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Author	Topic: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)
AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/16/04 2:58pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Seeker_Two: Good point. The Death Star or another superweapon could of done it with a single shot. Anyway, Calamari's defenses were pretty formidible, at least by Rebel standards. Probably around 40 various capital ships in the Rebel defense fleet, their accompanying starfighter squadrons, and whatever starfighters that were stationed on the planet. Note that the RASB says that the planets space defenses are built around heavy cruisers, so obviously there were several Mon Cal cruisers in that fleet. Add these space defenses to a planetary shield and multiple anti- orbital weapons, and you have a target that would cost a fair amount of resources to take. The more I think about it, anti-orbital weapons, like the KDY v-150 Planet Defender ion cannon or large stationary turbolaser cannons, may of been deployed in substaintial numbers on Mon Cal. The only other defense that could of been another factor was a large deployment of space mines, as proposed by Dr. Saxton. If the Alliance deployed enough of them around the major hyperspace entry points into the Calamari system, it may of been yet another factor in preventing the Empire from finishing of Calamari. I stress again, the Empire could of taken the planet, without any doubt. My point is that the cost of such an attack may of convinced Imperial Navy commanders, as well as the Emperor, to wait to take Calamari until a quicker, less costly (in terms of manpower, not money) method was available. Like the Death Star. See, I went full circle with that idea. Any thoughts? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/16/04 6:56pm Subject: Thrawn... - Date Edited: 1/16/04 8:15pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Borleias
	Are you sure...? Suspension of Disbelief-wise We'd never be sure because we've never seen the original Basic. However, I've seen translations before, and I know they do use this move, lest the original pun become meaningless to the audience. Is it the 'canon' translation, though? It is immortalized into the ICS. IMHO, the evidence shows the ICS has been elevated above the average EU into the canon bracket. This is also convenient for me in some of my other activities outside this board (undeniable 200GT turbolasers are good weapons against Trekkies.) Unfortunately, that means I have to take the lumps with the good, and at least acknowledge that the "Imperial-class" is now the canon translation chosen. God, how much do I want to puke in the toilet at that name, especially when you know full well how it came about? It's semantically awkward to place Generals above Marshals without a terminological 'backstory' for which there is no apparent warrant in the Imperial Starfleet... but we have to explain "Grand General", and the impressive status enjoyed by "Grand General Brashin", and "General Carvin". Without even knowing whether there is a backstory, superficial semantic awkwardness is no reason to deny a source. And what about "Superior General Delvardus" (who IIRC wore blackshirt uniform)? Daala's musings in Darksaber on of the warlords' "pompous yet meaningless titles" don't necessarily mean that "Superior General Delvardus" doesn't hold (or affect) a real rank, any less than "High Admiral Terradoc", whose rank is entirely legitimate. That almost looks like two General ranks that don't go below the Marshals... we could slot "Superior General" in the blackshirt rank-scheme above "High Admiral" and below "Grand General"... You could also stuff it into the normal Army scheme, if you don't keep insisting there is no backstory and that General above Marshal MUST sound awkward. It's a massive missile battery, and that can wreak absolute havoc with a fleet. One wonders just how much damage Pitta did to Grunger's fleet before Grunger kamikaze'd the Aggressor (200 ImpStars and an Ex, and the only way he can take out a torpedo sphere is to crash his flagship into it?!)... and we've seen what happened to the Lady Lucy with a single jury-rigged torpedo salvo at Thyferra... Tell me more about that battle. Without knowing how much Pitta had it is very hard to tell. Definitely if the RPG is any indication, it is not THAT tough. And don't even mention Bacta War again. It was probably a mix of ultra-high yield torps and superb coordination. The point is, though, that elsewhere (even if it is Cracken's Threat Dossier - it's somewhere in this thread) the Empire is given far less torpedo spheres than the ISB would suggest... Probably they were all killed in the Civil Wars. How many does good old Cracken thinks the Empire has? If you got a quote, put it up. Context is important. Moreover, inserting "High Admiral" at a higher point in the rank hierarchy would effectively demote every Fleet Admiral in the Navy with regard to Marshals in the Army and Starfighter Command. It is just nomenclature. If the Fleet Admirals are GENUINELY unhappy and the Emperor is actually interested in placating them, he can promote the best of them to High Admiral. Also, the Emperor is trying to elevate the Army to co-equal status as the Navy. What better way to do this than that? There may not even be that many OR Fleet Admirals to voice their opposition. Remember that the OR idea of a sector fleet is only of Imp squadron strength. It's not impossible. But I just don't like it. The only support you can give is "the ISB says it's like that". Attacking an official source is kind of like going against a defense lawyer. All he has to do is put up "reasonable doubt" to your position. You, on the other hand, have to put up contradictions (preferably from canon) and scientific impossibilities. Without either of the two in place, attacking it because you don't like the semantics is HORRENDOUSLY DIFFICULT. Moreover, in rl, "Fleet Admiral" is a development of "Admiral of the Fleet", originally the singular rank of a naval c-in-c; the NR usage follows this pattern exactly. That's to say, a "Fleet Admiral" is more than simply an "Admiral". The idea that a "High Admiral" (essentially an uber-"Admiral") should outrank a "Fleet Admiral" (not just an 'uber-"Admiral"', but a slightly devalued Navy commander-in-chief) annoys me... That has to do with the fact the NR only got about FIVE mobile fleets that put together is worth about 5 Sector Groups. When your organization's small, you need fewer ranks. [blockquote]And taken together with the placing of all other "High" ranks immediately above their non-qualified "non-High" counterparts, together with their apparent common origins as Imperial padding...[/blockquote] I also notice, however, that the Emperor puts his High. Think. The High Colonel is above ALL Colonels. The High General is above all Generals. And the High Admiral is above all Admirals. Then they tack the Grand ranks right below the Emperor's chair. [blockquote]So why does an Imperial Fleet Admiral command a Fleet? Isn't that just a brain-bug affecting the ISB?[/blockquote] It has to do with the rapid expansion of the force. [blockquote]What d'you mean by "total mobile fleet"? Are there figures for this? Because I'm not exactly convinced. Sure, there's no point mustering a single fleet of several hundred ImpStars, but that doesn't mean that there aren't sizeable forces deployed independant of the Moffs, or that it would make sense for mobile forces to be commanded by superior officers who could order the Moffs about...[/blockquote] Talking about Grunger and Moffs are a Red Herring. I'm referring to the NR. They use a triple 5-5-5 structure AFAIK. Fleet-Battlegroup-Task Force. A Star Destroyer heads up every Task Force, and between the combat and noncombat vessels, each Task Force is supposed to be up to about 21. A Fleet therefore has 25 Star Destroyers and about 500 other ships. That's actually a bit LESS than a Sector Group. As for your senior officers, there are several 7-wide ranks that could do that work. The Emperor probably doesn't want that many of those strutting around. [blockquote]But General ranks are capped out linguistically by Marshal ranks...[/blockquote] Not if Marshal only fills up one spot in your system. [blockquote]Isard had to crew the Lady Lucy with minimal forces. Captain Joak Drysso of the Virulence was the senior naval officer under her command. And quite apart from the fact that she didn't have enough officers to start with, by the time Waroen took command, the ship had been thoroughly trashed. He was the ranking officer on the wrecked bridge, but that doesn't mean there weren't a few Lieutenant-Commanders and Commanders still aboard somewhere...[/blockquote] He didn't just take command. Waroen was apparently Drysso's aide and serving in the capacity of XO. And all his other senior officers that we can see, like his Chief Gunner Gorev and his Chief Navigator Rosion (on a Terran warship, those two positions would at least be a Lieutenant Commander) are Lieutenants. [blockquote]Davip? I think they upped him one grade. The alternative is that they promoted a navy officer to general rank in the army. I have no idea what's motivating you to argue that...[/blockquote] Our argument isn't as great as you think. "Commander" clearly exists as some kind of rank in all three branches. The difference is I choose to cross tie it based on Commander Antilles, the link with the Naval Commander and so on. [blockquote]That depends on the accuracy of the 'translation', and on the validity of the ISB itself...[/blockquote] Even if you could legitimately come up with an argument against the positioning of Fleet and High Admiral, what does this have to do with the positioning of a Commodore's adjutant (that also has to serve as a Chief of Staff.) [blockquote]But why the temp promotion? And where is there any hint at a temp promotion? At base, anything we come up with is a kludge to resolve the apparent contradiction between Crispin and Stackpole (and if it wasn't for those blasted "Commanders", I'd have happily made him a 'Corvette Captain')... but IMHO, it's best to resolve it without hypothesising an extra 'temp promotion'.[/blockquote] Instead, you choose to arbitrarily demote his fellow officers. Command superiority by time-in-rank only is VERY weak, and the chances of Toniv, Roek and Jelon ALL being junior to Fel in time-in-rank is enormously unlikely. As for your last point. That's rationalization. It's what we do. [blockquote]Manpower resources are finite. You're a Sector Force commander, and you want to create half a dozen new patrol flotillas using ships you've acquired locally - by your system, you have to give each command to a Line Captain. Which either means taking your Squadron commodores' adjudants away from them, promoting your Star Destroyer captains, or giving the best qualified officers for small-ship work (few of whom are going to be Line Captains, some of whom are probably going to be Starfighter or even Army officers) brevet promotions with bureaucratic responsibilities far beyond what they're actually capable of. Me? I'd give the flotillas to the best-qualified officers, with current rank - and so kriffing what if they're supposed to be "Line Captains" according to some bureaucratic fantasy?[/blockquote] Let's see. My supposed solution when I want a new skirmish line: 1) Get some adjutants to it. Well, I'm sure that the operators in this group would be more than happy. Anything must be better than staffwork all day long. 2) Get some Star Destroyer captains to it. Can't. Naval tradition says that captains can cling to their commands. I don't think any SD captains want to give up their SD anytime soon. 3) Search the corvette-driver ranks for the best corvette drivers. Since he's going to be doing Line Captain's work and would want a solid superiority over his peers, I'd brevet promote that man to Line Captain. If he does well, I'd let him climb up the ladder. Your solution: 1) Search the corvette-driver ranks for the best corvette drivers. Declare him to be effectively a line captain without the promotion. Since he's probably a captain-lieutenant (maybe you'd be nice and make him a Lieutenant Commander,) he's going to have major trouble in the strategy conferences, with all those SD captains (many of which are FULL Captains) and the heavier attack line commanders (Dreadnaughts, which would probably qualify for a Line Captain even if the corvettes don't.) [blockquote]And its TIE Wing and support ships. It's a differnt art, but no less an art. The difference between being the kennelmaster of a pack of hounds and the mahout of an elephant. The idea that you need more experience to command 'multiple elements' is false logic.[/blockquote] An argument that can be used against a RL carrier captain, but guess what, to today, I think all of them are still Captains. [blockquote]So, for any flag officer in the Imperial Starfleet to form an armoured fist of ImpStars, he needs to take away the flagships of the subordinate units of his command... and 50% of Admirals will spend their lives tripping over the Fleet Admirals with whom they share their flagships.[/blockquote] The Moff generally is in a safe office. Of 24 Star Destroyers, 6 would have three sets of staff (Fleet-Force-Squadron), 12 would have have two sets (Force-Squadron,) and all would have one set. Its even worse than you think :-) On the other hand, the theory is probably that if the SDs are needed, you might as well bring most of remaining gear along. [blockquote]And for the duration of the emergency, withdraw all the flagships from your subordinate squadrons?[/blockquote] More like, you are COMMITTING your subordinate squadrons. [blockquote]Because his experience of winning a war involved a strategy of devastating strikes by front-line units of elite troops?[/blockquote] I'd say it is more because he wants to continue flying, and he's worried about the staffwork. When he finally promotes, he tries to get himself a flying job. [blockquote]So the purpose of putting combat officers in there is to delude the people that do the actual fighting that it's necessary or effective?[/blockquote] The amount of time an officer should do staffwork varies on the military. The RN supposedly uses very little staffwork on the route to ship command (if you are locked into the command route.) But the USN tends to have various shore-duties before you move up to the command. [blockquote]Fair enough. But the idea that a Commodore has no experience of planning operations suggests that you're not giving your ship-captains enough leeway... or that there's a certain snobbishness by the military bureaucrats that these soldiers don't know how to do anything except point a gun in the right direction... I mean, in logistical terms, the difference between running a cruiser and running a fleet looks to me like a matter of scale...[/blockquote] In truly dire emergencies, a first lieutenant can lead a battalion (yes, this has already happened to the US once during the Vietnam era.) But it is not supposed to happen. The Imperial military IS supposed to be tightly controlled. That's supposed to be one of the many reasons the Rebs can survive at all. If every Imp commander is smart, loyal and capable of taking the initiative, how much chance would the Rebellion have? :-) A single cruiser and a fleet are different. I'd just propose one difference - formation. As a subordinate warship in a line, you are either "maneuvering independently" or trying to keep formation. The Line Captain has to decide what formation to use, and think about things down to whether his men are up to the formation (sometimes, they aren't especially if the line's new and hadn't worked together much.) [blockquote]And I suspect that the overworked, underresourced Line Captains commanding the empire's front-line cruiser and escort units have to deal with "what problems are you going to even try to solve?" every day. Since they can't call in an ImpStar, questions like, "In what order? How much force do you allocate to each problem? Do you keep a reserve?" don't even come into it, but you get the idea...[/blockquote] Probably not. In the top-down Imperial military, they are probably running drills, waiting for the call from the commodore to prepare to sortie. The Commodore, in turn is waiting for the Systems Admiral for his orders. If they are escorting, their mission is assigned, and all they'd probably be thinking is how to fight off the next Rebel raid during that voyage. They won't be thinking about "Is this convoy valuable enough to escort?" That's Force's job. When they are done with one convoy, probably they are sitting around waiting for orders. [blockquote]And then they have the arrogance to assume that the people on the hard end don't know anything about operations, even if they've spent several years keeping a force of cruisers and frigates ready for combat through a nasty little campaign that the Moff hasn't even heard of...[/blockquote] You actually assume this would happen in the Imp military. If a force was really going missing for that long, the Moff will know about this kind of thing. Remember, the Imperial military is not supposed to be a world-beater in initiative. I think 17.6-18 is about acceptable range for an Executor. And if Vice and Rear Admiral are up to me, I'd say a mixture of staff positions, augmented squadron commands and special detail (say 2 squadrons) commands. If Chapter 8 of the ISB is up to me, I'd tell you the typical jobs of every rank from Ensign to Captain as well.
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/17/04 8:46am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	AdmiralNick22, I think we should pay particular heed to the "anti-ship artillery" you mentioned. If Mon Cal has similar defensive systems to those employed on Hoth, but in greater number and/or quality, then we could expect it to be arduous for the Empire to mount a credible assault. Troop numbers and ship numbers wouldn't be a problem. But if their SDs are getting immobilised every few minutes, they could expect heavy casualties. It could well be that they followed the procedure that the British Grand Fleet followed in WWI. A "distant blockade". Aware of the danger of losing ships to mines, and very wary of the problems of submarines - which could not then be detected, not to mention the fact that they'd have needed more ships than they had (ships at the blockade, ships returning for fuel, and ships returning to the blockade - and this was only destroyers they were worried about - not even the battleships!) the RN's command stationed the Grand Fleet at Scapa Flow, and waited for the enemy to come out. Meanwhile, British control of the seas was tightened, and German trade was extinguished. This action was partly responsible for the collapse of Germany in 1918, because rationing had got so bad. So it seems reasonable that the Empire might have attempted something similar. It is all a matter of extent. Nobody complains when a cruiser squadron commander outranks a battleship or carrier captain even if the squadron put together may not outweigh the battleship or carrier. But when it comes to corvettes, people suddenly scream. Back to WWI. There was a major British destroyer force at Harwich (I think), commanded by a Commodore (I know). Who would therefore have outranked a Captain commanding a battleship. However, the battleships were always attached to Rear Admirals and the like, so the Commodore wouldn't have been able to override orders, or send the battleship off on a jaunt. It's just the same in Star Wars. We might worry that the Sector has a Rear Admiral in charge of all Corvette level vessels. But if the commander of all cruiser size vessels is a Vice-Admiral, what difference does it make? If the V-Adm is incapacitated or otherwise removed from the chain of command, then the R Adm would assume greater importance. Even if his original Flagship is only a 2 gun, hyperdrive missing, flying chair! ThrawnMcEwok, Grand General in the Stormtrooper Corps sounds fine to me. One thing, though. We never get told that Veers is a Stormy. He appears to be Regular Army, yet he commands Stormies. Stormies might only have the right to refuse orders if they feel those orders would be of detriment to the Emperor. It's a little fuzzy. So Grand General as a Stormy or a Reg Army rank are both perfectly plausible still, I fear. I'm also a little fuzzy on Superior General Delvardus and H Adm Teradoc. May I take it that we can place D above a General (although not necessarily a High Gen)? We can also definitely place T above an Adm (without argument). Daala was a Fleet Admiral, wasn't she? She first turns up at Supreme Warlord Harrsk's base, where his fleet is attacked by V-Adm Pellaeon, acting under orders from H Adm T. Quoth Supreme Warlord Harrsk to Daala: '"I outrank you, and you have my orders," he screamed...she intentionally denied him the title of Supreme Warlord.' Let's throw in some more confusion with 'Supreme Warlord'. Thrawn gets the title of 'Warlord', so we can guess that H has taken this to evoke memories of Thrawn, and to place himself in a technically superior rank. Also mentioned in Darksaber is the 'rank' of 'High Moff' (p.130). Sup Gen Delvardus also has shoulder boards and wears medals. These features imply a non-standard uniform, since they don't appear in the films, nor is GA Thrawn mentioned as displaying either. One can take the fact that Pellaeon has only been promoted (presumably by Teradoc) to V-A to indicate that HA is only just above A. It's sadly inconclusive, like all our evidence. Because one could also argue that not one of these Imperial warlords would restrain himself from seizing a title if he thought he could get away with it. The depiction of these fellows is utterly unsympathetic. They're all out for personal gain. So why would Teradoc not take the rank of Fleet Admiral (Daala's rank), if it was superior to his own? Hardly conclusive, I know, but there's something there to think on. As to General ranks being linguistically capped by Marshal ranks, we've already seen that this convention can be overturned. As an aside, Saxton himself seems to feel that High Admiral and Fleet Admiral may have been transposed by the ISB's authors. I like the idea of yours about ranks like Korvetten-Kapitaen: But the lack of Imperial 'Commanders' was, incidentally, why I originally favoured a German-style system of "Frigate Captains" and "Corvette Captains" until people threw a few "Commanders" and "Lieutenant-Commanders" at me earlier in the thread... Me? I'd give the flotillas to the best-qualified officers, with current rank - and so kriffing what if they're supposed to be "Line Captains" according to some bureaucratic fantasy? Sounds good. I don't see why one shouldn't have lower ranking officers commanding such forces. If we've got Lt-Commanders as O/Cs of Corvettes (or Korvetten Kapitaenen!) then one could well find Commanders or Captains in charge of 'Combat forces' or 'Patrol Squadrons' of these units. Perhaps ad hoc gatherings copuld be considered, too. Nonetheless, while the ISB is probably the framework and the model to which all should aspire, it doesn't have to be true in every case. It stipulates 24 ISDs per Sector. Flashpoint: Brak Sector notes 30 ISDs in the Sector Fleet just after Yavin. (A WEG sourcebook and I bloody well lost it, too! I have only a few photocopies of some sections left!) Even if none of the Sectors we have in our mentioned sources have the requisite numbers, there are a thousand sectors, and we might only be looking at the aberrant ones. The idea that you need more experience to command 'multiple elements' is false logic. It is doubtless an erroneous idea, but one that is pursued even today because it's safer that way. Otherwise one gets commanders who look great on paper, but have no martial skill. Take McClellan, for example, a general who thought he was in imminent danger of being beaten at every turn, whose intelligence services warned him that the Confederacy had a vast army far beyond the South's capabilities. -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/17/04 8:47am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	So, for any flag officer in the Imperial Starfleet to form an armoured fist of ImpStars, he needs to take away the flagships of the subordinate units of his command... and 50% of Admirals will spend their lives tripping over the Fleet Admirals with whom they share their flagships. Pity the poor Line Captains serving as adjudants to Commodores... I guess it's better than commanding a Skipray Blastboat squadron on the front line... Part of the British Fleet at Jutland (taken from Appendix 1 of the Battle of Jutland, Geoffrey Bennett): 2nd Battle Sqn: King George V (Flagship of V-Adm), 3 others, Orion (Flagship of RA), 3 others. 4th B Sqn: Iron Duke (Fleet Flagship of Jellicoe), 1 other, Superb (Flag of RA), 1 other, Benbow (Flag of VA), 3 others Of these two squadrons there were 5 battleships out of 16 were flagships. In the Battlefleet as a whole there were 12 flagships (battleships) for Rear and Vice Admirals, as well as Jellicoe. that's 12 out of 37 warships - all commanded by captains - with flag officers aboard. Jellicoe's staff on Iron Duke included at least one more VA (his brother in law). 8 armoured cruisers in 2 sqns of 4 each had a flag for RAs. The Light Cruisers attached to the fleet had 1 RA, and 3 Commodores (although the Commodores also commanded their own vessels. 1 Commodore and a number of Captains and 1 Commander led the destroyer flotillas. So we have a fleet comparable to a part of a Sector Fleet which has 16 admirals of various levels (including Jellicoe), and 4 commodores. The German fleet (Appendix 2) had similar levels of command. 6 Rear Admirals, 3 Vice Admirals (including Scheer and Hipper) and 3 Commodores, as well as assorted captains and commanders i/c the smaller units. That there was a VA on Jellicoe's staff is also indicative that these things are common in large fleets. He has no specific command of a ship (he was the fleet Chief of Staff), and would only have taken over with the loss of every other officer of his rank. How much more important would staff officers be for a fleet of over two thousand vessels spread over several light years! This VA (Sir Charles Madden) later became an Admiral of the Fleet, and in 1926 First Sea Lord. According to Jane's Fighting Ships of WWI, the RN's rank structure ran thus: Sub-Lt, Lt, Lt-Cdr, Cdr, Capt, Cmdr, RA, VA, Adm, Adm of the Fleet. the High Seas Fleet ran thus: Leutnant z. See, Oberleutnant z. See, Kapitaen-Leutnant, Fregatten-Kapitaen and Korvetten-Kapitaen, Kapitaen zu See, Kommodore, Kontre-Admiral, Vize-Admiral, Admiral, Gross-Admiral. Every rank from Kommodore up is designated Flagoffiziere, the three variants of Captain are Stabsoffiziere (Staff Officers) and the others are Subalternoffiziere. These were both substantial navies, but the smaller USN of this era ran thus: Ensign, Lt, Lt-Cdr, Cdr, Capt, RA, Admiral of the Navy. There is no provision for Commodores or Vice Admirals in that system. The French Navy is also bereft of Commodores in this period, as is the Italian. The Italian Navy is similar to the German in its officer titles. Capitano di Corvetta, Capitano di Fregata, Capitano di Vascello. Jane's translates the latter two as Captain (Junior) and Captain (Senior) respectively. There is a note to the effect that the new rank of Sotto-Ammiraglio (lit. Sub-Admiral) has been introduced as equivalent to the RN or HSF's Commodores. -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/17/04 9:17am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	ccccFair enough. But the idea that a Commodore has no experience of planning operations suggests that you're not giving your ship-captains enough leeway... or that there's a certain snobbishness by the military bureaucrats that these soldiers don't know how to do anything except point a gun in the right direction... I mean, in logistical terms, the difference between running a cruiser and running a fleet looks to me like a matter of scale... Well, matters of scale can be a big problem. Fightin' Joe Hooker in the ACW was a good corps comander, but ran into trouble at army command level. Burnside was placed i/c of a corps, then ended up with an army to command, that he felt he couldn't run effectively. Fredericksburg. Some people have problems with higher levels of command - partly because of the problems of scale. I'm sorry. I guess I think the distinction is horrendously artificial... I guess my perceptions are dominated by the way that the British Army and RN operated in the C18th and C19th... sure, I can see the sense in having people obeying orders in a large army on campaign, but I'd hope that a commodore would have enough sense to act on his own initiative in the first place... Well, we've got chaps like Nelson (I see no signal) whose initiative was a great boon. But we also get men like Thesiger, Lord Chelmsford, whose inability to delegate command, or even create an effective chain of command in the campaign in Zululand was largely responsible for the disaster at Isandhlwana in 1879. Where we lost 1,200 men equipped with the latest rifle technology to brave men with spears. The difference between the two forces is highlighted with the contrast between this battle, and the subsequent defence of Rorke's Drift. Officers in the Boer War could also be fools, so it's always handy to create a General Staff for forward planning. The RN only came up with a forward planning at the end of the 19th/start of the 20th C. Largely influenced by Fisher, these things were still in the process of forming. Indeed, as you say, there was no longer the spirit of Nelson, and the RN found itself largely hampered by its officers' desire not to risk themselves without orders from above. As you say, this is a danger in any hierarchy. And I suspect that the overworked, underresourced Line Captains commanding the empire's front-line cruiser and escort units have to deal with "what problems are you going to even try to solve?" every day. Since they can't call in an ImpStar, questions like, "In what order? How much force do you allocate to each problem? Do you keep a reserve?" don't even come into it, but you get the idea... Why can't they call in an ISD? They just talk to the next in the chain of command, explain the solution, and, if their superior agrees, they get an ISD or more. I don't understand. Sure you get things like General MacArthur in WWII, with the fighting on the mountain ranges in New Guinea. He refused to believe that the raw Australian recruits facing down elite Japanese troops were outnumbered and undersupplied, refusing their requests for reinforcements. Borleias, if I recall correctly, 6 Torpedo Spheres are mentioned. 1.9km diameter ovals, so they are. But 6 isn't many for 1,000 sectors. So I'd have no probs accepting a much higher figure. Like Han's "Don't get jittery, Luke, there are a lot of command ships." comment. Saxton takes that as evidence that Ex is not an one-off, but Dr S also says that Han's referrng to Star Destroyers is slang. I question Dr S's methodology on occasion Talking about Grunger and Moffs are a Red Herring. I'm referring to the NR. They use a triple 5-5-5 structure AFAIK. Fleet-Battlegroup-Task Force. A Star Destroyer heads up every Task Force, and between the combat and noncombat vessels, each Task Force is supposed to be up to about 21. A Fleet therefore has 25 Star Destroyers and about 500 other ships. That's actually a bit LESS than a Sector Group. Wow, that's a lot less than the generally stated figure of 24 ISDs plus 2k support ships. Our argument isn't as great as you think. "Commander" clearly exists as some kind of rank in all three branches. The difference is I choose to cross tie it based on Commander Antilles, the link with the Naval Commander and so on. I'd take issue with this purely on the grounds that the authors occasionally have no dashed idea what they're talking about. I say we should resolve "commander" when we can, but when it doesn't work, we substitute another - more sensible rank. On the question of these commanders of Corvette flotillas - they mighn't have their flags on Corvettes. The WWI fleets I quoted earlier had "Flotilla Leaders" and Light Cruisers as flags for these officers. SW example: flotilla of Corellian Corvettes with a CO on a Carrack. -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/17/04 9:21am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Argh! I just lost a day doing this! I'm nuts! -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/17/04 9:40am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	CaptainArdiff: Good points. Honestly, the more I think about it, the scenario about the defense of Mon Cal works quite well. The defenses would probably layered. First, in the outskirts of the Calamari system, you could have a series of mine fields around each major hyperspace route. Of course, the Rebels would of had to create other, secret routes to get around them. Anyway, after the outer mine fields, there would of had to of been a series or early warning systems, as well as perhaps a few small hidden bases. The defense of the planet itself would be even more complex. Firstly, I imagine that the orbiting Rebel defense fleet would most likely of been stationed around the shipyards, providing the most protection to Calamari's most precious resource. So, you have 40 or so Rebel capital ships of varying sizes protecting the shipyards, as well as any ground based starfighter squadrons. Now, according to the RASB, Mon Calamari does have a series of planetary shields. If the early warning systems worked, the Mon Cals would of had plenty of time to raise their shields. The crux of the defense would be a series of anti- orbital batteries. Hell, if Mon Cal had just 4 or 5 of the KDY v-150 ion cannons that Hoth had, they could wreak havoc on the Imperial attack fleet. Factor in several ground based turbolaser batteries, as well as the formidable defense of the individual floating cities (see the JAT or DE for an example of the cities defenses), and ou suddenly have a world that is a tough nut to crack. Anyways, just a hypothesis of mine. Ever since I read the RASB, I have been wondering what factors could of truly caused the Empire to not hit Calamari when they very well should of. But, in the end, the answer is what other have said- the Death Star. It would of brushed right past all of these defenses, and reduced Calamari to rubble. I guess the Rebels really lucked out on that one. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 1/17/04 11:40am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Doing some digging about the SS-Turbolasers Nick suggested i found this at the Unofficial Encyclop.: "w-165 Planetary Turbolaser designed by Kuat Drive Yards, this ground-based turbolaser emplacement was used for planetary defense. This immense weapon had roughly four times the power of the v-150 Planetary Defender ion cannon, and was capable of destroying an Imperial-class Star Destroyer in orbit. The w-165 was a self-contained weapon, with power generation equipment in its base. The firing vector of the w-165 was limited, so a number of these tubrolasers had be used to fully cover the arc of sky they were protecting." If somebody could be so nice and confirm that. Does this quote speak of a shielded or an unshielded vessel? How powerful has this gun to be? Also found something, that might be a picture: http://stardestroyer.net/tlc/Cannons/plandef.gif Concerning Grunger vs. Pitta, we don´t know how many ships Pitta had in addition to his Torpedo-Sphere. And 24 ISD is the lowest number of ISDs in a sector. An augmented sectorforce could have up to 80 of those. -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/17/04 3:24pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	FTeik: Yup, that picture and quote come from the Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech. As you can see by the description, these weapons are extremely powerful. If Mon Calamari had several of these, as well as the v-150 ion cannons, it would have a very potent anti ship defense. A dozen or more of these weapons, supporting a Rebel defense fleet, would be capable of destroying or severly damaging a line of Imperial Star Destroyers. BTW, does anyone ever remember a source that mentions Mon Calamari having a series of Golan stations? Most major world w/ shipyards have them. Perhaps Mon Cal does as well? --Adm. Nick -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Ton_G Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 1/17/04 3:41pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	I don't recall....but perhaps Mon Cal produced equvilents? As Golan arms wouldn't want to associate itself with the Alliance. At least that's what I would assume. I suppose older stations could be brought to Mon Cal with a one shot giant hyper-sled...a long shot, but it just might make sense. -----signature----- /___/___/___///////////////////////////___/___///// /////___/////___/___////__//____////___//////////// ////___/////__////___////___//___////___/___/////// ///___/////___/___///____ //__////___/___///////
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/17/04 4:07pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	It could be fair even to posit that the Mon Cal constructed their own stuff. As far as we know, all major Alliance warships are Mon Cal Cruisers. Now the Mon Cal are supplying these to every single Rebel fleet! I don't doubt that some of the work got subcontracted, but even so, there must be a huge number of these "converted cruiseliners" floating around. I've always been a bit suspicious of the Mon Cal pacificism idea. The ability to construct stuff to free their system and defend it against the Empire's might, as well as subsequently to equip Rebel fleets throughout the galaxy, speaks strongly for their having a vastly powerful technological base. Not one that ever gets a real mention in the lit. They have big shipyards doesn't really cover the necessary infrastructure of a people capable of providing all the major warships for the Rebellion. Admittedly, MonCal minor vessels seem far less numerous. Perhaps the MonCal vision is akin to that of the USN building prog circa WWI. This saw the construction of a fair number of highly advanced dreadnought battleships, but nothing much in the way of a cruiser screen to engage the enemy's cruiser screen, and report on the movements of the enemy fleet. AdmiralNick22, we can also posit the fact that the Imp fleet couldn't have made microjumps into the system. This wasn't standard practise till Thrawn. Therefore, the Rebels simply needed to drag asteroids into the main routes in...and bingo! No fleets get close enough to engage before the Mon Cal can recall reinforcements. The only problem with the Planet Defenders and the turbolaser analogues is that they could only cover a fixed area of sky. Even if one pops them atop mountains they still have a limited arc of fire. The one on Hoth has led to a bit of an overestimation of their use. Sure it prevents any direct assault on the base by overhead warships, but it can't target stuff over the horizon. Veers' troops are able to set down and move in without any difficulties. If this is so, then one could defend the shipyards very well with a dozen or so. But there would need to be a vast outlay of cash to place one of these things where it was needed to prevent an assault. A two-pronged Imp assault - ready to take casualties - could land (or deploy into the sea) forces to knock out the defences of the shipyards. Also, the attackers could cover part of their fleet by placing it behind the shipyards. Um, will have more ideas tomorrow...well in twenty hours or so -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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Ivo Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 1/17/04 4:20pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	The main reason that the empire never attacked Mon Cal was if they failed to take the planet it would have exposed the emperor to a bigger rebellion from larger planetary systems and the more powerful Moffs and grand admirals ( larger than the one attempted by Zaarin in the Tie fighter game). The attack fleet to take the Mon Cal system would have to be at least twice the size of the Death fleet we saw in ESB. As for the naming conventions of the ranks in the assorted GFFA military forces. I feel there is a difference in naming of ranks (not as some have put about authors laziness.) is due to the changing structures of the military. We see various different warlords and they can pretty much call themselves whatever they want. As for the rebellion/ New Republic/ to whatever, we see a gradual evolution of the way the miltary is run etc, so you can understand why they have a differing rank style, a precedent we can see here on is with the US army ( i'm not a seppo) when they decided to join the first world war the commander of the army was Gen Pershing he was ranked as the first and only six star general ( they only go up to five stars now). -----signature----- Once the avalanche has started its too late for the pebbles to vote.
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/17/04 5:07pm Subject: Ardiff, learn to use quoting - posts hard to read
	Back to WWI. There was a major British destroyer force at Harwich (I think), commanded by a Commodore (I know). Who would therefore have outranked a Captain commanding a battleship. However, the battleships were always attached to Rear Admirals and the like, so the Commodore wouldn't have been able to override orders, or send the battleship off on a jaunt. It's just the same in Star Wars. We might worry that the Sector has a Rear Admiral in charge of all Corvette level vessels. But if the commander of all cruiser size vessels is a Vice-Admiral, what difference does it make? If the V-Adm is incapacitated or otherwise removed from the chain of command, then the R Adm would assume greater importance. Even if his original Flagship is only a 2 gun, hyperdrive missing, flying chair!] Actually, this is part of a discussion where I fear the reverse. If you believe the ISB, the standard deployment would be a squadron. Say a Battle Squadron. The stereotypical deployment would be the ISD, two attack lines and a pursuit line. We get a rank order going like this: Commodore of the Squadron Line Captain of 1st Attack Line (determined by seniority) Line Captain of 2nd Attack Line Captain of the ISD Probably most of the Captains in the 1st and 2nd Attack Lines Lieutenant Commander of the Pursuit Line The Captain Lieutenants of the skirmish vessels I'm actually more worried that the pursuit line would be very vulnerable to the predations of their superiors. Having a lower rank might not be very handy in prolonged stays like this. Would the pursuit line commander be able to protect the interests of his group like that? I hope so, but I'm not sure. Nonetheless, while the ISB is probably the framework and the model to which all should aspire, it doesn't have to be true in every case. It stipulates 24 ISDs per Sector. Flashpoint: Brak Sector notes 30 ISDs in the Sector Fleet just after Yavin. (A WEG sourcebook and I bloody well lost it, too! I have only a few photocopies of some sections left!) Even if none of the Sectors we have in our mentioned sources have the requisite numbers, there are a thousand sectors, and we might only be looking at the aberrant ones. The ISB as much as admits that. It starts by talking about mission details. On the pages, it shows various augmentations. I've actually read work from people who augmented every deck of the command level to see what happens. I think at full augmentation, there were like 80 ISDs. Why can't they call in an ISD? They just talk to the next in the chain of command, explain the solution, and, if their superior agrees, they get an ISD or more. I don't understand. Sure you get things like General MacArthur in WWII, with the fighting on the mountain ranges in New Guinea. He refused to believe that the raw Australian recruits facing down elite Japanese troops were outnumbered and undersupplied, refusing their requests for reinforcements. The problem is more like the way the system's set up. Convoy units would probably come from Force Escort in any fleet. The unit that would probably pull the duty in the end is probably an Attack Line. Guess what, the entire Force does not have a single ISD. But this is all part of how capable Imperial officers are capable of making decisions that are not strictly tactical. Borleias, if I recall correctly, 6 Torpedo Spheres are mentioned. 1.9km diameter ovals, so they are. But 6 isn't many for 1,000 sectors. So I'd have no probs accepting a much higher figure. Like Han's "Don't get jittery, Luke, there are a lot of command ships." comment. Saxton takes that as evidence that Ex is not an one-off, but Dr S also says that Han's referrng to Star Destroyers is slang. I question Dr S's methodology on occasion Wasn't that Ackbar?
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RaptorRage Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 1/17/04 10:04pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/17/04 10:06pm (2 edits total) Edited By: RaptorRage
	Bleh seems I have about 20 pages of reading to do. Might have some starship chart updates with the NEGVV profile scans I've done. Looks like I can use five YV ships and a couple other prequel vessels, using the schematics that accompany the text. -----signature----- Executor SSD: 17,174 - 19,136 meters Death Star I: 160,000 - 164,592 meters Death Star II: 900,000 - 960,000 meters
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/17/04 11:09pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Mon Calamari was probably the most defended Rebel held world as of Endor (what is the stuff I heard about the Imperials getting kicked Mon Calamari off post-Endor?) Were there any other such planets heavily armed as Mon Calamari at the time in the Rebel Alliance? And the Alliance HQ world? (I forgot) -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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