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Author	Topic: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)
Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/13/04 7:47pm Subject: Thrawn...
	Hmph. You mean, you've never seen something like say a translated Japanese anime, which comes from a very different culture, with its own puns and traditions and even the sentence structure itself is inversed? To make something like that understandable is relatively easy. To keep its flavor in the translation is the art. The introduction of "Marshal of the Soviet Union" (Marshal Sovetskogo Souza) obviously interrupted the regular line of "General" ranks, but the flattery of Stalin by reviving the Tsarist rank of Generalissimo for him, established for more than 200 years as a rank above 'Marshal', awarded to leading Russian military leaders, is quite different from the suggestion of introducing new 'general' ranks above the 'marshal' ranks... SODwise, however, we don't really know the history of any rank in the SW galaxy. For all we know, Grand General also was a revival of some ancient rank that was temporarily put into disuse. I guess I tend to assume that the rank systems are analogous to rl ones... at the very least, I'd like to 'translate' as "High Admiral" and "High General" in one bracket... Perhaps that's a better translation (in terms of consistency to our culture,) but it is not the translation that the EU translators have chosen. So when you read their translations, you shouldn't whine about contradictions that seem to show up because your translation is different from the "norm." Such as any problem that High Admiral outranks High General in the EU. Yes. Because flotillas are ridiculously small commands for Admirals. Why? A Fleet admiral commands a fleet, so the guy under him can only be relegated to commanding something smaller. And why not on Coruscant?! And they're taking orders from Coruscant?! And Carvin didn't get a promotion?! I'm sure not EVERY senior officer sits on his butt in Coruscant. Such as Thrawn. He's a Grand Admiral for darn sure, and he isn't anywhere NEAR Coruscant. It's kinda ambiguous. IIRC, the Swedes have "High Colonels", who're clearly not general officers... there is a distinction between a Commodore/Brigadier/[Commander] and a 'real' Admiral/General... notwithstanding the fact that in the USA, 'Commodore' and 'Brigadier' have been 'rounded up' to 'Rear Admiral (Lower Half)' and 'Brigadier General'... Yeah, it is kind of twitchy, but Commodores do get to command entire task forces in the NR (see BFC) and entire squadrons in the Imperial Navy. That helps. Eh? I'm not sure what you're getting at here? You want Davip to be senior to a Captain. I tell you in SW, he doesn't need to be any kind of flag officer for that. Not in command of the Lady Lucy he isn't... You use what you have left. Only an American would think that... Trust me, I'm not an American. And I was actually going by the ISB's stated standards. [blockquote]Why not? IMHO, Fel could easily have time-in-rank over Jelon... and even if not, doesn't a ship carry a certain weight as a metaphysical object?[/blockquote] Prestige is important, but in a less official capacity than things like time-in-rank or real rank. It is technically possible for Fel to have time-in-rank over Jelon, but that's not likely. Fel is obviously a fast-tracker, so he runs up the ranks fast. It'd be a great coincidence if Jelon is also a fast tracker. The bad thing about fast-tracking is that you NEVER have a lot of time-in-rank, so every time you hit a new rank, you are junior to everyone else in that particular rank. [blockquote]He still had Tarkin's patronage...[/blockquote] At the time of the The Hutt Gambuit, Tarkin probably wasn't quite as powerful as in the ANH era when he built the Death Star and proposed his little doctrine. [blockquote]Why? I take it you don't believe that the 'five mile fallacy' is similarly cast-iron...?[/blockquote] Overriden by canon, that one is. [blockquote]Now this is what gets me. If a Line goes to a Line Captain (which in the way the ISB presents it, seems absurdly schematized[/blockquote] Schematization isn't always bad :-) [blockquote] - I'd rather make a line at least have one ImpStar in it... in rl Commanders and even Lieutenant-Commanders are entirely capable of commanding small-ship flotillas)[/blockquote] The level at which they teach you and expect you to know how to do certain things varies on the military. As a simple example, in the Soviet military, officers do the maintenance. In Western militaries, the job generally falls on the NCO. You shouldn't project our experiences on them too much. [blockquote]then most Squadrons can go to Commodores, and Systems Forces (as though each system has the same weight?)[/blockquote] Despite the name, the Systems Force is really a pool of resources that has to cover many systems. Except in the most major of emergencies, the max they send is about a Squadron. Systems Forces are several times larger and with many times the responsibility and complexity to that of a Squadron (which would likely be all within at least the same system.) Having both commanded by Commodores would be a very steep learning curve for the rank. [blockquote]and Fleets can easily be carried by Rear-Admirals, Vice-Admirals and Admirals... Sector Groups stay with High Admirals, leaving Fleet Admirals free for higher commands.[/blockquote] Oh, so AFTER you crammed such a major rise in responsibility and power within a single rank, you now spread Fleet over THREE ranks. This makes sense ... sure ... The ISB people actually thought it out a lot more clearly than you (looking at results.) From Captain to Squadron Commander, your responsibility grows incrementally to cover more ships in a tactical battle. But then They spaced out Squadron several ranks away from Systems Force because they are aware a Systems Force is a SERIOUS jump in responsibiity. It also marks a change in style, because squadron marks the end of usual front-line command, instead turning into an administrative chess game played over many systems. In other words, it marks the change from the Tactical to the Operational level. Being a staffer for the Systems Force level during your Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral portions will help you gain the knowledge needed for your eventual command. Then they let the kind of responsibility that started in Systems Force level grow incrementally again, until the Sector Group, where your concern is with a whole sector. Then it goes to the Moffs, the Strategic Commander of the Sector.
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 1/14/04 10:15am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	You mean, you've never seen something like say a translated Japanese anime, which comes from a very different culture, with its own puns and traditions and even the sentence structure itself is inversed? At the same time, when we get statements as specific as... As her last order before launching, Daala took the time to rechristen her dark ship, adding a letter to call the Super Star Destroyer the Knight Hammer... ... I think we're entitled to assume that we can base SW terminology on rl in kinda sophisticated ways... To make something like that understandable is relatively easy. To keep its flavor in the translation is the art. Sure. And to me, "High Admiral" above "Fleet Admiral" tastes bad. SODwise, however, we don't really know the history of any rank in the SW galaxy. For all we know, Grand General also was a revival of some ancient rank that was temporarily put into disuse. Not saying it wasn't. But at the same time, the rank is "Field Marshal", not "Marshal of the Galactic Empire" or "General-Fieldmarshal". And Brashin commands stormtroopers. Which since they're outside the regular military chain of command, suggests he's a stormtrooper himself... Perhaps that's a better translation (in terms of consistency to our culture,) but it is not the translation that the EU translators have chosen. In one place - the ISB, which for all its successes, gets in knots with ranks, and also contains stuff like a five-mile Ex and way more torpedo spheres than are found in other sources - or in any situation where the rebs would be likely to win the war.... There's not one other place, AFAIK, where a Fleet Admiral is categorically said to be below a High Admiral... and in the NR, it's the "High" ranks that have been knocked out across the board, with Fleet Admiral being the highest navy rank, parallel to the Marshals... I'm sure I've heard it said that the "High" ranks were all Imperial inventions... anyone got a quote? So when you read their translations, you shouldn't whine about contradictions that seem to show up because your translation is different from the "norm." Such as any problem that High Admiral outranks High General in the EU. Okay, I'll give you that. Except it's not simply to do with "my translation"... I don't think that the ISB's positioning of High Admirals above Fleet Admirals really sits easily with common sense, rl parallels, or the rest of the EU... Why? A Fleet admiral commands a fleet, so the guy under him can only be relegated to commanding something smaller. Why does a "Fleet Admiral" command a fleet? If in the USN, Fleets are always commanded by Fleet Admirals, then maybe that's fair enough... but "fleet" is a very slippy term... in the rest of the world, the direct association was originally between a single Admiral of the Fleet and a nation's entire navy... that went out about 1750 when people started deploying more than one Fleet at once... though in the GFFA, the single NR "Admiral of the Fleet"/"Fleet Admiral" (Ackbar) was originally the commander of all naval forces, and only Sien Sovv's incompetence and the proliferation of strategic fleets containing hundreds or thousands of fleets necessitated elevating one or two more officers to the rank of Fleet Admiral... I'm sticking with the idea that an Imperial Fleet Admiral should be one of the few hundred highest-ranking officers in the Imperial Starfleet, not one of tens of thousands of people with a handful of ImpStars to their name... I'm sure not EVERY senior officer sits on his butt in Coruscant. Such as Thrawn. He's a Grand Admiral for darn sure, and he isn't anywhere NEAR Coruscant. Aye, but a 'mere' General?! Yeah, it is kind of twitchy, but Commodores do get to command entire task forces in the NR (see BFC) and entire squadrons in the Imperial Navy. That helps. Helps what? You use what you have left. And promote him to Major-General? Nah. And can you seriously see a ship the size of the Lady Lucy (and remember, the ship hasn't seen combat before Borealis) with an on-board chain-of-command including only four officer grades. You seriously think that's likely? Trust me, I'm not an American. My bad. No hard feelings? And I was actually going by the ISB's stated standards. On what? Americanisms? It is technically possible for Fel to have time-in-rank over Jelon, but that's not likely. Fel is obviously a fast-tracker, so he runs up the ranks fast. It'd be a great coincidence if Jelon is also a fast tracker. The bad thing about fast-tracking is that you NEVER have a lot of time-in-rank, so every time you hit a new rank, you are junior to everyone else in that particular rank. Which would you rather? Fel was fast-tracked to Major, and has a few years' seniority in the rank? Or he was fast-tracked to Captain, and has only a few months' seniority? At the time of the The Hutt Gambuit, Tarkin probably wasn't quite as powerful as in the ANH era when he built the Death Star and proposed his little doctrine. IIRC, he was already building it - already Grand Moff and Governor of Oversector Outer... Overriden by canon, that one is. And the placing of "Commander" as a rank? This is a difference of POV. I don't treat canon and continuity in such a mechanistic way. Which is part of the reason we're disagreeing, I think... Schematization isn't always bad :-) No. But it is when you insist that every flotilla has to have a senior officer in command. You'd be faced with every corvette-pack commander outranking every ImpStar captain. The level at which they teach you and expect you to know how to do certain things varies on the military. As a simple example, in the Soviet military, officers do the maintenance. In Western militaries, the job generally falls on the NCO. You shouldn't project our experiences on them too much. Name me a rl fleet that, in theory or still less practice, has ever thought that it was smart to place a senior officer in charge of every unit of two bumboats and a pinnace just because it's a nominal tactical element... apart from everything else, there aren't enough experienced captains... especially for commanders improvising combat organization in wartime... Despite the name, the Systems Force is really a pool of resources that has to cover many systems. Except in the most major of emergencies, the max they send is about a Squadron. Fair enough - but Squadron and Systems Force being how big, exactly? A fraction of the Sector Fleet's 24 ImpStars, anyway, I'd imagine... Systems Forces are several times larger and with many times the responsibility and complexity to that of a Squadron (which would likely be all within at least the same system.) Having both commanded by Commodores would be a very steep learning curve for the rank. You misunderstand me... what I was saying was that Commodores can command most Squadrons, while Rear-Admirals, Vice-Admirals and Admirals can surely between them carry a variety of Systems Force and Fleet commands. Otherwise... if Commodores have Squadrons and Fleet Admirals have Fleets, the Imperial Navy is essentially limiting three flag grades to Systems Force command, organizing its forces so that most of its flag officers don't get given commands and there is no effective battlefield division of the Star Destroyer line-of-battle... all of which seems insane... The ISB people actually thought it out a lot more clearly than you (looking at results.) From Captain to Squadron Commander, your responsibility grows incrementally to cover more ships in a tactical battle. While compressing all Rear-Admirals, Vice-Admirals and Admirals into the narrow billet of commanding and staffing for Systems Forces? But then They spaced out Squadron several ranks away from Systems Force because they are aware a Systems Force is a SERIOUS jump in responsibiity. It also marks a change in style, because squadron marks the end of usual front-line command, instead turning into an administrative chess game played over many systems. In other words, it marks the change from the Tactical to the Operational level. The Imperial Starfleet has no 'strategic' level, then? And no effective field command above the squadron, either. I guess that explains why they got pasted... Isn't that what bureaucrats are for, anyway? Or staff officers?! Rather than combat-experienced fleet commanders... Being a staffer for the Systems Force level during your Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral portions will help you gain the knowledge needed for your eventual command. Knowledge of how to shuffle data. Then they let the kind of responsibility that started in Systems Force level grow incrementally again, until the Sector Group, where your concern is with a whole sector. Then it goes to the Moffs, the Strategic Commander of the Sector. So if you want an armoured fist of six ImpStars, who do you put in command? And what do you call it? And how does it fit into the chain of command? You seem so passionate about this - were you involved in producing the ISB? But no hard feelings, aye... in most parts, it works... - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP "To write one Solo twin as an angstbunny, Master Skywalker, might be considered unfortunate. To write BOTH that way looks like carelessness." BEIGE AND IRON!! Awesomeness is victorious on all fronts!
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/14/04 12:55pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Borleias, brevet promotion - I like it! Cheers for the Rank translation page heads up, too. I must say that I don't comprehend Saxton's workings, but then I wouldn't understand the mathematics that his doctorate was based on either, so I always give him leeway I seem to recall that the Col. under Pellaeon was a full colonel...but I'll have to check that when I get home tomorrow. Perhaps my solution of the problem with Fel's rank could be tied into your solution. I'm only theorising, not proclaiming my decision, but it seems reasonable that he could, as you suggest, put one career on hold temporarily so as to concentrate on the other. If, as you posit, Fel held a brevet rank in one service, might he not have held it in the Navy, rather than the Starfighter Corps? This would have given him a temporary rank advantage over Navy counterparts, but subsequently permitted him to follow the career path we see. I don't know the story, since I've nae been following the NJO, but might he have been acting under the auspices of the ISB or Intel? If so, he might have received temporary (again) authority to outrank his superiors for the extent of his mission. Pelranius, that's Grand Admiral Doenitz you're thinking of. Named by Hitler as his successor shortly before he committed suicide. I concur with Borleias on the issue of garrisons. If I recall correctly, the garrison strength is only about 4,000, which would only require a regimental or brigade level of command. BUT I also seem to recall that each garrison is expected to be able to serve as HQ for an entire Corps of Imp troops if necessary. I.e. that these garrisons were effectively Corps Headquarters, not just garrisons. Ah, I've reached Borleias' transcription...what I've said is superfluous. On the issue of unit sizes...if I recall correctly, the Prussians in the Waterloo campaign had several "brigades" in each corps. However, their brigades were about the size of most other nations' divisions. ThrawnMcEwok, I quite agree that there's a whole hell of a mess in the OT when it comes to ranks. Nor am I fully convinced by Saxton's seven wide rank plaque theory. In fact, watching ESB last year, a friend said he thought Piett had a plaque 8 wide in one scene. Must go back and check that. Nonetheless, he's prepared to put a lot more time and effort into it than I am, so I tend to let him daunt me Just to throw something in for you chaps upset by the idea of going General - Field Marshall - Grand General. It isn't quite the same, but in German armies the rank of FM is actually Generalfeldmarschall, the word 'General' never leaves the nomenclature at all. Don't know much about 'General Carvin' myself, but was the source he turned up in written by an American? If so...well, they don't have marshals. The author would simply use the rank system that all Americans know, i.e. that after the rank of Colonel, everybody is a general. The highest rank those chaps had is five star, General of the Armies, if I'm not incorrect. AdmiralNick22, perhaps Ackbar's title is the equivalent of the above. But referring to the ENTIRE NR or Alliance fleet in the singular, even though it's composed of numerous fleets. -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/14/04 1:27pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	CaptainArdiff: Ackbar's position in the Rebel Alliance/New Republic was unique. During the Rebellion, he was just the commander of the Rebel Fleet. After Endor, he became the Supreme Commander of all New Republic military forces. Yet, he also still continued as the Fleet commander as well. He was a ubercommander to say the least. Oh, and on an interesting sidenote, the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook (WEG) describes the Mon Calamari shipyards as being defended by, "heavy cruisers, starfighters, anti-ship artillery, force shields, and the equivilant of a full division of Rebel infantry." Since we had a discussion awhile back about the reasons the Empire did not attack Calamari after it joined the Rebellion, I figured this was interesting. While the fleet orbiting Calamari probably consisted of no more than several Mon Cal cruisers and a assortment of lessor vessels, perhaps a large amount of "anti-ship artillery" was sufficent enough to prevent the Empire from attacking the planet for the time being. Its just a hypothesis, but what do you guys think? Secondly, does anyone know how many ships were in a standard Imperial battle line and in a Imperial squadron? I believe that it is mentioned in the Imperial Sourcebook (WEG), but I do not own a copy. A Rebel Alliance battle line consisted of up to 10 Mon Cal cruisers with a varying amount of support vessels. Is the Imperial one of a similar size? --Adm. Nick -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/14/04 1:28pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Guys, calm down! A flotilla isn't necessarily a ridiculously small command for an admiral. Nor does an 'Admiral' have to be literally an admiral. What do we have? We've got a Line under a Line Captain (give or take a rank to allow for illness, casualties, favouritism, and so on). A squadron under a Commodore, and a fleet under a Fleet Admiral. Therefore, we've got a nebulous gap in the middle filled by several ranks (Rear, Vice- and (full) Admiral) with one name for the formation -'flotilla'. This flotilla need not have the same consistency throughout the Empire. In the Athenian Navy during the fifth century BC there were occasions when 3 strategoi commanded 10 ships (Battle of Sybota), and when one strategos commanded 20 or more on his own (Phormio at Naupaktos). There were only 10 strategoi elected each year. Moreover, unlike a modern command structure, there was only one rank system at the top. There were taxiarchs (Colonels/Brigadiers) and ship commanders, but taskforces varied in size quite drastically. In theory a 'flotilla' in an 'Oversector' could well contain more and better ships than a 'fleet' in a 'Sector'...and under a lower ranking officer, too. One could be a Rear Admiral commanding an unimportant and small flotilla, or a highly prestigious Admiral commanding a flotilla ordered to eliminate a significant threat. The numerous levels of Admiral allow a chap being groomed for promotion to Fleet Admiral both to work his way up slowly through the various levels of command, and to be placed in charge of a Fleet, since he outranks all the Commodores beneath him. Here's something else. How many admirals were at Jutland? 4? All people remember are Jellicoe and Beatty for Britain, and Hipper and Scheer for Germany. But there were hordes of subordinate admirals, each with his flag on one of the dreadnoughts. Every four dreadnoughts - at least - had an Admiral, and there were fifty or so (including battlecruisers) in this battle. This gives a fair number of Admirals who have a role to play in a fleet conflict, but aren't actually in charge of the whole caboodle. ThrawnMcEwok, I concur that High General and High Admiral being on the same level would be good. But on the other hand I also feel that having High Admiral below Admiral of the Fleet would be weird. In one place - the ISB, which for all its successes, gets in knots with ranks, and also contains stuff like a five-mile Ex and way more torpedo spheres than are found in other sources - or in any situation where the rebs would be likely to win the war.... The Rebellion never had a chance in defeating the Empire! With the very nature of the fleet, a quick sweep of uninhabited systems in a sector would swiftly uncover a hidden rebel base. The sweep would be relatively safe if sufficient forces were used...say 6 Impstars, and supporting ships. The explanation I had heard posited was civil war leads to the loss of most Executor size craft, and a marked decrease in resources available for police actions. This lets the 'insignificant rebellion' feed off the Empire's ragged edges and grow into a behemoth. No. But it is when you insist that every flotilla has to have a senior officer in command. You'd be faced with every corvette-pack commander outranking every ImpStar captain. I totally concur. Oops - gotta go! -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/14/04 10:00pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Bump -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/15/04 12:23am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	... I think we're entitled to assume that we can base SW terminology on rl in kinda sophisticated ways... Yes, actually sometimes the pun is remade. Sure. And to me, "High Admiral" above "Fleet Admiral" tastes bad. Well, and I think Imperial-class sounds totally lousy and originated from the most stupid of brainbugs. It does not mean it is not the canon translation chosen for the ship class. Not saying it wasn't. But at the same time, the rank is "Field Marshal", not "Marshal of the Galactic Empire" or "General-Fieldmarshal". And Brashin commands stormtroopers. Which since they're outside the regular military chain of command, suggests he's a stormtrooper himself... So, your point? In one place - the ISB, which for all its successes, gets in knots with ranks, and also contains stuff like a five-mile Ex and way more torpedo spheres than are found in other sources - or in any situation where the rebs would be likely to win the war.... There's not one other place, AFAIK, where a Fleet Admiral is categorically said to be below a High Admiral... and in the NR, it's the "High" ranks that have been knocked out across the board, with Fleet Admiral being the highest navy rank, parallel to the Marshals... I'm sure I've heard it said that the "High" ranks were all Imperial inventions... anyone got a quote? The 5-mile Ex is EVERYWHERE. If I trashed any story or source that mentioned the 5 mile Ex, I'd be left with a miserably short list. As for the torpedo spheres, they were just powerful and dedicated planetary shield busters. The NR needs fewer ranks due to its smaller military. That gives them a choice of what to trash. With only a 3-tier deck, Fleet Admiral is more than enough. If the "High" ranks were all developed by the Empire, then they may put them anywhere they wish, would they? Okay, I'll give you that. Except it's not simply to do with "my translation"... I don't think that the ISB's positioning of High Admirals above Fleet Admirals really sits easily with common sense, rl parallels, or the rest of the EU... Well, you have yet to establish that. But I'm waiting. Why does a "Fleet Admiral" command a fleet? If in the USN, Fleets are always commanded by Fleet Admirals, then maybe that's fair enough... In fact, IIRC, Fleet Admiral (5-stars) are more honorary than real. Congress handed out a few of them in WWII, and that's about it. but "fleet" is a very slippy term... in the rest of the world, the direct association was originally between a single Admiral of the Fleet and a nation's entire navy... that went out about 1750 when people started deploying more than one Fleet at once... though in the GFFA, the single NR "Admiral of the Fleet"/"Fleet Admiral" (Ackbar) was originally the commander of all naval forces, and only Sien Sovv's incompetence and the proliferation of strategic fleets containing hundreds or thousands of fleets necessitated elevating one or two more officers to the rank of Fleet Admiral... I'm sticking with the idea that an Imperial Fleet Admiral should be one of the few hundred highest-ranking officers in the Imperial Starfleet, not one of tens of thousands of people with a handful of ImpStars to their name... When your total mobile fleet is only worth about 5 sector groups in the old Imperial system, you can afford to use only 1 Fleet Admiral and dump the higher stuff altogether. As for your idea, sorry, I'm afraid the Imps don't agree with you. Aye, but a 'mere' General?! General used by itself can be VERY general ranging over every "XXX general" rank. Helps what? The idea of Commodore being rated as a "flag rank" in the NR. Then because the NR does not place any great blocks to stop other non-naval branches from fleet command, its equivalents would also be flag rank. Thus, if they are bitching about Davip not being flag rank, he cannot be a Commodore-equivalent or above. [blockquote]And promote him to Major-General? Nah. And can you seriously see a ship the size of the Lady Lucy (and remember, the ship hasn't seen combat before Borealis) with an on-board chain-of-command including only four officer grades.[/blockquote] Actually, I'm sure that under the direction of General Wedge Antilles, the old Lusankya was in active duty pre-NJO. IIRC, it destroyed Pellaeon's Reaper in one of those battles that are only written in the Chronologies. All too many vessels in SW are piloted with "too few ranks." The Lusankya under the Imps had Captain Drysso. After that it is already Lieutenant Waroen. Three-level command Captain-Lieutenant-Ensign is sadly all too common among SW vessels. If he did well, they could have promoted him to finally give him the rank he deserves. [blockquote]On what? Americanisms?[/blockquote] We all know Americans wrote / translated most of Star Wars. But it doesn't matter. It is stated in the ISB that the Line Captain is the proper adjutant rank to the Squadron Commander. Thus that is the Imperial standard, regardless of who translated the ISB. [blockquote]Which would you rather? Fel was fast-tracked to Major, and has a few years' seniority in the rank? Or he was fast-tracked to Captain, and has only a few months' seniority?[/blockquote] Why this false dilemma? I'm thinking Fel was fast-tracked to Major, then temp promoted to Captain. That will be more consistent than your kludge that Fel assumed command and outranked someone under something as edgy as "time-in rank." Most would prefer at least one real rank of difference. [blockquote]Name me a rl fleet that, in theory or still less practice, has ever thought that it was smart to place a senior officer in charge of every unit of two bumboats and a pinnace just because it's a nominal tactical element... apart from everything else, there aren't enough experienced captains... especially for commanders improvising combat organization in wartime...[/blockquote] Your shortages do not necessarily apply to the Imperials at the time of creating the OOB. Please remember that. It is all a matter of extent. Nobody complains when a cruiser squadron commander outranks a battleship or carrier captain even if the squadron put together may not outweigh the battleship or carrier. But when it comes to corvettes, people suddenly scream. The difference is that a Line is a set of SEVERAL maneuvering elements, while a Star Destroyer is but one. The multiple elements need experience and training to coordinate to best effect, unlike a Captain, who only needs to think about himself and his one ship. [blockquote]You misunderstand me... what I was saying was that Commodores can command most Squadrons, while Rear-Admirals, Vice-Admirals and Admirals can surely between them carry a variety of Systems Force and Fleet commands. Otherwise... if Commodores have Squadrons and Fleet Admirals have Fleets, the Imperial Navy is essentially limiting three flag grades to Systems Force command, organizing its forces so that most of its flag officers don't get given commands and there is no effective battlefield division of the Star Destroyer line-of-battle... all of which seems insane...[/blockquote] My misread. The Star Destroyers are being split quite effectively. The Sector has 24. Which is split into 4 units of 6 (the fleet.) One more split for 3 in every Force Superiority, and a final split to ensure every battle squadron gets one. [blockquote]While compressing all Rear-Admirals, Vice-Admirals and Admirals into the narrow billet of commanding and staffing for Systems Forces?[/blockquote] Not all. The Fleet and Sector Group level needs staffers too. The more important thing is the grooming process, where you are being groomed into Operational Commander. The transition takes time. In other places, when you go from what your military unit calls the "tactical" to the "operational," you take time off into an Academy - for the Soviets it is Voroshilov. The Imps don't seem to have this kind of advanced Academy stuff, so you take your time and learn on the job. [blockquote]The Imperial Starfleet has no 'strategic' level, then? And no effective field command above the squadron, either. I guess that explains why they got pasted...[/blockquote] The operational eventually blends into the strategic - the blending is subtle enough that until the 70s or so, the West didn't even really think there WAS an operational level of war. At the Fleet level, the FTS and Force Support units are introduced. At the Sector Group, the Deepdock Fleet. With things like that, the blending is slow and gradual. For "field command" above squadron, it can happen. But for day-to-day stuff, squadron is highest. If a Systems Force commander wants to send more to a battle, the procedure is to call his Moff, and let him make the call. If a certain system is in such deep shit it requires more than a squadron to suppress, it is probably big enough to let the Moff in on the situation anyway. If the Moff orders your whole System Force in, then you can probably take command. [blockquote]Isn't that what bureaucrats are for, anyway? Or staff officers?! Rather than combat-experienced fleet commanders...[/blockquote] At some point in every military, even the most "operator" of officers have to go and do some staffwork. Why did you think Wedge Antilles fought like a Rancor against the idea of promotion for years anyway? You don't really want bureaucrats managing all your staffwork. They often don't have a grasp of combat realities. A suitable blending of combat officers is needed to give the plans an aspect of realism. [blockquote]Knowledge of how to shuffle data.[/blockquote] Kicking a person into staff is not solely to make a fine combat officer a beaureaucrat. It is also a form of apprenticeship, of learning how to plan operations at the new level. The good operators want to get out, so they work hard, learn the tricks and come back out as a commander. Some people find they like staffwork, so they stay. Purely theoretically, Imp officers go through several stages in their careers. They come out of the Academy as an Ensign or at most a junior lieutenant. If they aren't fast-tracked, they'd spend years commanding small sections. In combat, their obligations only extend to making sure their section does its part and follows orders. As they promote, they merely make sure bigger and bigger sections do their part. But they are still being components of the whole. Then comes the grooming process to make you a Captain. Suddenly, your responsibility grows. You are now making the decisions for your ship. You are responsible for your whole crew. In other words, you are beginning to have some real autonomy. This new autonomy requires some major grooming. But you are still taking your orders - you are to take a very specific amount of force and apply it to a particular objective. You don't have to worry about whether the amount of force being allocated is enough - it is not your concern. Your goal is taking what you do have and making the best tactical decisions out of them. As you rise to Line Captain, then Commodore, you get more forces under you. But you are still basically doing the same thing. In short, you are thinking TACTICALLY, only about what's happening in your own battle. Then comes the final test - the rise to Systems Force. You are no longer given specific orders and objectives. Instead, they give you a pool of ships called a Force. They then give really fudgy orders like "Maintain Order over Six Systems." You start having to decide - what problems are you going to even try to solve? In what order? How much force do you allocate to each problem? Do you keep a reserve? Do you use Augmentation to quietly reinforce your battle squadron to three Star Destroyers (all you have.) When do you call for help, in that matter. Finally, you are thinking operationally. These jumps do not occur overnight. Thus rank spacing to ensure proper grooming is very important. [blockquote]So if you want an armoured fist of six ImpStars, who do you put in command? And what do you call it? And how does it fit into the chain of command?[/blockquote] If a Systems Force commander reads the report from his Squadron leaders that tell him a fist of six ImpStars was needed, he'd phone his Moff. His Moff assesses the situation, and decides whether the situation is really worth sending one fourth of his heavy combat power on. If it is, he drafts a mission detail. Six Star Destroyers plus their escorts almost means a Fleet. He's probably going to wind up calling one of his Fleet Admirals (probably the originating Systems Admiral's superior) to go and shut that offending planet down for good. With that done, the Moff and his staff tries to redeploy their remaining assets to cover the gap caused by the over-concentration of an entire fleet against a single planet. If I made the ISB, the Executor would be 11 miles long. I'd also shut you guys up by telling you EXACTLY what the Vice and Rear Admirals are doing. :-)
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/15/04 1:07pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Does nayone know how many Star Destroyers were in a standard Imperial squadron? I have been trying to figure out how large the fleet stationed at Mon Calamari was during the Rebellion. It was described as large enough to take out a Imperial squadron. My hypothesis to why the Empire did not attack Mon Cal is simple. I beleive the combination of a Rebel defense fleet, several wings of starfighters, planetary shields, and the many "anti-orbital" weapons were a strong enough defense that the Empire did not what to waste the manpower and material to take it. Now, that doesn't mean that they could not take it. I have no doubt that had Palpatine really wanted to destroy Mon Cal that he could of. I just think that he decided that it was not worth the cost. Any thoughts? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 1/15/04 1:47pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	According to the ISB a battlesquadron contained one ISD and twelve to thirty-five escort-vessels. As for Palpatine not attacking Mon Calamari, he was waiting till his DeathStar was operational. -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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Lord_Darth_Bob Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 1/15/04 6:14pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Minutae: Stalin had himself promoted to Marshal of the Soviet Union before promoting himself to Generalissimo, a rank he had designated personally for himself. Stalin, of course, was not really part of the Red Army, not that that stopped him. So, as far as the Reds are concerned, Marshal is clearly a grade beneath "Generalissimo." Some note worthy men to whom "Generalissimo" has been assigned are General Francisco Franco Bahamonde, the Caudillo of Spain, and Chiang Kai-shek of Nationalist China. Credit goes to Thief for explaining this in a protocol and political personal correspondence in the past. -----signature----- Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon. Fleet Junkie - Saxtonian Bulldog Uncivilized Debater
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/15/04 11:39pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	There's the German Grand Admiral rank, though for obvious reasons it isn't used today. Also, does anyone care to work out how Vong ranks correspond to Imperial/NR/real world military ranks? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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JoruusCbaoth Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/16/04 8:11am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	As best as I can tell, YV rankings seem more like the Catholic Church or a tribal system than anything resembling a professional military. There might be established leadership at the top, but down from there, campaign experience and combat prowess seem to be the only thing seperating those at the top from those at the bottom. -----signature----- Orignal Fleet Junkie
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 1/16/04 10:14am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/16/04 11:19am (2 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
	Borealis: Yes, actually sometimes the pun is remade. Are you sure...? Well, and I think Imperial-class sounds totally lousy and originated from the most stupid of brainbugs. It does not mean it is not the canon translation chosen for the ship class. Is it the 'canon' translation, though? So, your point? It's semantically awkward to place Generals above Marshals without a terminological 'backstory' for which there is no apparent warrant in the Imperial Starfleet... but we have to explain "Grand General", and the impressive status enjoyed by "Grand General Brashin", and "General Carvin". A blackshirt/stormtrooper/Atrisian Corps rank is a fix that IMHO makes sense without any annoying... a different branch of the military which doesn't have "Marshals". More similar musings on "High Admiral" to follow... And what about "Superior General Delvardus" (who IIRC wore blackshirt uniform)? Daala's musings in Darksaber on of the warlords' "pompous yet meaningless titles" don't necessarily mean that "Superior General Delvardus" doesn't hold (or affect) a real rank, any less than "High Admiral Terradoc", whose rank is entirely legitimate. That almost looks like two General ranks that don't go below the Marshals... we could slot "Superior General" in the blackshirt rank-scheme above "High Admiral" and below "Grand General"... The 5-mile Ex is EVERYWHERE. If I trashed any story or source that mentioned the 5 mile Ex, I'd be left with a miserably short list. As for the torpedo spheres, they were just powerful and dedicated planetary shield busters. It's a massive missile battery, and that can wreak absolute havoc with a fleet. One wonders just how much damage Pitta did to Grunger's fleet before Grunger kamikaze'd the Aggressor (200 ImpStars and an Ex, and the only way he can take out a torpedo sphere is to crash his flagship into it?!)... and we've seen what happened to the Lady Lucy with a single jury-rigged torpedo salvo at Thyferra... The point is, though, that elsewhere (even if it is Cracken's Threat Dossier - it's somewhere in this thread) the Empire is given far less torpedo spheres than the ISB would suggest... Now sure, I'm not trashing the sources... there are too many places where the Ex is said to be five miles long, and a lot of them are 'in-continuity'... IMHO, what that implies is that there's a widespread but - if we accept the appearance of the ILM model as canon - inaccurate belief in the GFFA that the Executor-class Super Star Destroyer is five miles long. In the same way, we have to explain an emphatically 'in-continuity' farrago of inaccuracies and half-truths as Cracken's Threat Dossier, rather than simply 'trash' it... The NR needs fewer ranks due to its smaller military. That gives them a choice of what to trash. With only a 3-tier deck, Fleet Admiral is more than enough. If the "High" ranks were all developed by the Empire, then they may put them anywhere they wish, would they? Well, we have "High Colonel", and "High General", which come immediately above straight "Colonel" and "General". These are new ranks created by the Empire. "High Admiral", another new Imperial rank, would logically follow "Admiral". Moreover, inserting "High Admiral" at a higher point in the rank hierarchy would effectively demote every Fleet Admiral in the Navy with regard to Marshals in the Army and Starfighter Command. It's not impossible. But I just don't like it. The only support you can give is "the ISB says it's like that". Moreover, in rl, "Fleet Admiral" is a development of "Admiral of the Fleet", originally the singular rank of a naval c-in-c; the NR usage follows this pattern exactly. That's to say, a "Fleet Admiral" is more than simply an "Admiral". The idea that a "High Admiral" (essentially an uber-"Admiral") should outrank a "Fleet Admiral" (not just an 'uber-"Admiral"', but a slightly devalued Navy commander-in-chief) annoys me... And taken together with the placing of all other "High" ranks immediately above their non-qualified "non-High" counterparts, together with their apparent common origins as Imperial padding... Which is why have this wee disagreement with the ISB... Well, you have yet to establish that. But I'm waiting. Happy now? In fact, IIRC, Fleet Admiral (5-stars) are more honorary than real. Congress handed out a few of them in WWII, and that's about it. So why does an Imperial Fleet Admiral command a Fleet? Isn't that just a brain-bug affecting the ISB? When your total mobile fleet is only worth about 5 sector groups in the old Imperial system, you can afford to use only 1 Fleet Admiral and dump the higher stuff altogether. What d'you mean by "total mobile fleet"? Are there figures for this? Because I'm not exactly convinced. Sure, there's no point mustering a single fleet of several hundred ImpStars, but that doesn't mean that there aren't sizeable forces deployed independant of the Moffs, or that it would make sense for mobile forces to be commanded by superior officers who could order the Moffs about... Grand Admiral Grunger - for instance - had 30 ImpStars under his command, but his rank allowed him to shanghai forces, and by the time he attacked Corellia (when a throwaway line in the SWAJ suggests was acting on Isard's orders) he'd got together 200 ImpStars... As for your idea, sorry, I'm afraid the Imps don't agree with you. The ISB doesn't, and it's inaccurate in places ("Commander" misplaced, too many torpedo spheres, five-mile fallacy). I'm not yet convinced. General used by itself can be VERY general ranging over every "XXX general" rank. But General ranks are capped out linguistically by Marshal ranks... The idea of Commodore being rated as a "flag rank" in the NR. Then because the NR does not place any great blocks to stop other non-naval branches from fleet command, its equivalents would also be flag rank. Thus, if they are bitching about Davip not being flag rank, he cannot be a Commodore-equivalent or above. No. Because Commodore isn't a "flag rank" per se. That's why a rl commodore flies a 'broad pennant' rather than a 'flag'. Actually, I'm sure that under the direction of General Wedge Antilles, the old Lusankya was in active duty pre-NJO. IIRC, it destroyed Pellaeon's Reaper in one of those battles that are only written in the Chronologies. Sorry - what I meant was that it hadn't seen combat against the Vong. There's thus little sense in saying that it was commanded by a navy "Commander" due to wartime attrition. All too many vessels in SW are piloted with "too few ranks." The Lusankya under the Imps had Captain Drysso. After that it is already Lieutenant Waroen. Three-level command Captain-Lieutenant-Ensign is sadly all too common among SW vessels. Isard had to crew the Lady Lucy with minimal forces. Captain Joak Drysso of the Virulence was the senior naval officer under her command. And quite apart from the fact that she didn't have enough officers to start with, by the time Waroen took command, the ship had been thoroughly trashed. He was the ranking officer on the wrecked bridge, but that doesn't mean there weren't a few Lieutenant-Commanders and Commanders still aboard somewhere... But the lack of Imperial 'Commanders' was, incidentally, why I originally favoured a German-style system of "Frigate Captains" and "Corvette Captains" until people threw a few "Commanders" and "Lieutenant-Commanders" at me earlier in the thread... If he did well, they could have promoted him to finally give him the rank he deserves. Davip? I think they upped him one grade. The alternative is that they promoted a navy officer to general rank in the army. I have no idea what's motivating you to argue that... We all know Americans wrote / translated most of Star Wars. But it doesn't matter. It is stated in the ISB that the Line Captain is the proper adjutant rank to the Squadron Commander. Thus that is the Imperial standard, regardless of who translated the ISB. That depends on the accuracy of the 'translation', and on the validity of the ISB itself... Why this false dilemma? I'm thinking Fel was fast-tracked to Major, then temp promoted to Captain. That will be more consistent than your kludge that Fel assumed command and outranked someone under something as edgy as "time-in rank." Most would prefer at least one real rank of difference. But why the temp promotion? And where is there any hint at a temp promotion? At base, anything we come up with is a kludge to resolve the apparent contradiction between Crispin and Stackpole (and if it wasn't for those blasted "Commanders", I'd have happily made him a 'Corvette Captain')... but IMHO, it's best to resolve it without hypothesising an extra 'temp promotion'. Unless... hang on... is Roek a Lieutenant in Blood and Honour, or am I just starting to hallucinate?! Your shortages do not necessarily apply to the Imperials at the time of creating the OOB. Please remember that. Manpower resources are finite. You're a Sector Force commander, and you want to create half a dozen new patrol flotillas using ships you've acquired locally - by your system, you have to give each command to a Line Captain. Which either means taking your Squadron commodores' adjudants away from them, promoting your Star Destroyer captains, or giving the best qualified officers for small-ship work (few of whom are going to be Line Captains, some of whom are probably going to be Starfighter or even Army officers) brevet promotions with bureaucratic responsibilities far beyond what they're actually capable of. Me? I'd give the flotillas to the best-qualified officers, with current rank - and so kriffing what if they're supposed to be "Line Captains" according to some bureaucratic fantasy? Unless you're saying is that the ISB is actually a proposal of some description, a hypothesis that didn't survive more than a few seconds of reality.... It is all a matter of extent. Nobody complains when a cruiser squadron commander outranks a battleship or carrier captain even if the squadron put together may not outweigh the battleship or carrier. But when it comes to corvettes, people suddenly scream. The difference is that a Line is a set of SEVERAL maneuvering elements, while a Star Destroyer is but one. The multiple elements need experience and training to coordinate to best effect, unlike a Captain, who only needs to think about himself and his one ship. And its TIE Wing and support ships. It's a differnt art, but no less an art. The difference between being the kennelmaster of a pack of hounds and the mahout of an elephant. The idea that you need more experience to command 'multiple elements' is false logic. My misread. The Star Destroyers are being split quite effectively. The Sector has 24. Which is split into 4 units of 6 (the fleet.) One more split for 3 in every Force Superiority, and a final split to ensure every battle squadron gets one. While compressing all Rear-Admirals, Vice-Admirals and Admirals into the narrow billet of commanding and staffing for Systems Forces? Not all. The Fleet and Sector Group level needs staffers too. The more important thing is the grooming process, where you are being groomed into Operational Commander. The transition takes time. In other places, when you go from what your military unit calls the "tactical" to the "operational," you take time off into an Academy - for the Soviets it is Voroshilov. The Imps don't seem to have this kind of advanced Academy stuff, so you take your time and learn on the job. The Imperial Starfleet has no 'strategic' level, then? And no effective field command above the squadron, either. I guess that explains why they got pasted... The operational eventually blends into the strategic - the blending is subtle enough that until the 70s or so, the West didn't even really think there WAS an operational level of war. At the Fleet level, the FTS and Force Support units are introduced. At the Sector Group, the Deepdock Fleet. With things like that, the blending is slow and gradual. For "field command" above squadron, it can happen. But for day-to-day stuff, squadron is highest. If a Systems Force commander wants to send more to a battle, the procedure is to call his Moff, and let him make the call. If a certain system is in such deep shit it requires more than a squadron to suppress, it is probably big enough to let the Moff in on the situation anyway. If the Moff orders your whole System Force in, then you can probably take command. Isn't that what bureaucrats are for, anyway? Or staff officers?! Rather than combat-experienced fleet commanders... At some point in every military, even the most "operator" of officers have to go and do some staffwork. Why did you think Wedge Antilles fought like a Rancor against the idea of promotion for years anyway? You don't really want bureaucrats managing all your staffwork. They often don't have a grasp of combat realities. A suitable blending of combat officers is needed to give the plans an aspect of realism. Knowledge of how to shuffle data. Kicking a person into staff is not solely to make a fine combat officer a beaureaucrat. It is also a form of apprenticeship, of learning how to plan operations at the new level. The good operators want to get out, so they work hard, learn the tricks and come back out as a commander. Some people find they like staffwork, so they stay. Purely theoretically, Imp officers go through several stages in their careers. They come out of the Academy as an Ensign or at most a junior lieutenant. If they aren't fast-tracked, they'd spend years commanding small sections. In combat, their obligations only extend to making sure their section does its part and follows orders. As they promote, they merely make sure bigger and bigger sections do their part. But they are still being components of the whole. Then comes the grooming process to make you a Captain. Suddenly, your responsibility grows. You are now making the decisions for your ship. You are responsible for your whole crew. In other words, you are beginning to have some real autonomy. This new autonomy requires some major grooming. But you are still taking your orders - you are to take a very specific amount of force and apply it to a particular objective. You don't have to worry about whether the amount of force being allocated is enough - it is not your concern. Your goal is taking what you do have and making the best tactical decisions out of them. As you rise to Line Captain, then Commodore, you get more forces under you. But you are still basically doing the same thing. In short, you are thinking TACTICALLY, only about what's happening in your own battle. Then comes the final test - the rise to Systems Force. You are no longer given specific orders and objectives. Instead, they give you a pool of ships called a Force. They then give really fudgy orders like "Maintain Order over Six Systems." You start having to decide - what problems are you going to even try to solve? In what order? How much force do you allocate to each problem? Do you keep a reserve? Do you use Augmentation to quietly reinforce your battle squadron to three Star Destroyers (all you have.) When do you call for help, in that matter. Finally, you are thinking operationally. These jumps do not occur overnight. Thus rank spacing to ensure proper grooming is very important. So if you want an armoured fist of six ImpStars, who do you put in command? And what do you call it? And how does it fit into the chain of command? If a Systems Force commander reads the report from his Squadron leaders that tell him a fist of six ImpStars was needed, he'd phone his Moff. His Moff assesses the situation, and decides whether the situation is really worth sending one fourth of his heavy combat power on. If it is, he drafts a mission detail. Six Star Destroyers plus their escorts almost means a Fleet. He's probably going to wind up calling one of his Fleet Admirals (probably the originating Systems Admiral's superior) to go and shut that offending planet down for good. With that done, the Moff and his staff tries to redeploy their remaining assets to cover the gap caused by the over-concentration of an entire fleet against a single planet. If I made the ISB, the Executor would be 11 miles long. I'd also shut you guys up by telling you EXACTLY what the Vice and Rear Admirals are doing. :-) Pelranius: Vong ranks? Warmaster Supreme Commander Commander Subaltern Warrior Within the "Commander" rank at least, there are gradations marked by distinctive physical enhancement ('elevation'), and the bracket seems to cover everyone from the captains of the smallest capital ship through to the leaders of major fleet units like Shedao Shai. That's to say, it covers everything from Captain - or even Lieutenant-Commander - to somwhere above High Admiral... I don't think we've ever seen a subaltern in charge of a ship, though the Yammka's Mount, either as flagship or because it's so big, warrants a Supreme Commander, a rank otherwise only accorded to a handful of officers in major campaign theatres like Hutt Space... Needless to say, there is only one Warmaster. There seem to be some subtleties that haven't been elaborated on. Commander Shedao Shai wore crimson vonduun crab armour with mask and bracer, and carried a tsaisi as a sidearm, all of which was supposed to indicate his high rank. But he doesn't seem to have worn the 'cloak of command' which is the basic insignia of commanders in Jim Luceno's novels - and although that's not to say he didn't have the implanted shoulderspurs that are the associated 'elevation', it certainly suggests a different attitude to rank and honour. Luceno's YV elites like Nas Choka and Loiric Kaan, in fact, don't seem to wear armour at all... while Commander Tla and Battle Tactician Raff from Hero's Trial lack Domain names, and we've never seen another Vong with Raff's distinctive title or shaping - it's not even clear that he's warrior-caste, but if not, what is he? Do different branches of Vong society have different traditions? Anyway... within that basic frame, it kinda flexes... - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP "To write one Solo twin as an angstbunny, Master Skywalker, might be considered unfortunate. To write BOTH that way looks like carelessness." BEIGE AND IRON!! Awesomeness is victorious on all fronts!
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 1/16/04 11:48am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/16/04 12:16pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
	Dammit. I was editing a massive rant into that post, and it kinda ran on past the limit. There's now a long tranche in the middle which is just Borealis' post in the raw. Am I the only person who can see what looks like a major flaw in the way the Sector Fleet is organized according to the OOB in the ISB? The Star Destroyers are being split quite effectively. The Sector has 24. Which is split into 4 units of 6 (the fleet.) One more split for 3 in every Force Superiority, and a final split to ensure every battle squadron gets one. So, for any flag officer in the Imperial Starfleet to form an armoured fist of ImpStars, he needs to take away the flagships of the subordinate units of his command... and 50% of Admirals will spend their lives tripping over the Fleet Admirals with whom they share their flagships. Pity the poor Line Captains serving as adjudants to Commodores... I guess it's better than commanding a Skipray Blastboat squadron on the front line... Not all. The Fleet and Sector Group level needs staffers too. The more important thing is the grooming process, where you are being groomed into Operational Commander. The transition takes time. In other places, when you go from what your military unit calls the "tactical" to the "operational," you take time off into an Academy - for the Soviets it is Voroshilov. The Imps don't seem to have this kind of advanced Academy stuff, so you take your time and learn on the job. Well, since 50% of Systems Force staffs having to negotiate sharing the limited numbers of executive toilets aboard their flagships with the Fleet Admirals' adjudants they share the ship with, I can see why they call it 'learning on the job'... The operational eventually blends into the strategic - the blending is subtle enough that until the 70s or so, the West didn't even really think there WAS an operational level of war. At the Fleet level, the FTS and Force Support units are introduced. At the Sector Group, the Deepdock Fleet. With things like that, the blending is slow and gradual. Ah, you mean logistics! For "field command" above squadron, it can happen. But for day-to-day stuff, squadron is highest. If a Systems Force commander wants to send more to a battle, the procedure is to call his Moff, and let him make the call. If a certain system is in such deep shit it requires more than a squadron to suppress, it is probably big enough to let the Moff in on the situation anyway. If the Moff orders your whole System Force in, then you can probably take command. And for the duration of the emergency, withdraw all the flagships from your subordinate squadrons? At some point in every military, even the most "operator" of officers have to go and do some staffwork. Why did you think Wedge Antilles fought like a Rancor against the idea of promotion for years anyway? Because his experience of winning a war involved a strategy of devastating strikes by front-line units of elite troops? You don't really want bureaucrats managing all your staffwork. They often don't have a grasp of combat realities. A suitable blending of combat officers is needed to give the plans an aspect of realism. So the purpose of putting combat officers in there is to delude the people that do the actual fighting that it's necessary or effective? Sorry. I take it that your have some experience of this sort of thing. Myself, I've never commanded anything larger than an armchair. Kicking a person into staff is not solely to make a fine combat officer a beaureaucrat. It is also a form of apprenticeship, of learning how to plan operations at the new level. The good operators want to get out, so they work hard, learn the tricks and come back out as a commander. Some people find they like staffwork, so they stay. Fair enough. But the idea that a Commodore has no experience of planning operations suggests that you're not giving your ship-captains enough leeway... or that there's a certain snobbishness by the military bureaucrats that these soldiers don't know how to do anything except point a gun in the right direction... I mean, in logistical terms, the difference between running a cruiser and running a fleet looks to me like a matter of scale... Purely theoretically, Imp officers go through several stages in their careers. They come out of the Academy as an Ensign or at most a junior lieutenant. If they aren't fast-tracked, they'd spend years commanding small sections. In combat, their obligations only extend to making sure their section does its part and follows orders. As they promote, they merely make sure bigger and bigger sections do their part. But they are still being components of the whole. Then comes the grooming process to make you a Captain. Suddenly, your responsibility grows. You are now making the decisions for your ship. You are responsible for your whole crew. In other words, you are beginning to have some real autonomy. This new autonomy requires some major grooming. But you are still taking your orders - you are to take a very specific amount of force and apply it to a particular objective. You don't have to worry about whether the amount of force being allocated is enough - it is not your concern. Your goal is taking what you do have and making the best tactical decisions out of them. As you rise to Line Captain, then Commodore, you get more forces under you. But you are still basically doing the same thing. In short, you are thinking TACTICALLY, only about what's happening in your own battle. Then comes the final test - the rise to Systems Force. You are no longer given specific orders and objectives. Instead, they give you a pool of ships called a Force. They then give really fudgy orders like "Maintain Order over Six Systems." You start having to decide - what problems are you going to even try to solve? In what order? How much force do you allocate to each problem? Do you keep a reserve? Do you use Augmentation to quietly reinforce your battle squadron to three Star Destroyers (all you have.) When do you call for help, in that matter. Finally, you are thinking operationally. These jumps do not occur overnight. Thus rank spacing to ensure proper grooming is very important. I'm sorry. I guess I think the distinction is horrendously artificial... I guess my perceptions are dominated by the way that the British Army and RN operated in the C18th and C19th... sure, I can see the sense in having people obeying orders in a large army on campaign, but I'd hope that a commodore would have enough sense to act on his own initiative in the first place... And I suspect that the overworked, underresourced Line Captains commanding the empire's front-line cruiser and escort units have to deal with "what problems are you going to even try to solve?" every day. Since they can't call in an ImpStar, questions like, "In what order? How much force do you allocate to each problem? Do you keep a reserve?" don't even come into it, but you get the idea... By the looks of things, the OOB has actually divorced front-line forces - the people doing most of the fighting against the Rebels - from the 'operational' bear-pit of the commodores and flag officers. And then they have the arrogance to assume that the people on the hard end don't know anything about operations, even if they've spent several years keeping a force of cruisers and frigates ready for combat through a nasty little campaign that the Moff hasn't even heard of... If a Systems Force commander reads the report from his Squadron leaders that tell him a fist of six ImpStars was needed, he'd phone his Moff. His Moff assesses the situation, and decides whether the situation is really worth sending one fourth of his heavy combat power on. If it is, he drafts a mission detail. Six Star Destroyers plus their escorts almost means a Fleet. He's probably going to wind up calling one of his Fleet Admirals (probably the originating Systems Admiral's superior) to go and shut that offending planet down for good. With that done, the Moff and his staff tries to redeploy their remaining assets to cover the gap caused by the over-concentration of an entire fleet against a single planet. Quite a gap, isn't it? Wouldn't it make more sense to weight your forces according to the realities of the sector in the first place, rather than sticking a Commodore aboard each ImpStar and giving them a cookie-cutter command? If I made the ISB, the Executor would be 11 miles long. 11.8, no? I'd also shut you guys up by telling you EXACTLY what the Vice and Rear Admirals are doing. :-) Which is...? - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP "To write one Solo twin as an angstbunny, Master Skywalker, might be considered unfortunate. To write BOTH that way looks like carelessness." BEIGE AND IRON!! Awesomeness is victorious on all fronts!
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seeker_two Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 1/16/04 1:59pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Now, that doesn't mean that they could not take it. I have no doubt that had Palpatine really wanted to destroy Mon Cal that he could of. I just think that he decided that it was not worth the cost. As for Palpatine not attacking Mon Calamari, he was waiting till his DeathStar was operational. I think you both are right. In order to take Mon Calamari, Palpatine would have had to commit a large fleet to the mission. That fleet would be expected to take massive losses just to get close enough for orbital bombardment, and there's no telling what weaponry the Mon Cals had surface-side to respond to the attack. With the Death Star, all Palps would have to do is order it into the system, destroy the planet w/ one shot, and then take a few pot shots at the fleeing survivors. Even if some of the ships got away, they would have lost their biggest ally & manufacturing/resupply port. Easy victory for a planet-busting weapon like the Death Star or Sun Crusher. -----signature----- If Han can shoot first, why can't I?... No, Sebastian Shaw was NOT standing in for Hayden.... If it's alright with you, I'm going to pretend the whole Vong thing never happened... [link=http://starwars.wikia.com]Wookiepedia[/link]
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