Jedi Council Forums - New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)

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Author	Topic: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)
alpha_red Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 1/17/04 11:15pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	The Mon Cals kicked the Empire off their world years before ANH even started. Mon Calamari was always one of the most heavily fortified worlds in the Alliance. At the time of Endor, the Empire couldn't even get near it without far too many losses to make it worthwhile. -----signature----- Noli manare, manare in memoria. Fleet Junkie, Saxtonian Nightcrawler Yuuzhan'tar GM & EUC Senator \| The strongest bonds are forged in pain. I just officially changed my ship to Jacen/Nen Yim. Eat your heart out, slashers.
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/18/04 5:02am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Now what a moment. Didn't that KDY superlaser come out about 14 yrs AFTER Endor??? The Emperor could have dispatched Thrawn to deal with Mon Calamari. I'm sure our favorite Chiss admiral could dream up a way to take the Reb's biggest shipyard without losing a single Star Destroyer. If Thrawn hadn't been chasing Zaarin, that is. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 1/18/04 7:55am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/18/04 7:57am (2 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
	The key to a successful attack on Mon Cal is what the Empire did in Dark Empire - establish several bridgehead bases on the surface, where the defences are pointing the wrong way... where the squids can't fire on you with anything heavier than fighters and commando forces. Then use your TIEs and point-defence guns to keep them off while the stormtroopers sieze control of the shield-generators and the massive surface-based artillery, and turn it on the shipyards and orbital forts... The one thing we never see is how the World Devastators got to sea-level... that was the hard part... and I think this can be kludged as part of Thrawn's post-Bilbringi strategy that the clone Palpatine stole... Cloaking devices, anyone? - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP :===8[#]8===: Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/18/04 12:26pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/18/04 12:54pm (1 edits total) Edited By: AdmiralNick22
	RaptorRage: Welcome back!!!! You better start reading, you have alot to catch up on. Thrawn McEwok: I always wondered what king of losses the Empire took during the landing on Mon Calamari as well. Perhaps the anti-ship weapons of the planet knocked a few Devastators down before they breached the atmosphere. In fact, the Imperial attack force on Mon Calamari seemed to consist of the following: 1 Super Star Destroyer 2 or 3 Imperial class Star Destroyers 6 or more World Devastators plus various fighter squadrons, support craft, etc. The initial New Republic forces: 1 captured Imperial class Star Destroyer 1 MC-90 Mon Calamari cruiser 1 MC-80b (Mon Remonda) 2 Nebulon B escort frigates 2 Corellian corvettes various other warships/ starifghters plus the various reserve forces that arrived at the end of the battle. I am sure that there were other forces involved at the battle, these are just the ones that are visable in the comic or have been described in other sources. BTW, the Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech says that those large planetary turbolasers were installed on over 300 important NR worlds. I imagine that worlds like Coruscant, Mon Cal, Kuat, etc were given several of these weapons. CaptainArdiff: Well, technically the Mon Cals were pacifists, at least until the Clone Wars. After the Clone Wars, the Mon Cals probably disbanded any military they had, but there still retained the knowledge of how to produce one. Once the Empire came to their world, they began to produce weapons again. And the rest, as they say, is history. Ton_G: I imagine that if the Mon Calamari are capable of producing large capital ships that they are capable of producing some sort of ortibal battle station or defense platform. For all we know, they did. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/18/04 1:12pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Ivo, I can't agree that changing rank schemes are to blame for the congusion of ranks in SW. Several posts have recently been devoted to trying to work out how 'Captain' Fel could outrank 'Commanders' and afterwards get a promotion to 'Major'. The authors clearly don't understand the different rank schemes. I do mean that only as a generalisation. There are doubtless some who do know their terminology, but there are some dumb mistakes out there. Taking a non-SW example. I very much enjoyed all three LotR films, but...their depiction of cavalry attacks was rubbish. In the final film in particular there is a scene that I won't ever forget. Orcish spearmen stand firm to receive a cavalry charge...and are swept away. Some infantry on the flank are seen to break, that's fair enough. A bloody great horse with an angry man with a spear atop would worry me, too. But the forefront of the scene is occupied by spearmen who stand firm and are swept away. Horses won't do that. Horses veer away, they get afraid. They aren't emotionless robots. Trust me, even wind makes the poor things nervous, they aren't suicide horses! Now this doesn't really lessen my enjoyment of the films. But it does mean that I see that whoever came up with that scene doesn't know horses...or thinks that most people don't know/won't care. The film is evidently wrong. So is the way 'Commander' is depicted in the books. It's just wrong. I still like the books; I have no problem with the authors. But they're wrong. As for High Moffs, etc - yeah, they can call themselves whatever, and we can't tell whether the ranks mean anything. Distressing! Actually, this is part of a discussion where I fear the reverse. If you believe the ISB, the standard deployment would be a squadron. Say a Battle Squadron. The stereotypical deployment would be the ISD, two attack lines and a pursuit line. We get a rank order going like this: Commodore of the Squadron Line Captain of 1st Attack Line (determined by seniority) Line Captain of 2nd Attack Line Captain of the ISD Probably most of the Captains in the 1st and 2nd Attack Lines Lieutenant Commander of the Pursuit Line The Captain Lieutenants of the skirmish vessels I'm actually more worried that the pursuit line would be very vulnerable to the predations of their superiors. Having a lower rank might not be very handy in prolonged stays like this. Would the pursuit line commander be able to protect the interests of his group like that? I hope so, but I'm not sure. Borleias, wouldn't the existing system prevent abuses of power? In wars one generally has infantry, artillery and mobile units. Well, historically people generally don't take all the best bits together and use them like that. I do know of a WWII wargame where the German high command gathered all their best Anti-tank artillery together and made a real mess of some attacking enemy divisions. (They changed the rules the next year to prevent this ahistorical behaviour!) Not Ackbar, dear boy. It's when Luke says "I'm endangering the mission; I shouldn't have come." Somebody says don't be silly. He says "Vader's on that ship." Han replies, so as to calm him, "Don't get jittery, Luke, there are a lot of command ships." The latter part of what I wrote should have referred to the escape from Tatooine scene in ANH. SDs are seen chasing the MF, and Han says something about Imperial cruisers coming in. Saxton says this is just slang, or something similar. Double standards, methinks AdmiralNick22, I think alike. I believe that the MonCal were pragmatic pacifists. They saw the way things were going and ensured that their peaceful cruise liners had weapons hardpoints so that they could be quickly converted for their own defence. I don't think that they were caught totally unawares by Imperial attack, or if they were it was a Pearl Harbour scenario. The Imps take out a load of lesser vessels, but the most signal MC ships escape destruction and are able to strike back. ThrawnMcEwok, I concur that getting the WDs to the surface seems and impossible task without cloaking devices. Bu then the Mon Cal defences had been so downgraded by the time of Daala, that 2 ISDs can mount a credible threat to it. Hardly a system that it would take the Empire severe casualties to take. Perhaps we could posit a foolish peacetime (or, at any rate, interval in full war) reduction in armament. Like the underuse of British industry and shipbuilding between the World Wars, and the neglect of the armed forces by governments hoping for constant peace. Do we have any info on the technical max ranges of WDs? Would it be similar to the range of a black hole? We get to see Lando's ISD (Emancipator?) getting dissected/munched, but that's only at close range. -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/18/04 1:55pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/18/04 2:57pm (2 edits total) Edited By: AdmiralNick22
	Well, Mon Cals defenses were severely damaged during the Battle of Calamari. Flash forward a year later, during Daala's attack, and the world seems to have almost no defenses. As I recall, the world had a couple of B-wing squadrons and a few small capital ships in orbit. KJA describes them as small, so I guess that they were MC-40 light cruisers or the like. Not only that, but it appears that either Mon Cal did not have time to activate there planetary shield or that most of the projectors were damaged during the attack of the previous year. The world is described as undergoing repair efforts, it I imagine that they put a larger priority on repairing cities instead of weapons/defense systems. In fact, Dark Apprentice says that Mon Calamari put its first efforts into rebuilding and repairing its shipyards. At the time of Daala's attack, they were fully operational, but all the vessels were only a few months old. Note that a NR fleet responds fairly quickly to Calamari's distress call. I bet that the fleet was the NR defense fleet for the sector. I have no idea why it was not at Calamari, but I suppose that it could of been out on a training mission when Daala attacked. BTW, speaking of Calamari's shipyards, does anyone know how large they are. I recall reading somewhere that they circle the entire planet, so I imagine that they are big. Hell, we know that they are large enough to have kept a steady supply of Mon Calamari Star Cruisers going to the Rebellion, New Republic, and the Galactic Alliance. Also, I just looked at TUF to see if there were any descriptions of Mon Calamari's defenses during the NJO. Besides a large defensive fleet, it is mentioned to have Golan Defense Platforms. TUF, pg. 277 "Home defense capital ships and Golan Defense Paltforms will cease fire and divert all power to forward particle shields!" I guess that answers that question. In all, I look forward to the WotC RPG book Geonosis and the Outer Rim Worlds. It is suppose to cover over 20 OR worlds, so you can almost bank on the fact that one will be Mon Calamari. Hopefully we will get some good info for it. The other world I hope to see in the book is Bastion..... -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/18/04 6:07pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Not Ackbar, dear boy. It's when Luke says "I'm endangering the mission; I shouldn't have come." Somebody says don't be silly. He says "Vader's on that ship." Han replies, so as to calm him, "Don't get jittery, Luke, there are a lot of command ships." The latter part of what I wrote should have referred to the escape from Tatooine scene in ANH. SDs are seen chasing the MF, and Han says something about Imperial cruisers coming in. Saxton says this is just slang, or something similar. Double standards, methinks It could really just be differeing standards or given the heat of the situation slang. But the EU actually solves that for us by effectively VOIDING the usefulness of the word "cruiser" as applied in literature. Saxton attempts to use role-based analysis. It is in this thread. The HTTE Sourcebook apparently defines a cruiser as anything over 300m! That includes the Carracks, but when a definition becomes this loose, it becomes kind of useless anyway, don't you think? http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=11918689&start=14539768
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President_Sharky Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 1/18/04 9:10pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	I think that its pretty reasonable to say that the World Devastators simply got through the Calamari defences by utterly smashing them. The machines were supposed to be invincible, "more lethal than the Death Star". Looking at DE, I can see that the Emancipator's massed firing on Silencer-7, just prior to it being consumed by it, does no visible damage to the Devastator. If a full frontal weapons firing from an ISD-II doesn't even scratch the thing, I doubt that the Mon Calamari would have been capable of doing much to stop dozens of Devastators from landing on the surface. As for Daala's attack, I think that its been established that the Mon Cals were so busy repairing the surface damage caused by the Devastator attack that they could not really allocate defences to orbit. Also remember that during that time, the NR fleet has been crushed and mostly destroyed after the great battles during Operation Shadow Hand, therefore it must have been impossible to station a full fleet to cover Mon Calamari. The defences that jumped in later must have been defending the entire Mon Cal Sector, which might include other Calamari planets with colonies and resource gathering operations for the shipyards. -----signature----- Wipe out the trolls. All of them. Official Fleet Junkie
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/19/04 3:04am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	The NR sector fleet was probably not there for the same reason the Coruscant fleet was missing when Thrawn attacked. I wonder if the World Devastators consumed all the orbital platforms and shipyards??? Also, Palpatine seems to abandon good ideas (Darktroopers, World Devastators) after a major booboo but not lousy ones (don't get started). Is that a personality defect on his part? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/19/04 7:34am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Pelranius: Well, we know that they did do great damage to them. But I do not think that they all were totally destroyed. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 1/19/04 1:06pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	What was so special about the World-Devastators anyway? Duplicators and construction-droids are basically doing the same thing. So were they just special, because they were able to fly through space and were armed? -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/19/04 5:30pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Borleias, I quite concur. Anything over 300m is a cruiser is a laughable definition. Take Escort Carriers, for instance! President_Sharky, I was never certain in that bit of DE whether Emancipator was actually able to bring any firepower to bear during its last seconds. It gets sucked headlong into a controlled black hole...so I'd think the majority of its firing would be wasted. However, I do agree that the WDs are supposed to be very deadly. A point made clear by the necessity of Luke shutting 'em down...which the combined Rebel fleet was unable to do by sheer firepower alone. Also, Palpatine seems to abandon good ideas (Darktroopers, World Devastators) after a major booboo but not lousy ones (don't get started). Is that a personality defect on his part? Pelranius, I agree that's a dashed annoying thing when the idea guys think up an excellent concept, then use it for ONE thing only before relegating it to the dustbin of history. Like the TIE Defender, which made a dashing, deadly appearance in the minds of all us pro-Imps I was utterly amazed even to see the Defender having a cameo in the X-Wing series. One could argue something or other, I guess. Maybe Palpatine disliked Darktroopers, because they were harder to control than Stormies...there is no good reason, anything we come up with is just a rationalisation of Kyle's adventures. Budget cuts? In an empire capable of building a DS they cannot afford some armoured space suits? When we know that Zero-G Stormies exist? Ach, nein! Fteik, you've hit the nail on the head. Giant, heavily-shielded, heavily armed vacuum cleaners that can reconstitute whatever they suck in into a weapon to throw against their enemies. It's surely an innovative concept! But even weirder than it is innovative! -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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Ton_G Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 1/19/04 5:34pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	More than three hundred....it is so sad. LoL We really need a good ship type chart....I have tried...just look backa bit! -----signature----- /___/___/___///////////////////////////___/___///// /////___/////___/___////__//____////___//////////// ////___/////__////___////___//___////___/___/////// ///___/////___/___///____ //__////___/___///////
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JoruusCbaoth Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/19/04 9:18pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Fteik "What was so special about the World-Devastators anyway? " Going by the DESB, it pretty much indicates that they've got virtually unlimited growth potential, and that they can basically function at 100% minus a human crew. Their upper size limit has not been calculated, and I suspect it's only limited by the amount of matter they can ingest. Basically, what we saw in Dark Empire were early-stage but essentially mature devastators. Their primary engines were fed slag and waste metals until their self-controlled growth started. I'm not sure they're "meaner than the Death Star", but they certainly had potential to become such. -----signature----- Orignal Fleet Junkie
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/20/04 4:10am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	World Devastators had unlimited growth potential. Darktroopers would be easier to control then regular stormies, since they're only droids... But Palps or Thrawn could have stored them away on some forsaken Deep Core or Unknown Regions world in one of their storehouses, or on Byss (Palpatine wouldn't really waste something like that, would he?) Incidentally, what role did Admiral Fyyar have in the Maw Installation? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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