Author Topic: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)
JoruusCbaoth  3043 posts
Registered: Apr '03
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Date Posted: 1/11/04 8:37am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Nick

What's the reasoning behind making Grand General a blackshirt rather than regular army?

 

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Thrawn McEwok  13599 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: May '00
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Date Posted: 1/11/04 9:25am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/11/04 9:33am (2 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
Borealis: the reasoning behind the Fleet Admiral/High Admiral stuff is almost entirely fanboy opinion... but IMHO, it makes sense... grin

[Well yeah, I would say that wink mischief tongue ]

Most obviously, High Admiral is the Navy equivalent of High General, and it would seem absurd to revert to "General" rank above the "Marshals": therefore, if Marshals go above High Generals, Fleet Admirals have to go above High Admirals.

Also, the rank of "High Admiral" is normally associated with a Sector Fleet, but it would seem absurd if there were no intermediary ranks between the thousand-odd High Admirals and the dozen Grand Admirals. Note that Pellaeon - commanding the Empire's eight remaining sector fleets, plus a strategic fleet of perhaps a hundred ImpStars - outranks a High General in the Hand of Thrawn duology... now partially this is by virtue of him holding the post of Supreme Commander, but again, we're back to the old problem... we need at least one rank above High Admiral for flag officers whose commands require them to be able to instantly outrank High Admirals... and Fleet Admiral fills the gap very nicely....

"Field Marshal" and "Star Marshal", however, are simply suggestions to provide hypothetical white-uniform ranks comparable to Grand Admiral...

We also have to throw in the rank of "Grand General" (held by Malcor Brashin from Force Commander and perhaps by Carvin in XWRS)... another "General" rank, obviously packing some serious seniority, but again, it feels wrong above the "Marshal" ranks, and it's not a white-uniform rank in spite of being a "Grand" rank...

My personal preference (kludge?!) is to associate it with some sort of elite/guards formation - the stormtrooper corps, generic 'blackshirts', or perhaps the Atrisian Royal Corps - where, as is often the way with such formations in rl, officers outrank their counterparts in all other arms of the service... thus, the Grand General, while only actually corresponding in terms of hierarchy to the Marshal/Fleet Admiral ranks, and wearing khaki, would at the same time outrank everyone except the Grand Admirals and the suggested "Field Marshal"/"Star Marshal"... all of which would make "Grand General" a borderline "Grand" rank, worthy of the name...

As to commander, the term is used three ways - as a generic title for officers who by rank or responsibility command bases/stations/units/whatever... as a Starfighter Command rank corresponding to a RAF Wing Commander... and as a rank for officers outranking navy captains...

Now the "Wing Commander" and "not a mere captain" variants may both derive from a system (WEG?! XvT?! George?!) which assumed a single rank-structure rising from Captain to Commander to Colonel to General to Admiral, but that's thankfully contradicted by the consistent usage of reasonably 'normative' navy and army ranks elsewhere... and Davip's promotion in TUF confirms what's always seemed to be implied by people like Kratas and Pter Thanas, namely that "Commander" is used in place of "Brigadier" by 'army-rank' officers outside of the 'real' army (Starfighter Command, gunnery, etc.)...

As to "Wing Commanders", we don't see any in the Imperial Starfleet AFAIK (Erisi Dlarit, if she is a mere "Wing Commander" in TBW, is serving in the Thyferran forces)...

So the best answer IMHO is to see "Wing Commander" as a rank from an 'alternative' system used by some elements of the Rebel Alliance that was retained by the NR, much as officers of the Dornean Navy were allowed to keep their 'army' ranks in NR service... new recruits in the NR/Galactic Alliance, however, have 'normative' ranks, so by the time of the NJO, the rank of "Wing Commander" is essentially extinct...

The 'alternative' system in question seems to have run something like Commander - Lieutenant-Commander - Lieutenant - Second Lieutenant for both 'army' and 'starfighter' forces... but it was probably relatively irreguar...

[Then we're faced with "Captain" Soontir Fel of the Pride of the Senate, outranking "Commander" Rosk and "Commander" Toniv, but later becoming a Major in Starfighter Command... but that can be rationalized by assuming that Fel, Rosk and Toniv, were all naval "Lieutenant-Commanders", but Fel was the 'captain' of the ship...]

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CaptainArdiff  1580 posts
Registered: Nov '99
6460_Stormtrooper<br>Look Sir, Donuts!
Date Posted: 1/11/04 10:19am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Borleias, good point. I was thinking in a far too calculator-like way when I took every rank to have a necessary unit under its command.

I can see a possible resolution for the problem of higher ranking Stormies on board Impstars. A Stormy officer normally wouldn't interact with oher services. Bu if there were a crisis, or some sort of attempted mutiny by the ship's command staff, then he would be on firm ground to stamp out the problem. It could also be that there simply aren't generally any Stormy higher-ups on ships. I know its not absence of evidence, that there's absence of evidence, but I'm unaware of any references to a Stormy of Colonel rank or above. All large Stormy units seem to be commanded by Regular Army officers like Veers. Although...I suppose I've never seen it conclusively stated that Veers is not a Stormy. But I'd like to think that we could take that as read.

Good resolution of the vast numbers of TIEs, Borleias happy

ThrawnMcEwok, I think that Saxton's old calculations of rank plaques provide a rank or two spare below Grand Admiral for use by Imperial plenipotentiaries. He gave up on this rank system I believe, but it involved 2 parts. The first was the width of plaques in terms of red squares over blue squares; the higher this number the higher the rank. The second was the number of rank cylinders; the lower this number - to a minimum of one in the basic system - the higher the sub rank.

I can't find the section in Tech Comm that contains this, but I do retain a copy at home, which I'll grab when I can. It's a questionable system, and differs from a previous idea he had on the precise relation of different ranks, but nonetheless. Basically he translated Thrawn's rank badge into one 7 wide, with two rank cylinders or 7(2).
Yellow badge squares slightly degrade the value of the insignia, but not as much as an extra cylinder (max. no. 4). Grand Moff Tarkin had a plaque 6(4) with three yellow badges. Therefore, ignoring the yellow badges, there were between him and Thrawn 6(3), 6(2), 6(1), 7(4) and 7(3).

However, even if this system is thrown out, we still see that there's room above Tarkin for three military ranks even if we only keep the badge 6 squares wide - red atop blue.

As to "Wing Commanders", we don't see any in the Imperial Starfleet AFAIK (Erisi Dlarit, if she is a mere "Wing Commander" in TBW, is serving in the Thyferran forces)...

The closest I recall to a Wing Commander is the Colonel i/c Fighters under Pellaeon in the HoT duology. His rank was equivalent to Group Captain, so I figured he was either Pellaeon's Senior Staff Officer (Fighers), or was the active OiC of the fighetrs immediately attached to Pellaeon, whether he commanded just Chimaera, or a squadron.

[Then we're faced with "Captain" Soontir Fel of the Pride of the Senate, outranking "Commander" Rosk and "Commander" Toniv, but later becoming a Major in Starfighter Command... but that can be rationalized by assuming that Fel, Rosk and Toniv, were all naval "Lieutenant-Commanders", but Fel was the 'captain' of the ship...]

Could Fel have acquired dual ranks within different services? I don't know how common this is nowadays, but under Nazism, SS officers often held dual ranks. Either as SS officer and high level Police Officer, or as Waffen SS general and the equivalent in the regular army. Also, some foreign dignitaries are awarded ranks in foreign nations' armed forces. If memory serves...Kaiser Wilhelm II held a fairly high nominal commission in the British army prior to WWI.

 

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AdmiralNick22  6913 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/11/04 10:41am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/11/04 11:03am (1 edits total) Edited By: AdmiralNick22
The main problem that I see is that the early EU books did not take alot of time to make sure that ranks made sense.

Flash forward to current EU, were people like us are constantly trying to make sense of things like this. Usually, with a little elbow grease, we can make things work. happy

BTW, I listened to that online interview with Troy Denning. It was pretty interesting. Hes does mention how there is some debate about the Mon Mothma, as well as the fact that he originally wanted to also include a warship named the Admiral Ackbar. That would of been his way of showing that Ackbar had passed on. Apparently, the editors nixed the idea, and Ackbar was saved for death for awhile longer.



 

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Lord_Darth_Bob  1759 posts
Registered: Jun '01
6615_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 1/11/04 4:39pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
I'm glad they nixed Admiral Ackbar. That's bad nomenclature: you don't include an officer's title if you christen a ship or class after him.

It should be the Ackbar. The M1A2 Abrams is not the M1A2 General Abrams.

 

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recurit03  300 posts
Registered: Nov '03
16237_Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 1/11/04 4:44pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
I am sure there are some cases where you could name a ship with a title beacuse with just Ackbar, and not a whole name it applies that his whole family is dead!! Was his first name ever mention in any book or comic?

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/11/04 4:49pm Subject: McEwok...
"almost entirely fanboy opinion... but IMHO it makes sense"?

The next time we talk about Saxton and his painstakingly taken scalars and Endor Holocaust, I don't want to see you beating on him :-)

If "almost entirely fanboy opinion" can override EU, so can "painstakingly taken scalars from the canon movie."

Most obviously, High Admiral is the Navy equivalent of High General,


Wait, stand by. The only link is the word "High." Not nearly good enough to defy the EU.

and it would seem absurd to revert to "General" rank above the "Marshals": therefore, if Marshals go above High Generals, Fleet Admirals have to go above High Admirals.


Remember that the SW EU world is supposed to be a translation from the original, which in in Basic (which we never get to see.) If for instance, the Grand General rank's original word was something like "Generalissimo", the guy can't very well translate THAT to Marshal, can he?

Fleet Admirals have a very SPECIFIC level in the OOB already slashed out for them.

Also, the rank of "High Admiral" is normally associated with a Sector Fleet, but it would seem absurd if there were no intermediary ranks between the thousand-odd High Admirals and the dozen Grand Admirals. Note that Pellaeon - commanding the Empire's eight remaining sector fleets, plus a strategic fleet of perhaps a hundred ImpStars - outranks a High General in the Hand of Thrawn duology... now partially this is by virtue of him holding the post of Supreme Commander, but again, we're back to the old problem... we need at least one rank above High Admiral for flag officers whose commands require them to be able to instantly outrank High Admirals... and Fleet Admiral fills the gap very nicely....


Well, that's where the Moffs, Grand Moffs, Grand Admirals and a couple of spaces come in. By the time you reach Moff, you are almost a feudal lord of old (though the Emperor does watch you more closely than the average feudal lord,) with your own Fleets and Armies. The Moffs tend to report to civilian authorities, so that's buffers right there.

And, Pellaeon's superiority makes sense if we kept Surface Marshal=High Admiral, above High General, would we? Again, High General is a position with a specified location in the OOB.

He's definitely the senior (he was probably something like 70 when he got the Chimaera at Endor, and he's now something like 90) of any other Commander. By virtue of seniority alone, he can be CINC as long as he has rank parity.

To put one over the Moffs, though, he probably was elevated to the old Grand Moff position, or higher.

We also have to throw in the rank of "Grand General" (held by Malcor Brashin from Force Commander and perhaps by Carvin in XWRS)... another "General" rank, obviously packing some serious seniority, but again, it feels wrong above the "Marshal" ranks, and it's not a white-uniform rank in spite of being a "Grand" rank...


As I understand it, everyone in that game wears that Veers uniform. No matter where Brashin is, he most definitely is no four column guy. I'm not sure we should rely on that.

Now the "Wing Commander" and "not a mere captain" variants may both derive from a system (WEG?! XvT?! George?!) which assumed a single rank-structure rising from Captain to Commander to Colonel to General to Admiral, but that's thankfully contradicted by the consistent usage of reasonably 'normative' navy and army ranks elsewhere... and Davip's promotion in TUF confirms what's always seemed to be implied by people like Kratas and Pter Thanas, namely that "Commander" is used in place of "Brigadier" by 'army-rank' officers outside of the 'real' army (Starfighter Command, gunnery, etc.)...


Probably the fighter games. It IS entirely possible for SW Basic to truly have no distinction between Army and Navy (and we added the distinction ourselves - but there's always the occasional joker that doesn't.) That's in fact the way the Chinese (and the related Japanese) rank system, for one goes.

Tell me more about Davip's promotion and why that shows that Commander = Brigadier. To be fair, I'm not sure about the appropriateness of translating that rank to Brigadier in English. It creates an impliance that there is a brigade level (read SWTC to see Saxton going ape over it again, even though brigades ARE supposed to be smaller than divisions / battlegroups.) But you still have to prove it.

[Then we're faced with "Captain" Soontir Fel of the Pride of the Senate, outranking "Commander" Rosk and "Commander" Toniv, but later becoming a Major in Starfighter Command... but that can be rationalized by assuming that Fel, Rosk and Toniv, were all naval "Lieutenant-Commanders", but Fel was the 'captain' of the ship...]


Doesn't work. He has to outrank that "Commander" Jelon guy on the flagship as well, which means at the VERY LEAST Fel was a full Commander. If you ask me, what happened is this. The guy graduated. He kicked ass in starfighters. So he quickly made Captain in starfighters. After that, he wanted to try driving ships. So on his promotion to Major, he transferred to starships, and they BREVET-promoted (temporary promotion) him to full Captain, thus making it easy for him to deal with other captains as an equal (for all his starfighter talent, it won't be easy at the conferences if he was a Lieutenant Commander and all the others are full Captains.) When he disobeyed orders in his retreat (it is the most honorable decision in the world, but this IS the Imp Navy, and he was part of a defeated unit,) he transferred back to starfighters. His brevet promotion no longer necessary and his permanent promotion not yet earned (maybe if he was part of a victorious force...) he resumed his rank of Major.

With that, there is no need to un-necessarily demote people.

 

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Lord_Darth_Bob  1759 posts
Registered: Jun '01
6615_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 1/11/04 4:50pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
I am sure there are some cases where you could name a ship with a title beacuse with just Ackbar, and not a whole name it applies that his whole family is dead!! Was his first name ever mention in any book or comic?


No it doesn't, because its quite clear it was named after a key individual with that name (in the case of Army vehicles). No one thinks the Abrams, Pershing, or Bradley families ended.

Not to mention you're assuming that Ackbar isn't just a singular name in of itself, with Ackbar and Mon Calamari in general not posessing a familial name.

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/11/04 4:55pm Subject: Bob
Maybe in English, but not elsewhere. Do you know that much of the Udaloy series of Soviet / Russian antisub destroys were named after admirals and marshals.

The survivors were (the full ship name INCLUDES the rank.) Given the way the Russian Navy is shrinking, maybe a few of these went to scrap also:
Marshal Vasilevsky
Marshal Shaposhnikov
Severomorsk (but it used to be the Marshal Budienny)
Admiral Levchenko (admittedly this one used to be the Khabarovsk)
Admiral Vinogradov
Admiral Kharlamov
Admiral Panteleyev

IIRC, they even had a "Vice Admiral" but that one was scrapped.

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/11/04 5:06pm Subject: Ardiff...
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/insignia/officer.html

That's the page. You remembered wrongly. Saxton painstakingly, in his usual mathematical way, computed the equivalent (I still don't understand that man's formula.) But a Grand Moff is part of Aesthetic 3 (with the yellow) at R7C5. There is Supreme Moff, then one more, then its Thrawn.

So far as anyone is aware, the stuff on his pages still reflect his current beliefs.

The closest I recall to a Wing Commander is the Colonel i/c Fighters under Pellaeon in the HoT duology. His rank was equivalent to Group Captain, so I figured he was either Pellaeon's Senior Staff Officer (Fighers), or was the active OiC of the fighetrs immediately attached to Pellaeon, whether he commanded just Chimaera, or a squadron.


1) Remember that you can use Colonel without the Lieutenant to address the Lieutenant Colonels as well.
2) Colonels aren't that high to command wings. In the modern US military, the better wings are commanded by Brigadiers, like the 366th Composite Wing (the one with the F-15s, -16s, B-1s all mixed together.)

Could Fel have acquired dual ranks within different services? I don't know how common this is nowadays, but under Nazism, SS officers often held dual ranks. Either as SS officer and high level Police Officer, or as Waffen SS general and the equivalent in the regular army. Also, some foreign dignitaries are awarded ranks in foreign nations' armed forces. If memory serves...Kaiser Wilhelm II held a fairly high nominal commission in the British army prior to WWI.


Possible but not required. And considering Fel's career is mostly starfighter, it is unlikely for his ship rank to be higher than his fighter rank.

 

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recurit03  300 posts
Registered: Nov '03
16237_Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 1/11/04 5:10pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
But we know that Ackbar is indeed a familly name because his neice was one of the Wraith's and her name was Jeslim Ackbar

 

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AdmiralNick22  6913 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/11/04 10:59pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/11/04 11:00pm (2 edits total) Edited By: AdmiralNick22
Well, I am almost 100% positve Ackbar is not just his last name, but his entire name.

Think about it, whenever people who are close to him address him in a personal setting (Think Leia, Mon Mothma, Winter) they refer to him as just plain Ackbar. It it were a last name, it would be like him calling Leia "Solo" instead of by her first name.

As for Jesmin Ackbar, I seem to recall some old fanboy spec that her name was just Jesmin, but that she added Ackbar to her name as a sign of respect for her famous uncle.

Just spec, but I tend to agree with it.

I must say that I agree with Lord_Darth_Bob about naming a ship Admiral Ackbar. Look at some real examples from the U.S. Navy. Our main type of aircraft carrier is the Nimitz class, not the Fleet Admiral Nimitz class.

Of course, I do hope to one day see a ship named after Ackbar. Preferably a Mon Cal warship, but anything would be cool.

Like, say the Ackbar class Star Defender?

I like it. grin

 

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Excellence  24488 posts
Registered: Jul '02
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Date Posted: 1/11/04 11:02pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
There was a Duke and Commander Merai in Defence of Kamino.

Of course Daala was a first name, so does Ackbar. And for many books we knew Pellaon as just Pellaon. Until someone gives Ackbar a first name, that's all we know.

 

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AdmiralNick22  6913 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/11/04 11:06pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
The evidence so far points to a pattern in Mon Cal names:

Ackbar
Ragab
Onoma
Terphen
Argoba
Sefsan
Istambin
Cilghal

All of these are singluar names.

I find it pretty telling that nearly every Mon Cal in the EU has been given a single name.

But, Excellence does make a good point. Perhaps some day an author will give Ackbar a first name. Personally I think it is unlikely, but anything is possible.

 

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JoruusCbaoth  3043 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6495_Joruus C'baoth
Date Posted: 1/11/04 11:44pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Time to drop in my few brain droppings on the matter...

How many instances of "Wing Commander" do we actually see after Dark Empire or so? I don't recall any, personally. Is it possible that the Empire used a more British system of rank for its pilots, which was emulated by the Rebels until their formal establishment as a Republic (in form, not just name, after Dark Empire)? Going by the British system, Wing Commander is equivalent to Lt. Colonel anyway, which would most often result in a pilot of that rank being addressed as Colonel.

And I'm tending to disagree with Nick's chart on the previous page, I would propose a Naval system similar to the British/American system, only with High Admiral arranged over Fleet Admiral, and Grand Admiral over High Admiral. I would tend to agree that there would logically be an intermediate rank between Grand Admiral and High Admiral to maintain chain of command, but I've seen no evidence of this. This would still leave the Navy with 14 ranks. I'd drop the "star" from "Star Lt." as well.

I'd show blackshirts and Army as identical, even if a blackshirt carries greater authority with said rank than his Army counterpart (rather like SS units compared to the Wehrmacht). I'd leave the expected US/UK system intact, with the upper ranks going as follows:

Grand General
Surface Marshal
Field Marshal
High General
General

...leaving us with 14 ranks, identical to the Navy. Is Field Marshal an appropriate SW rank? The Imperial Sourcebook does not list the rank in charge of a systems army, which is above an army (commanded by a general) but below a sector army (commanded by a surface marshal, who is usually also the Moff or Grand Moff who commands the sector group). By conjecture, it would have to be either Field Marshal or General of the Army. I've seen no reason why Grand Generals necessarily have to be either Army or blackshirt, either. It's quite possible that there were both.

As for starfighter command, I have NO idea. I'd normally go with the British system here, but names like Colonel Bas and Colonel Fel throw a monkey wrench here and there.

Also, I'll throw out a welcome back to Thrawn_McEwok.

The Mon Cal names I have NO idea about, but I'm more apt to chalk up the singular Mon Cal names to lazy EU authors. Even Pellaeon had a first name in the sourcebooks, though nobody seemed to use it until the NJO.

 

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