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Author Topic: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)
Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/24/04 8:31pm Subject: Sharky...
I'm quite suspicious of that statement from the CTD. Seriously, why the heck would the NR limit itself to a SINGLE DSD per year, that's a perposterous idea, and whichever minimalist writer thought of that should never touch SW ever again.


Oh, it came from Cracken's Threat Dossier? It IS a pretty minimalist piece (it estimates about 6 torpedo spheres in the entire Imp Navy.) But I have an easier time swallowing it than you do. If it is meant as a top-of-the-line command ship, production might truly be that limited.

If you use resource estimates, the Empire should have lots of Sovereigns even after losing a lot of territory. Yet even the most 'maximalist' person would say there are only 4 Sovereigns and 2 Eclipses ever built and I think the Sovereigns never quite sailed.

The # of special ships is generally far lower than what production capabilities might suggest.

The quote is pretty self contradicting anyawys, because CTD is supposed to be written just after BFC, and the DSD should have only been out for a year. If they already built 10, why reduce to 1 per year.


It is not really THAT contradicting. The first ten obviously went to high priority areas. After the most important areas are filled, production was slowed.

There is some expansion no doubt after BFC (if they didn't, they must be brain dead.)

But remember the proportion of elite ships does not have to be proportional to total capacity.

That gives the DSD a decisive advantage over the ISD-II, because it has more power available to shift to weapons or shields than the ImpStar Deuce


There might be some tech advances in efficiency, but the DSD has to fight 550m worth of length. If it has more power for both weapons and shields, it should have more than 80% of an ISD-II firepower capabilities.

It's funny. I tend to be a minimalist when it comes to the NR and a maximalist when it comes to the Empire. I don't know why. Maybe its just my bias :-)

 
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Pelranius  6495 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6497_Kir Kanos
Date Posted: 1/24/04 8:33pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
How hard would it be for the Remnant to get their hands on such a reactor (that might explain the hypermatter Pride of Yevetha at Anx Minor)

Given how much of a beating Pellaeon's SDs were taking in FH, it wouldn't surprise me if the Imperials had gotten such a thing.

 

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President_Sharky  1191 posts
Registered: Jan '04
24212_Palpatine
Date Posted: 1/24/04 9:21pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Pelranius: Maybe the NR decided to share its newfound technology in limited ways with the Empire after the Bastion Accords. However, I attribute the endurance of Pellaeon's SDs in Force Heretic to the weakness and incompetence of Commander Vorrik and his ships.

Borleias: 6 torpedo spheres in the CTD is the most ridiculous things I've ever heard! The ISB requires for there to be thousands of those things!

I would think that the DSD was actually planned to be your standard NR battlecruiser. However, in proportion to Sovereigns (whose production was only inhibited by the loss of the designs during Byss' destruction) the DSD should be a piece of cake to build. The Sovereigns and Eclipses probably would have eventually been in the hundreds, but their construction began too late, not to mention that their exotic weapons and large size would probably slow down their construction (Especially Eclipse, which was built exactly to Palpatine's specifications). I'm sure the design and developpment of that axial superlaser took the bulk of the time.

But with the DSD's their compact size alone, just over 1 km, should simplify construction. Even if every major shipyard (Kuat, Corellia, Fondor, Hast, Gyndine, Ord Tsasi, Bilbringi, etc...) built only ONE, there should be at least a hundred every year. 1 per year makes no sense otherwise, which is why I think this figure was changed soon after the in-universe writing of the CTD, because the Yevethan crisis woke the NR government up from its military slumber. By NJO there should be AT LEAST a couple hundred DSDs in service, otherwise I see no way for the NR to be able to effectively defend its territory.

I actually tend to find the middle ground when estimating the sizes of both Imperial and New Republic fleets. I always think of the Empire as having a fleet of around of 10 million ships during the ESB era, while I imagine the whole NR space fleet eventually had something like 80 thousand ships plus the picket fleets of individual planetary governments.

 

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JoruusCbaoth  3043 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6495_Joruus C'baoth
Date Posted: 1/24/04 10:48pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Look closer at the ISB, it says that there are only six torpedo spheres in service.

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/25/04 12:08am Subject: And they only just started building them...
... unless they froze production right after Yavin (when the Sourcebook was written,) Imperial production would have filled up most of the lines mandated for the OB.

The Sovereigns and Eclipses probably would have eventually been in the hundreds, but their construction began too late, not to mention that their exotic weapons and large size would probably slow down their construction (Especially Eclipse, which was built exactly to Palpatine's specifications). I'm sure the design and developpment of that axial superlaser took the bulk of the time.


But only a few were ever STARTED that we know of. If they had been started in a few more places, we'd at least have seen SOME of them make it into service. Then it would be nice to see whether the EU authors will admit defeat or whether they'd resort to something even lamer to defeat the new Sovereigns :-)

[blockquote]But with the DSD's their compact size alone, just over 1 km, should simplify construction. Even if every major shipyard (Kuat, Corellia, Fondor, Hast, Gyndine, Ord Tsasi, Bilbringi, etc...) built only ONE, there should be at least a hundred every year. 1 per year makes no sense otherwise, which is why I think this figure was changed soon after the in-universe writing of the CTD, because the Yevethan crisis woke the NR government up from its military slumber. By NJO there should be AT LEAST a couple hundred DSDs in service, otherwise I see no way for the NR to be able to effectively defend its territory.[/blockuote]

You are assuming that they didn't go for the cheap and build more carriers (which seem to be the New Republic favorite given their 'air-minded' doctrine) or Republic Star Destroyers or even just lots of small craft.

Even in a time of stupidly stringent budget cuts, there are probably reasons why the DSD is a low production project.

 
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FTeik  4083 posts
Registered: Nov '00
39843_Palpatine
Date Posted: 1/25/04 5:09am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Actually the Order of Battle for a bombard-fleet in the ISB suggest a maximum number of 240 Torpedo-Spheres.

As for the limited number of DSDs: Couldn´t it be, that the primary shipyards for those came under attack by the empire in its last offenses?

A combination of costs, suddenly limited shipyard-facilities and the need to bring new warships QUICKLY into the field could explain the lack of bigger numbers of the Defender-SD in the NR-fleet.

About the size of the empire during the years between ROTJ and HOT:

At its height the empire controlled almost the entire galaxy (or what was important of it).

In the X-Wing-novels Ysanne Isard somewhere stats, that three out of ten worlds are rebelling (note, that they are rebelling, what means, that the empire has still some control about them). So even in the worst case 70% of the galaxy are still under quasi-imperial control (Isard on Coruscant, clone-Palpatine in the deep core, Ardus Kaine in the OuterRim and a dozen warlords god knows where).

With the loss of Coruscant the imperial hold on the galaxy weakens.

During CoPL Zsinj alone controlls 1/3 of the galaxy and, since according to the EC most of his territory was absorbed by the NR, what is left of the empire controls another third (Thrawn´s later quater, the deep core, warlords like Krennel and Kaine).

5 years after RotJ an imperial fraction controlled by the returned GA Thrawn can operate with 25% of the former galaxy. Again this imperial territory doesn´t include the deep core and other factions.

At the end of TLC the territory of Thrawn has doubled on costs of the NR.

During the DarkEmpire-time the empire is reunited and gets everything back only to lose it again with the final death of Palpatine.

Before the time of BFC, according to CTD the empire contolled less than a quater, but probabely more than a fifth of the galaxy.

This means, that effectively during the seven years from 5 after Endor to 12 after Endor the empire lost 50,000 systems and still controls 200,000 major worlds.

In the following three years it loses almost everything of that.

As much as it hurts suddenly Pellaeon doesn´t look so good anymore.

 

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Pelranius  6495 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6497_Kir Kanos
Date Posted: 1/25/04 6:35am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Does anyone have any idea of how much the Remnant expanded post-NJO? (They'd probably double or triple, not to mention the fifteen percent of the total galaxy that is the UR [which works out to be about an equilivalent fifth of the known galaxy])

Wonder where all those torpedo spheres went, anyways.

 

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AdmiralNick22  6949 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/25/04 7:25am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
FTeik:

Well, I obviously am pro NR, but I have always held a soft spot for Pellaeon. As far as I can tell, he did a good job holding the Empire together. That doesn't mean that he did not lose alot of territory, but most importantly he kept the Imperial Fleet together.

In fact, the only true blunder Pellaeon did was his final offensive against the NR 13 years after Endor. As the EC said, Pellaeon, a normally cautious commander, gambled it all and lost.

He must of had some overall goal when he launched his final offensive. He must of obviously known that he could not defeat the NR, as that his whole fleet was defeated by only two of the main fleets. Of course, until some writer decides to do the much needed book about Ackbar and Pellaeon's final battle, we will not know for sure.

--Adm. Nick

 

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President_Sharky  1191 posts
Registered: Jan '04
24212_Palpatine
Date Posted: 1/25/04 11:21am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
F'tiek: Hah! Those numbers indicate that the Empire was infact larger than the New Republic at the time of the BFC, which canonically had only 11,000 planets under it. BTW, CoPL states that 1/3 of the galaxy belongs to Zsinji AND all the other warlords. So the Empire has 1/3 too. Strangely, the NR is said to have 600,000 worlds, which should amount to nearly 2/3 of the known galaxy.

The UR making up 15% of the galactic disk is pretty dumb if you ask me. 25,000 years of hyperspace exploration should have covered the entire galaxy by now, and AotC shows that the Republic has already mapped 2 sattelite galaxies, which must be thousands of light years away from the main galaxy anyways. The only explanation for the UR is that they are isolated clusters in the galactic halo, like the Ssi-Ruuvi star cluster, and that the only reason that they're unknown is because they aren't even worth exploring.

Borleias: I'm just trying to rationalize that ridiculous statement from CTD, which is why I think it was just a temporary decision to make 1 DSD per year. Remember that that ship was introduced in the quietest year in the NR's existence since its creation, so it may have been at first thought unnecessary to make hundreds of those ships, but the Yevethan Crisis would have quickly changed the minds of NR strategists. I think a carrier-based fleet would have been rethought of after the disaster at Orinda, where almost all the NR's fighters were destroyed when the original Endurance was destroyed by the Reaper.

 

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FTeik  4083 posts
Registered: Nov '00
39843_Palpatine
Date Posted: 1/25/04 12:08pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/25/04 12:28pm (2 edits total) Edited By: FTeik
We know how the NR-propaganda (or the pro-NR-bias of some sources) work.

At its height the empire controlled one million major worlds and 50 million colonies, what gives us an average of 50 colonies per major world.

Now if you take the 11,000 worlds mentioned in BTS and multiply that with 50 you almost get 600,000 worlds.

A little farfetched, i know, but still in the realm of the possible especially, if they wanted to impress the Hapans.

However, i willingly admit, that my little essay about the imperial decline only works, if we are talking about numbers of worlds and not simply volume of space. The empire could easily controll one third of the galaxy (volume-wise) in the lightly populated outer rim.

The situation becomes even worse, if some of those quotes refer to worlds and others to space.

On the other hand it would even make less to no sense, if those quotes would refer to volume.

If you ask me, the only quote about the size of imperial territories, that can´t be made fit is the quote from CTD.

A possible solution to this would be, that the CTD as an intelligence-paper for the government and the senate exaggerates the possible threat posed by the empire perhaps to keep senators in line (what was the name of this senator from Walhalla in BFC, Tig Peramis?) and to justify continued military funding (like the 5th fleet).

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/25/04 5:22pm Subject: Nick...
I'm not sure if you really want that. A two fleet level main battle, even using the BFC level force, would mean 1000 ships on the NR side. EU writers generally aren't that good at writing huge battles.

EU writers all too often have two stupid, conflicting requirements. They have to make the NR look weak and 'innocent,' so the enemy gets all the heavy equipment and all the firepower at the battle scene (like Dark Empire.)

That gives them a huge advantage. But they can't stand letting the Empire win. That means brilliant tactics on the NR side. Except the EU writers aren't very good at writing realistic, brilliant tactics either. Which is why I like Solo Command and BFC - they actually have some realism in the detail.

That means, in the end, a high probability that the official EU NR win would be a cop-out. Either:
1) Fighter-wank (Stackpole writes the story. Everyone else would be better.)
2) Sabotage that somehow manages to cause miraculous effects.
3) The enemy is ultra-incompetent that it is a wonder he hasn't died till now trying to drive his ship.
4) Just review how have Imps lost in most encounters. It generally wasn't because they were outnumbered or anything.

 
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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/25/04 5:23pm Subject: Nick...
I'm not sure if you really want that. A two fleet level main battle, even using the BFC level force, would mean 1000 ships on the NR side. EU writers generally aren't that good at writing huge battles.

EU writers all too often have two stupid, conflicting requirements. They have to make the NR look weak and 'innocent,' so the enemy gets all the heavy equipment and all the firepower at the battle scene (like Dark Empire.)

That gives them a huge advantage. But they can't stand letting the Empire win. That means brilliant tactics on the NR side. Except the EU writers aren't very good at writing realistic, brilliant tactics either. Which is why I like Solo Command and BFC - they actually have some realism in the detail.

That means, in the end, a high probability that the official EU NR win would be a cop-out. Either:
1) Fighter-wank (Stackpole writes the story. Every
one else would be better.)
2) Sabotage that somehow manages to cause miraculous effects.
3) The enemy is ultra-incompetent that it is a wonder he hasn't died till now trying to drive his ship.
4) Just review how have Imps lost in most encounters. It generally wasn't because they were outnumbered or anything.

If you want that battle to be quality, best to just leave it to your own imagination. Bring as many ships as you want on each side to achieve the correct force ratio, then the NR would win.

 
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President_Sharky  1191 posts
Registered: Jan '04
24212_Palpatine
Date Posted: 1/25/04 7:01pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/25/04 7:02pm (1 edits total) Edited By: President_Sharky
The NJO battles at Coruscant, Muscave, and Ebaq were written rather spectacularly in my opinion. Coruscant and Muscave had tens of thousands of vessels on both sides, while the Battle of Ebaq had at least several hundred ships on both sides.

Stackpole's engagements in which the fighters rule tend to be against a few ships and those ships tend to be on the small side and are overwhelmed by dozens of fighters and elite squadron tactics. I've noticed complaints by many on how Stackpole over emphasises the worth of a starfighter, but most of these complaints are gross overexaggerations. Just look at the Battle of Coruscant, Ackbar's capital ships are the only threat to the Triumph and Monarch, and the starfighters play little more than a screening role for the captial ships. The same goes for the Battles of Liiande III, Ciutric, and Ithor (all of Stackpole's large engagements).

The battles where Rogue squadron performs spectacularly are really small engagements against weak ships, and they usually have capital ship support anyways. At Vladet, a coordinated Y-Wing bombing attack (using high-yield torpedoes no doubt) was enough to kill a single Lancer Frigate, which has pretty weak armour. At Borleias, they had major capital ship support, and still failed. Against the Corruptor, they did no real damage until after the Valiant arrived and started pounding her, and even then they managed only to damage the bridge and control systems. The Valiant only did superficial damage against the Interdictor cruiser there, and those ships are lightly armed and armoured because of the gravity well projectors. The damage to the Lusankya was dealt by the freighters' high-yield proton torpedoes. Those torpedoes were meant to be mounted on a space station, so obviously a large number of them would have been enough to collapse an SSD's shields, not to mention the fact that the ISD-II Freedom was busy ripping holes in the SSD's hull along with the Valiant, which was situated at the Lusankya's blind spot.

So you can see, Stackpole's battles are hardly a fighter wankfest as you say, and they are actually very believable conflicts when you analyse them. Sorry if this derailed the discussion a little bit, but this had to be said (I very much appreciate Stackpole's battles and most of his novels).

Back on the subject of the NR, I think that its diminished territorial holdings in BFC are mainly due to the depredations of the Reborn Emperor and the because of the overwhelming force he used to retake the galaxy. However, after the Empire's final offensive and the fall of the warlords, I think the NR retook vast amounts of territory from its adversaries. To accompany this sudden expansion, warship production would have been increased for long term plans to protect everything.

 

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AdmiralNick22  6949 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/25/04 7:50pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Well, in the hands of the right author, these books could be spectacular.

A while back Brett and I created a thread that talked about the possibility of such a book or series of books. It turned out to be a pretty neat dicussion.

--Adm. Nick

 

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Excellence  24488 posts
Registered: Jul '02
6338_New Republic Seal
Date Posted: 1/25/04 8:05pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
It's a bit silly to have those "fill int he gaps" books, like the final Imperial offensive around the Corellian Trilogy period. With Ackbar vs Daala and Pellaeon. After all, you damn well know who's going to win, even specific elements of those key battle locales.

While they would be good reading in the hands of McDowell, or such, I think I'd genuinely pass on that. Yes, you knew Zsinj would be atomised a few months after Wraith Squadron, it was the fun of knowing "how" he'd be beaten before.

A book that shows what you find in Ackbar's NEGTC's entry, the Anx and other battle mentions, is purely spoiled in outcome and detail.

 

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