obvious from the absolute canon. Absolute canon overrides "officially established" as you put it. We're just looking at it how we were told to look at it- by Lucasfilm no less.

Ya know, this is why some of us don't like people like Saxton. They take something that is a good entertainment, like Star Wars, and they try to fit it so neatly into the real world.


It works quite well. What's the problem?

I mean, honestly. It is a FICTIONAL universe. I don't give a damn how big it looks on screen. Sometimes I worry about how people seem to spend so much trying to fit everying so neatly.


So you don't care about the movies, but you care about what some book that's based off the movies, but which doesn't correspond to the movies at all, has to say? That makes sense.

 

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Wes  675 posts
Registered: Oct '00
6878_Admiral Daala
Date Posted: 1/7/04 1:34am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
The T-Type Thrustship was a fairly impressive warship. They were able to engage larger warships with a fair degree of success, I'm surprised the NR never designed a vessel like it. The spherical shape is mentioned to be quite good for shielding and weapon placement.

A larger vessel with more firepower, say that equal to a medium sized cruiser in banks, get rid or reduce the fighter capablities and you'd have a pretty formidable warship.

I'd like to see stats and images of ships that aren't part of the NRDF, like the ships in HoT duology. They sounded fairly impressive, maybe around the power and capablities of the Bothan Assault Cruiser, since that vessel was probably built so that the Bothans had capital ships that could face any of the major warships of individual species navys.

 

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seeker_two  559 posts
Registered: Jan '03
7318_Probe Droid
Date Posted: 1/7/04 5:08am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
I recoomend that we drop this topic of Mon Cal motives/morals.

While interesting, it is proving a distraction from our true common goal here- a clearer understanding of NR capital ships. I posted that info from the Rebel Alliance sourcebook for that reason and that reason only.

So if all parties can agree, lets drop this discussion.


Done... happy

Ya know, this is why some of us don't like people like Saxton. They take something that is a good entertainment, like Star Wars, and they try to fit it so neatly into the real world.

I mean, honestly. It is a FICTIONAL universe. I don't give a damn how big it looks on screen. Sometimes I worry about how people seem to spend so much trying to fit everying so neatly.


AMEN, ADMIRALNICK!!!! It's guys like Saxon that take the joy out of the fantasy. That's why my sig says it all... wink


The T-Type Thrustship was a fairly impressive warship. They were able to engage larger warships with a fair degree of success, I'm surprised the NR never designed a vessel like it. The spherical shape is mentioned to be quite good for shielding and weapon placement.


Any pics of a thrustship out there? I'd like to see one... happy

I'd like to see stats and images of ships that aren't part of the NRDF, like the ships in HoT duology.

Me too... grin

 

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AdmiralNick22  6949 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/7/04 6:43am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Vympel:

The official site (www.starwars.com) has it listed at 160 km in diameter.

It is good enough for me, and apparently good enough for most other fans.

If you want to believe it, you have that right. I will not try to change it.

Now, on to more constructive things....

Wes:

Yup, I have be wanting the stats for the various ships see in the planetary navies in HoT trilogy. Especially the Diamalia and Ishori warships.

As to the T-Type, you probably recall the conversation we all had about it several months ago, when I got Cracken's Threat Dossier. I recall that the basic conclusion was that it was probably the most compact killing mahcine out there, it terms of size in relation to power. I believe it was Brett who imagined that the interior was akin to old WWII submarines, meaning extremely small and uncomfortable.

Hey, perhaps one day someone will publish some stats on these vessels. Probably not, but I will be optimitic all the same. happy

Joruus:

Ah the imfamous SSD. I have seen some pretty big wars fought over that topic.

Still have my scars. happy tongue

Seeker_Two:

I will try to find one for you and post a link. If not, I may be able to scan one, if I can figure out how my scanner works! grin

 

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Lord_Darth_Bob  1759 posts
Registered: Jun '01
6615_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 1/7/04 4:03pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/7/04 4:08pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Darth_Bob
http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/moncalamaristarcruiser/index.html

The corresponding picture at top hardly resembles the Home One at all; then they actually show the destinct Home One in inset on the same page and go on to claim the ships are the same make! That's the official site's reliability right there. The denial of in-plain sight truths from "the real story of SW", the movies, is quite insulting, really.

Then, Behind the Scenes actually admits they built different ships for Ackbar's Home One and the winged Liberty.

The Official Site also says that Home One is 1.2 km, which is obviously is not. Its more like 3.8 km.

Although I don't think Rogue Leader had the correct size, it had a recent and valid admission that the Home One is a distinct vessel and vastly outmassing the MC80.

I shouldn't have the appeal to EU though. Your laziness is accepting incorrect secondary sources when objective analysis of the film and the models (which must be accurate to the film images in a scaling sense because they were used to create them) also reveal the numerous fabrications in violation of canon policy by the EU.

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/7/04 4:21pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
AMEN, ADMIRALNICK!!!! It's guys like Saxon that take the joy out of the fantasy. That's why my sig says it all...


Wait, I'm curious. How is Saxton scaling Executors and stuff and coming with logical explanations and pointing out mistakes ruining YOUR fun?

Making a fantasy make sense to me in no way takes away the joy. In fact, by increasing its link to real life, it gives us more to sympathize with, which is an improvement.

It is good enough for me, and apparently good enough for most other fans.


The size of the Death Star as shown on screen is good enough for EVERYONE. Very few people have the insight to see the difference, but the correctness of a claim is not determined by how many casual fans don't have the knowledge required to recognize a HUGE mistake.

SW.com is suffering from Apathy, which is one of the ways to handle known mistakes. A poor one, only one step up from Golden Mean.

 

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