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Author	Topic: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)
Vympel Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 1/12/04 12:29am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	I'm glad they nixed Admiral Ackbar. That's bad nomenclature: you don't include an officer's title if you christen a ship or class after him. The Russians do- Admiral Kuznetsov carrier, and the Admiral Ushakov/Lazarev/Nakhimov battlecruisers. The names are actually ridiculously long- I don't have the original Russian on me, but it's like "Admiral of the Soviet Fleet etc etc etc" or something to that effect. Mouthful.
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/12/04 12:55am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	No wonder why the Soviet Union fell apart. Was Daala really her first name, or you just pulling my leg? Incidentally, the Germans actually had Grand Admirals during WWII (one of them surrendered to the Allies). What's the rank of an Imperial Army officer in charge of a typical planetary garrison? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 1/12/04 1:08am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Daala is her first name? No, that's not what I meant. Ackbar, Daala---those are their last names, of course. I had originally thought the Scylla was her first name, but apparently it isn't. Like giving Page a first name. Only happens till someone does; in this case, over ten years later! -----signature----- Rock-a-by baby, on the treetop, Beaming with pride, the filth they hold, But when the wind blows, my temper implodes, High above a pit, filled with sharkticons, Down will come hardcover addicts, beaming no more. ©
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/12/04 2:47am Subject: Joruus and Pelranius
	The Imperial Sourcebook does not list the rank in charge of a systems army, which is above an army (commanded by a general) It does. It is the High General. It may be easy to miss with a quick eye over the pages. The Entire Systems Army thing is in about a paragraph. I'd normally go with the British system here, but names like Colonel Bas and Colonel Fel throw a monkey wrench here and there. I don't recommend using the British system. It has a lot of rank nomenclature that double as billet nomenclature (Group Captain through Squadron Leader.) If you let those names get into your brain (like Saxton does, one of his bigger flaws) you will let it limit your thinking. For instance, what rank makes a fighter squadron leader varies widely. The IJN of old allows officers as low as "Middle Lieutenant" (a literal translation of kanji that's generally considered to be equivalent of a Lieutenant Junior Grade) to command squadrons (literally "medium-sized unit" in the original kanji.) That's so even in elite wings like Lae. On the other hand, of course are the Americans, who use precious Lieutenant Colonels for their squadron commanders. For that same reason, I hesitate to use the term Brigadier. There is, AFAIK, no brigade-level in the Imp military, nor is there a need for one, with regiments and divisions (called battlegroups now) and corps already well defined. Pelranius I suppose it might vary some from place to place, but the ISB implies it'd be a Major General. He has the Corps headquarters, and a few battalions and the 40-strong Army TIE Fighter Wing. The basic idea is that in emergencies, he would be in place to assume command of the various reigiments and battlegroups rushed in to reinforce him. Of course, this kind of commander would hardly be anything great when it comes to quality. And the Soviet system does have its own virtues when it comes to nomenclature. Such as their torpedoes. Throw you a Soviet torpedo model number, and you would often be able to get its caliber, approximate service date, and its characteristics (electrically propelled, homing, wire-guided are among characteristics often seen in their designations.) Much better than the ... Mk48.
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/12/04 3:11am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Speaking of nonclemenature, I wonder if there's something that CAN'T be used as a ship name. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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Vympel Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 1/12/04 6:07am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	No wonder why the Soviet Union fell apart. Was Daala really her first name, or you just pulling my leg? Incidentally, the Germans actually had Grand Admirals during WWII (one of them surrendered to the Allies). What's the rank of an Imperial Army officer in charge of a typical planetary garrison? Notice I said Russian, not Soviet. Those are the new names for them. The Soviet names were different.
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JoruusCbaoth Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/12/04 6:37am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Pelranius "What's the rank of an Imperial Army officer in charge of a typical planetary garrison? " Unfortunately, there's not a designation of "planetary army" in the Imperial Sourcebook, it jumps from Army )(293,686 personnel, 193,644 of which are troops) to systems army, which has an HQ the same size as an Army, but is largely a bookkeeping designation, as the high general in charge mostly just makes sure that the local major generals known where their resources are. Basically, my above statement of rank is thrown into question. I still think that Field Marshal is an adequate in-between rank for an intermediate between the sector and the system level. If nothing else, the Field Marshal does the real work in most sectors while the Surface Marshal (who's usually the Moff) goes about other business. Borleias "It does. It is the High General. It may be easy to miss with a quick eye over the pages. The Entire Systems Army thing is in about a paragraph. " You're right, and I see it quite clearly this morning. "It has a lot of rank nomenclature that double as billet nomenclature" Agreed, which I'll stay clear of. -----signature----- Orignal Fleet Junkie
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/12/04 7:30am Subject: There is no designation of planetary army
	Because there's really little point. Planets are of every size in the SW galaxy. Some of them have tens of thousands. Others have trillions or even hundreds of trillions of sentients. Along with that comes importance of planet and the local threat level, all of which determines the size of the planetary garrison. You might as well ask for a level called "The Garrison" while you are at it. Here's what it does say in the ISB: There are far more corps HQs than there are corps. This represents an abundance of more than pleasant jobs for less than brilliant offers - the corps HQ is the basis for the Imperial garrison. The Empire wants garrisons to be organizing points for rapid mobilization. Realizing that in a crisis units may have to be sent from many parts of sector, the Army wanted HQs in place which could take command of all the parts. As Imperial doctrine currently holds that a corps is a sufficient force to retake any planet, corps HQs are set up as the basis of Imperial garrisons. As the garrisons also have diplomatic, trade and medical functions, additional tech, medical, science and diplomatic service personnel are assigned. These are nominally outside of the major generals' command, but reality often puts the general in charge. The typical military contingent is at the battalion level, most often four battalions mixed in a way which is optimum for the world on which the base is situated rather than following the OB and construction a regiment. A battalion of stormtroopers, one of AT-STs, and two battalions of AT-ATs is a popular configuration. In addition, the ground support wing of the auxiliary battlegroup is almost always present. TIE fighters are a rare enough resource that any wise commander will take all he is entitled to as soon as he can get them. Of course, in an emergency, extra regiments and battlegroups are dribbled in.
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 1/12/04 9:03am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	CaptainArdiff: as to ranks, the problem is that there does seem to have been a restructuring of the insignia between ANH and ESB, to say nothing of a FUBAR in RotJ... I have some ideas of how the whole thing might hang together, but nothing that I want to stress overmuch... at any rate, I don't think we can use rank tabs to infer 'missing' rank grades... With "Wing Commanders", I was thinking of the rank that Wedge seems to hold in the X-Wing and T3 novels... The problem with Fel's rank is that any implied naval seniority would make him seriously overqualified for his posting as a flight leader in the 181st... but it's standard practice for a ship's captain to be called 'captain', regardless of the rank he holds, so that seems to me to be a far easier 'fix'... Major Fel (in retrospect, I suspect he was always "Major" by rank, even as 'Captain' of the Pride of the Senate) would be addressed as "Captain Fel"... AdmiralNick22: nahh, that's not true. Zahn's ranks make perfect sense. The problem derives entirely from the ISB... And the Admiral Ackbar would have kriffed the Senator-class naming system, wouldn't it? Borealis: The next time we talk about Saxton and his painstakingly taken scalars and Endor Holocaust, I don't want to see you beating on him :-) When have you ever seen me 'beating on' Saxton. Within his frame of reference (movie footage as observational data, EU stuff as observational data that's only wrong if it's contradicted by the canon) he's impeccable... I think I'm a lot more in sympathy with him than some people here... My main beef with Saxton (such as it is) is that I'm playing a slightly different game with the "Matter of SW" (well, only slightly different - Saxton is just as prepared to make some problematic stuff the subjective POVs of mentally unballanced people as I am)... I'm positing an underlying 'continuity' within which everything can be rooted, explaining most inconsistencies as 'in-continuity' mistakes (the 'five-mile fallacy', which appears in lots of stuff that represents 'in-continuity' authorized Rebel/NR 'voices'), certain POVs (I'd consider the clone Palpatine in DE as just a clone), or even deliberate lies and disinformation (large chunks of Cracken's Threat Dossier and Darksaber)... I'd quibble with some issues of POV - while not denying the existance of multi-mile battleships, for instance, I'd question their effectiveness as weapons platforms, and thus their... I'd also wonder if the Rebels, being the sort of people they are, wouldn't do their best to repair the Endor ecosystem... But do I 'beat on' Saxton?! Heck no. Wait, stand by. The only link is the word "High." Not nearly good enough to defy the EU. They're shown as parallel ranks, though - aren't they...? If for instance, the Grand General rank's original word was something like "Generalissimo", the guy can't very well translate THAT to Marshal, can he? Do Generalissimos outrank Field Marshals, though? And is it really a 'translation'? If so, how do you explain puns like "Knight Hammer"? Fleet Admirals have a very SPECIFIC level in the OOB already slashed out for them. That would be trusting the ISB, though, wouldn't it...? The same ISB that has a five-mile Executor, some fairly blatant garbling in its rank structure, and frightening numbers of torpedo spheres... Well, that's where the Moffs, Grand Moffs, Grand Admirals and a couple of spaces come in. By the time you reach Moff, you are almost a feudal lord of old (though the Emperor does watch you more closely than the average feudal lord,) with your own Fleets and Armies. The Moffs tend to report to civilian authorities, so that's buffers right there. The only trouble is, Moff ain't a military rank... most Moffs are high-ranking military officers, but their military rank, as I understand it, is independant of their title. And isn't it said somewhere that Surface Marshal is a typical rank for Moffs? Which would imply that it was above High General and High Admiral, and force Fleet Admiral up across into the parallel slot? To put one over the Moffs, though, he probably was elevated to the old Grand Moff position, or higher. Not at that point, no... this is assuming that High Admiral isn't parallel with the other "High" ranks, which I find problematic... it seems a lot more economical to swap round the ranks, and kriff the OOB... you simply don't need Fleet Admirals between Admirals and High Admirals... As I understand it, everyone in that game wears that Veers uniform. No matter where Brashin is, he most definitely is no four column guy. I'm not sure we should rely on that. IMHO, it makes it easier to explain "Grand General" as a rank in the first place, and also to explain what "General Carvin" is doing ruling the Empire after Endor... you mean to tell me there wasn't a single Marshal or senior Admiral left?! Probably the fighter games. It IS entirely possible for SW Basic to truly have no distinction between Army and Navy (and we added the distinction ourselves - but there's always the occasional joker that doesn't.) That's in fact the way the Chinese (and the related Japanese) rank system, for one goes. The palm goes to the Swedes, who used to insist that their naval officers, being army officers (with army ranks) had to wear spurs.... But in the GFFA, we have the Dorneans doing the whole no-distinction thing. It's pretty clear-cut that there are two rank systems in Basic, one apparently reserved for line officers in the 'navy', the other common to the 'army', and also Starfighter Command, Gunnery, 'blackshirts', and some other independant naval forces... Tell me more about Davip's promotion and why that shows that Commander = Brigadier. To be fair, I'm not sure about the appropriateness of translating that rank to Brigadier in English. It creates an impliance that there is a brigade level (read SWTC to see Saxton going ape over it again, even though brigades ARE supposed to be smaller than divisions / battlegroups.) But you still have to prove it. Davip is called "Commander" in Rebel Dream, where it's also remarked that the Lusankya really should have had a flag officer in command (anyone would think that the people running the war wanted the NR to fall...). Anyway, the implication of this is that Davip isn't a General or Admiral, and he can hardly be a navy Commander... he's probably more than a Captain, as well (otherwise why not 'Captain Davip'?). All in all, the implication seems to be that he's in the rank slot between Captain/Colonel and General/Admiral - ie, Commodore/Brigadier. By TUF, he's been promoted to Major General... this is treated by the characters as a normal promotion, implying that Davip is in an 'army-rank' branch of the military (probably Starfighter Command or gunnery) where Commander is the rank immediately below Major General. He has to outrank that "Commander" Jelon guy on the flagship as well, which means at the VERY LEAST Fel was a full Commander. Jelon could be a Lieutenant-Commander, too... A brevet promotion is possible, but Fel wasn't in any way disgraced after Nar Shadda... he continued in command of the Pride of the Senate, and when his transfer came through, Rosk thought he was going to get a Star Destroyer (perhaps a VicStar with a promotion to Commander?) - instead, he was sent to Caridia as chief instructor... it was the Rand Ecliptic mutiny that then saw Major Fel assigned to the 181st... JoruusCbaoth[b]: Also, I'll throw out a welcome back to [b]Thrawn_McEwok. Thanks! And I knew I'd seen somewhere that Moffs were typically Surface Marshals And in an ideal world, I'd like RAF ranks in there somewhere... Lucas and Zahn both seemed to use RAF ranks for Starfighters (and the EU has inherited things from WW2 like the tendancy for low-ranking officers to command squadrons, and for wings and groups to be real tactical formations)... unfortunately, the weight of evidence in favour of 'army' ranks is now too great... there do seem to have been some RAF-rank air/starfighter forces, but while some starfighter officers from Rebel forces incorporated into the NR could have retained their 'RAF' ranks, neither the Empire nor the NR used that pattern as a rule... As to the higher ranks... IMHO, we need a system that accomodates Surface Marshal, Grand General, and High General/High Admiral with as little jumping back and forth from General to Marshal as possible... also, IIRC, the "High" ranks were all Imperial creations (is this from the ISB, or just fanboy stuff?)... so they would make sense if they were all in the same echelon, aye? Especially as in the Alliance/NR, the Admiral of the Fleet and the multiple Fleet Admirals of the NJO are the highest naval ranks, equivalent to the Marshalls of Ground forces and Starfighter Command... The rl parity of an RAF Air Vice Marshal with a Rear Admiral is a different issue, IMHO - these aren't simultaneously-created ranks... As to army formations... Borealis: okay, so a Garrison under a Major General with a Corps HQ is sort of a baby Corps? More comments on this will follow... - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP :===8[#]8===: Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/12/04 2:59pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	So, out of curiosity, do we think that Fleet Admiral and Admiral of the Fleet are the same rank as in the real world or that they are seperate of each other? Personally, I think that it says something that only Ackbar has been refered to as a Admiral of the Fleet. Perhaps it is a special rank given to him because of his long years of service to the Rebel Alliance/New Republic? Any thoughts? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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JoruusCbaoth Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/12/04 3:47pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Nick I tend to think they're one and the same, unless Ackbar was given a kind of honorific promotion like John Pershing was, to General of the Armies of the United States. -----signature----- Orignal Fleet Junkie
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/12/04 5:01pm Subject: McEwok
	But do I 'beat on' Saxton?! Heck no. I don't really know you, McEwok. Check my date of entry, not all that ancient. If you don't do that stuff, the comment does not apply to you. In that case, it goes to anybody else who may have similar thoughts to you on this point, but still bash Saxton, OK? If there is nobody, then it doesn't apply to anyone. They're shown as parallel ranks, though - aren't they...? No. A High Admiral is on a Sector Group. A High General is on a Systems Army, which is below Sector Army. They are not exactly equal or parallel in my book. Do Generalissimos outrank Field Marshals, though? And is it really a 'translation'? If so, how do you explain puns like "Knight Hammer"? Conincidence or "joke re-routing." Translating a joke of an alien culture and language to keep it funny while somewhat remaining to the original intent of the joke. One user of Generalissimo is Stalin. I'm pretty sure he's higher than his field marshals. The point is the problem of translation. Maybe I pick another. Suppose, in the original language, the term was "Grossgeneral. (GrossAdmiral in German IIRC is Grand Admiral(" What can the man do? Stay true to the original? Or stay true to our own culture to make it understandable? That would be trusting the ISB, though, wouldn't it...? The same ISB that has a five-mile Executor, some fairly blatant garbling in its rank structure, and frightening numbers of torpedo spheres... Nobody ever said the ISB is perfect. But the ISB is also one of those who made a Real Effort to define the SW military structure. You may not defy it without reasonable cause. The only trouble is, Moff ain't a military rank... most Moffs are high-ranking military officers, but their military rank, as I understand it, is independant of their title. And isn't it said somewhere that Surface Marshal is a typical rank for Moffs? Which would imply that it was above High General and High Admiral, and force Fleet Admiral up across into the parallel slot? If the rank is independent from title, then it is even easier for Pellaeon to take over everything while being High Admiral. BOTH Surface Marshal and High Admiral (both approximately 6 Star ranks) are Moff-assumable Titles. Not at that point, no... this is assuming that High Admiral isn't parallel with the other "High" ranks, which I find problematic... it seems a lot more economical to swap round the ranks, and kriff the OOB... you simply don't need Fleet Admirals between Admirals and High Admirals... Yes you do. Because the Admirals are commanding Systems Forces (more or less flotilla equivalents.) So you need an insert of Fleet admiral to handle the fleet. Unless you want to rip up the system even more by insisting a Vice Admiral can command a Flotilla and go from there. IMHO, it makes it easier to explain "Grand General" as a rank in the first place, and also to explain what "General Carvin" is doing ruling the Empire after Endor... you mean to tell me there wasn't a single Marshal or senior Admiral left?! They are probably both officers that are far higher than commanders found in sectors. Davip is called "Commander" in Rebel Dream, where it's also remarked that the Lusankya really should have had a flag officer in command (anyone would think that the people running the war wanted the NR to fall...). Anyway, the implication of this is that Davip isn't a General or Admiral, and he can hardly be a navy Commander... he's probably more than a Captain, as well (otherwise why not 'Captain Davip'?). All in all, the implication seems to be that he's in the rank slot between Captain/Colonel and General/Admiral - ie, Commodore/Brigadier Forgive me if I remember incorrectly, but technically, a Commodore equivalent is already considered a flag officer. In the States, IIRC they don't really have the Commodore rank anymore. They do retain the Rear-Admiral, Lower Half (what a kludge to say really.) The NR has an extremely long history of allowing Generals to lead fleets. General Solo, General Bel Iblis, and of course General Antilles. To say that his Army-sounding rank barred him from being a flag officer is against the NR tradition. All an officer has to do to be above a naval Captain in SW is to be above Captain-Lieutenants, like Tabanne of Night Caller, Commander Convarion (who was stated as higher than a Captain-[Lieutenant]) which was promoted to full Captain... In fact, I could say with equal validity that their beef about Davip not being a flag officer can be used with equal validity to claim that he's a Commander in the naval equivalent sense. By TUF, he's been promoted to Major General... this is treated by the characters as a normal promotion, implying that Davip is in an 'army-rank' branch of the military (probably Starfighter Command or gunnery) where Commander is the rank immediately below Major General. How can you tell whether it is a normal promotion or not? Having never read the book, I wonder how you can tell what they think. I mean, even when Wedge promoted to General from WC (lower than Captain, as clearly defined in HTTE,) nobody screamed "Hey Wedge! You got a triple promotion!" or anything like that. [blockquote]Jelon could be a Lieutenant-Commander, too... A brevet promotion is possible, but Fel wasn't in any way disgraced after Nar Shadda... he continued in command of the Pride of the Senate, and when his transfer came through, Rosk thought he was going to get a Star Destroyer (perhaps a VicStar with a promotion to Commander?) - instead, he was sent to Caridia as chief instructor... it was the Rand Ecliptic mutiny that then saw Major Fel assigned to the 181st...[/blockquote] There are two ways to outrank people. By real rank or by time in rank. According to you, Fel doesn't have the former (which is really the best) and I doubt Fel is going to get it. Jelon, even as a full Commander, is apparently very junior to get the job as Admiral (probably really Commodore) Greelanx's aide - a job that's usually assigned to a Line Captain. Let's not make him any more junior. I see they didn't officially punish him (and since he technically didn't violate orders, I guess they had no reason to.) But a defeat like that can hardly be a shine on anyone's career. And so he didn't get the Star Destroyer he wanted (he stated his preference in The Hutt Gambit remember?) and was instead drummed back to be an instructor. There are two ways to view things when a fast-tracking officer gets diverted to some Academy. The less charitable interpretation is that because he didn't make any REAL mistakes in the action, they can't court-martial him or anything. But they were displeased, so after his tour of duty was legitimately over, they stripped him of his temporary promotion and shoved him into an Academy. He seemed to prefer to remain out, and most captains are allowed to remain in command if they wanted to. That he wasn't implies something not very positive was going on. [blockquote]And in an ideal world, I'd like RAF ranks in there somewhere... Lucas and Zahn both seemed to use RAF ranks for Starfighters (and the EU has inherited things from WW2 like the tendancy for low-ranking officers to command squadrons, and for wings and groups to be real tactical formations)... unfortunately, the weight of evidence in favour of 'army' ranks is now too great... there do seem to have been some RAF-rank air/starfighter forces, but while some starfighter officers from Rebel forces incorporated into the NR could have retained their 'RAF' ranks, neither the Empire nor the NR used that pattern as a rule...[/blockquote] I'm not going to go all ape because most translators prefer to translate Basic to American. [blockquote]As to the higher ranks... IMHO, we need a system that accomodates Surface Marshal, Grand General, and High General/High Admiral with as little jumping back and forth from General to Marshal as possible... also, IIRC, the "High" ranks were all Imperial creations (is this from the ISB, or just fanboy stuff?)... so they would make sense if they were all in the same echelon, aye? Especially as in the Alliance/NR, the Admiral of the Fleet and the multiple Fleet Admirals of the NJO are the highest naval ranks, equivalent to the Marshalls of Ground forces and Starfighter Command...[/blockquote] There is one hop and use of Marshal. I think we can call that the language. The High ranks are immortalized in the ISB, and their positions defined. The NR naval system is substantially different. For one thing, it is smaller. The Imperial system has at least 5 decks (Line, Squadron, Systems Force, Fleet, Sector Group) for a Sector Force ALONE. The NR system has only 3 decks (Task Force, Battlegroup, Fleet.) Individual sectors are probably lucky if they get their Old Republic complement (roughly Imp squadron strength equivalent.) Thus the NR can use less "High" ranks and fewer ranks in general to manage everything.
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/13/04 1:24pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Historically, we have seen very view Fleet Admirals in the NR navy. In fact, until Admiral Kre'fey was described as one in Yelsia, Ackbar was the only one mentioned. Basically, we know of three confirmed Fleet Admirals: Ackbar Sovv Kre'fey Now, during the height of the NR, we don't really know who was in the number two position under Ackbar. In the BFC, an Admiral Nantz is mentioned. While I do not have the quote handy, it gave me the impression that Nantz was someone pretty high up in Fleet Command. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 1/13/04 3:54pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Since you're discussing Earthian history, SW books are rife with World Wars warship names, the X-wing books in particular. Samples like, Steadfast, Invincible, Korolev, Renown, and plenty more I can't recall that I spotted in my encyclopedia years back that's now too dusty to go near again. -----signature----- Rock-a-by baby, on the treetop, Beaming with pride, the filth they hold, But when the wind blows, my temper implodes, High above a pit, filled with sharkticons, Down will come hardcover addicts, beaming no more. ©
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 1/13/04 5:29pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/13/04 5:34pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
	Borealis: I don't really know you, McEwok. Check my date of entry, not all that ancient. If you don't do that stuff, the comment does not apply to you. In that case, it goes to anybody else who may have similar thoughts to you on this point, but still bash Saxton, OK? If there is nobody, then it doesn't apply to anyone. OTOH, it would be possible IMHO to question Saxton by questioning his methodology.... I'm not saying it would be right, but as a POV, it might still be unimpeachable... [let's get this straight, though... I agree with Saxton most of the time...] No. A High Admiral is on a Sector Group. A High General is on a Systems Army, which is below Sector Army. They are not exactly equal or parallel in my book. Ah. All the same, for reasons that will become clear, I'd still rather flip the ranks... Conincidence or "joke re-routing." Translating a joke of an alien culture and language to keep it funny while somewhat remaining to the original intent of the joke. Hmph. One user of Generalissimo is Stalin. I'm pretty sure he's higher than his field marshals. "What on earth is that title? Translate it for me." - Joseph Stalin, on being offered the title of Generalissimo. Near as I can make out from Google, the superlative Generalissimo (Generalissimus) originally made sense inasmuch as the (earlier) rank of "Field Marshal" in the Russian Imperial Army was originally "General-Field-Marshal" (General-Feldmarshal, borrowing the Prussian Generalfeldmarschall )... both ranks being created by Peter the Great, with Generalissimo only being awarded three times under the Tsars... The introduction of "Marshal of the Soviet Union" (Marshal Sovetskogo Souza) obviously interrupted the regular line of "General" ranks, but the flattery of Stalin by reviving the Tsarist rank of Generalissimo for him, established for more than 200 years as a rank above 'Marshal', awarded to leading Russian military leaders, is quite different from the suggestion of introducing new 'general' ranks above the 'marshal' ranks... The point is the problem of translation. Maybe I pick another. Suppose, in the original language, the term was "Grossgeneral. (GrossAdmiral in German IIRC is Grand Admiral(" What can the man do? Stay true to the original? Or stay true to our own culture to make it understandable? We have "Grand General", though... why translate "High General" as though it's comparable to "High Admiral" rather than "Grand Admiral"? I guess I tend to assume that the rank systems are analogous to rl ones... at the very least, I'd like to 'translate' as "High Admiral" and "High General" in one bracket... I'm in danger of launching into a critique of Marain here (so darn what if the Minds are better at social control than Azad apexes?!), so be careful... Nobody ever said the ISB is perfect. But the ISB is also one of those who made a Real Effort to define the SW military structure. You may not defy it without reasonable cause. Why not quibble, though? In many places, the ISB doesn't map to rl or the rest of the EU that neatly - including in its rank structure, which includes lots of bizarre transpositions... If the rank is independent from title, then it is even easier for Pellaeon to take over everything while being High Admiral. But not a Moff. Moffs have military rank collateral with their post... so should Pellaeon - hence, something between High General and Grand Admiral... I'd like to make that "Fleet Admiral", ISB notwithstanding BOTH Surface Marshal and High Admiral (both approximately 6 Star ranks) are Moff-assumable Titles. Okay. All I can fall back on is the asymmetrical insertion of "High Admiral" and "High General"... it annoys me... in rl, "Fleet Admiral"/"Admiral of the Fleet" is the navy rank-equivalent of a Field Marshal... Yes you do. Because the Admirals are commanding Systems Forces (more or less flotilla equivalents.) So you need an insert of Fleet admiral to handle the fleet. Unless you want to rip up the system even more by insisting a Vice Admiral can command a Flotilla and go from there. Yes. Because flotillas are ridiculously small commands for Admirals. Especially if Commanders outrank Captains. They are probably both officers that are far higher than commanders found in sectors. And why not on Coruscant?! And they're taking orders from Coruscant?! And Carvin didn't get a promotion?! Forgive me if I remember incorrectly, but technically, a Commodore equivalent is already considered a flag officer. In the States, IIRC they don't really have the Commodore rank anymore. They do retain the Rear-Admiral, Lower Half (what a kludge to say really.) It's kinda ambiguous. IIRC, the Swedes have "High Colonels", who're clearly not general officers... there is a distinction between a Commodore/Brigadier/[Commander] and a 'real' Admiral/General... notwithstanding the fact that in the USA, 'Commodore' and 'Brigadier' have been 'rounded up' to 'Rear Admiral (Lower Half)' and 'Brigadier General'... The NR has an extremely long history of allowing Generals to lead fleets. General Solo, General Bel Iblis, and of course General Antilles. To say that his Army-sounding rank barred him from being a flag officer is against the NR tradition. Never denied that. All an officer has to do to be above a naval Captain in SW is to be above Captain-Lieutenants, like Tabanne of Night Caller, Commander Convarion (who was stated as higher than a Captain-[Lieutenant]) which was promoted to full Captain... Eh? I'm not sure what you're getting at here? In fact, I could say with equal validity that their beef about Davip not being a flag officer can be used with equal validity to claim that he's a Commander in the naval equivalent sense. Not in command of the Lady Lucy he isn't... How can you tell whether it is a normal promotion or not? Having never read the book, I wonder how you can tell what they think. I mean, even when Wedge promoted to General from WC (lower than Captain, as clearly defined in HTTE,) nobody screamed "Hey Wedge! You got a triple promotion!" or anything like that. Wedge's rank is a flub already? There are two ways to outrank people. By real rank or by time in rank. According to you, Fel doesn't have the former (which is really the best) and I doubt Fel is going to get it. Jelon, even as a full Commander, is apparently very junior to get the job as Admiral (probably really Commodore) Only an American would think that... Greelanx's aide - a job that's usually assigned to a Line Captain. Let's not make him any more junior. Why not? IMHO, Fel could easily have time-in-rank over Jelon... and even if not, doesn't a ship carry a certain weight as a metaphysical object? I see they didn't officially punish him (and since he technically didn't violate orders, I guess they had no reason to.) But a defeat like that can hardly be a shine on anyone's career. And so he didn't get the Star Destroyer he wanted (he stated his preference in The Hutt Gambit remember?) and was instead drummed back to be an instructor. There are two ways to view things when a fast-tracking officer gets diverted to some Academy. The less charitable interpretation is that because he didn't make any REAL mistakes in the action, they can't court-martial him or anything. But they were displeased, so after his tour of duty was legitimately over, they stripped him of his temporary promotion and shoved him into an Academy. He seemed to prefer to remain out, and most captains are allowed to remain in command if they wanted to. That he wasn't implies something not very positive was going on. He still had Tarkin's patronage... I'm not going to go all ape because most translators prefer to translate Basic to American. It's not simply that - it's the implication that there are two, as opposed to three, standard military rank-systems in the Empire/NR There is one hop and use of Marshal. I think we can call that the language. "kriff off" The High ranks are immortalized in the ISB, and their positions defined. Why? I take it you don't believe that the 'five mile fallacy' is similarly cast-iron...? The NR naval system is substantially different. For one thing, it is smaller. The Imperial system has at least 5 decks (Line, Squadron, Systems Force, Fleet, Sector Group) for a Sector Force ALONE. The NR system has only 3 decks (Task Force, Battlegroup, Fleet.) Individual sectors are probably lucky if they get their Old Republic complement (roughly Imp squadron strength equivalent.) Thus the NR can use less "High" ranks and fewer ranks in general to manage everything. Now this is what gets me. If a Line goes to a Line Captain (which in the way the ISB presents it, seems absurdly schematized - I'd rather make a line at least have one ImpStar in it... in rl Commanders and even Lieutenant-Commanders are entirely capable of commanding small-ship flotillas) then most Squadrons can go to Commodores, and Systems Forces (as though each system has the same weight?) and Fleets can easily be carried by Rear-Admirals, Vice-Admirals and Admirals... Sector Groups stay with High Admirals, leaving Fleet Admirals free for higher commands... - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP :===8[#]8===: Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
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