Author Topic: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)
Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/25/04 8:47pm Subject: Sharky...
The NJO battles at Coruscant, Muscave, and Ebaq were written rather spectacularly in my opinion. Coruscant and Muscave had tens of thousands of vessels on both sides, while the Battle of Ebaq had at least several hundred ships on both sides.


I've heard that Star by Star was great, but not having read it, I can't make definite conclusions. And even if it was, that's no guarantee he'd be picked over a small hill of less competent men.

Against the Corruptor, they did no real damage


Other than taking down the shields? Basically, they had a fighter squadron and something less than a Neb-B equivalent at the scene, and they destroyed the VSD-II. Right...

While we are talking about bias, the War Frigate suffered no discernable damage in return.

The damage to the Lusankya was dealt by the freighters' high-yield proton torpedoes. Those torpedoes were meant to be mounted on a space station, so obviously a large number of them would have been enough to collapse an SSD's shields, not to mention the fact that the ISD-II Freedom was busy ripping holes in the SSD's hull along with the Valiant, which was situated at the Lusankya's blind spot.


By that logic, since it is highly unlikely they were carrying anything heavier than the ones used on say the Victory-I, a couple of Victory-Is (each with its 80 concussion missile tubes) could destroy the SSD. Wow, what a major capital expense for nothing.

We can force ourselves to rationalize this stuff. But in the end, we all know what's happening.

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
President_Sharky  1191 posts
Registered: Jan '04
24212_Palpatine
Date Posted: 1/25/04 9:04pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
A couple of Victory-I destroyers spread out among two dozen freighters, which probably had a dozen launchers on each, plus two squadrons of space superiority fighters, three heavily modified TIE bombers, two ISD-IIs, and three squadrons of A-wings. All against a single SSD that had no effective figher support, and that was probably neglected in repairs and maintenance due to Thyferra having no repair facilities. It's pretty believable if you ask me.

The Corruptor had its shields brought down temporarily by Rogue Squadron, and they would have recharged in a few seconds, had the Valiant not appeared and broadsided its unshielded engines. All Rogue Squadron did afterwards was destroy the bridge. With no engines or control systems, the Alderran Graveyard did the rest of the work on the VSD.

 

-----signature-----
Wipe out the trolls. All of them.
Official Fleet Junkie
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/25/04 9:27pm Subject: That's not better, that's worse... - Date Edited: 2/15/06 1:46pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DVeditor
The Corruptor had its shields brought down temporarily by Rogue Squadron, and they would have recharged in a few seconds, had the Valiant not appeared and broadsided its unshielded engines. All Rogue Squadron did afterwards was destroy the bridge. With no engines or control systems, the Alderran Graveyard did the rest of the work on the VSD.


It is the shields down thing that's objectionable in the first place. Once shields are down, the relationship really changes.

A couple of Victory-I destroyers spread out among two dozen freighters, which probably had a dozen launchers on each,


Drysso only counted 150 missile weapons hits. And this is not necessarily better, even if you don't count the fact the freighters don't have much gunpower. For one thing, the freighters are a pick-up team rather than a coordinated line, so the usual argument that Rogue Squadron can use magic like coordination to increase their efficiency tenfold doesn't work. The freighters are more plentiful, but they are individually weaker by orders of magnitude.

plus two squadrons of space superiority fighters, three heavily modified TIE bombers, two ISD-IIs,


Only 1 of them is an X-Wing squadron. The others are fighters with minimal antiship ability. The ISD is there to compensate for the freighters' lack of any gunpower. The other ISD and A-wings only came after the ship is nearly crippled anyway.

and that was probably neglected in repairs and maintenance due to Thyferra having no repair facilities. It's pretty believable if you ask me.


The last part is stuff we add to console ourselves. Don't confuse that with anything Stackpole thought of.

This isn't even the ULTIMATE insult Stackpole gave us. Remember the Golan Battle Station at the battle of Bilbringi? One would have thought from TLC that it was the coordinated work of the Assault Frigates and the X-Wings. But no, it wasn't. The shields were downed by a mere EIGHT proton torpedoes. The second salvo of 8 went on the hull. Can you believe that thing was compared to a Star Destroyer?

No freighters this time. No capital ship torpedoes. Not that Stackpole really thought about this **** anyway.

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Pelranius  6495 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6497_Kir Kanos
Date Posted: 1/25/04 9:33pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Maybe there was actually a technical malfunction on the battlestation that JUST happened to coincide with the attack by Rogue squadron?

Anyways, what's the difference between a major world and a minor/colony world (and worlds like Niruan and Tatooine?)

The Remnant could conceivably have more than a thousand inhabited systems. Afterall, they could have a million colony worlds and maybe more.

I wonder why the OR never bothered with the UR (perhaps being chased off by one of those thousand threats or manipulation by the Sith lords?)

 

-----signature-----
Fleet Junkie and Proud!
Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU)
And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style
Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
President_Sharky  1191 posts
Registered: Jan '04
24212_Palpatine
Date Posted: 1/25/04 9:40pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
I see your reasoning, I conceed the point that the Golan Battle Station's shield failure by 8 fighter-equipped torpedoes was a pretty dumb idea. And you are correct in your statements about the Battle of Thyferra's slight irrealism. However, I do not think all this warrants insults to Stackpole's writing as a whole. He may sometimes boost the power of his fighters to somewhat irrealistic levels, but I just hate it when people start complaining that all his writing is terrible just because of some small technical nitpicks, which only occur in 1 in every 10 battles. His contributions are still rather significant.

Anyways, back on topic happy . Does anyone else agree that the NR significantly increased the size of its space fleet since the in-universe writing of the CTD? I would venture to guess that each of the 5 fleets would now have several thousand ships on their own, seeing as in AoC II, "elements" (small sections) of the 2nd Fleet equate to several hundred ships rallying at Commenor.

 

-----signature-----
Wipe out the trolls. All of them.
Official Fleet Junkie
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
AdmiralNick22  6941 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/25/04 10:37pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Agreed.

By the NJO, the Five Fleets seem to have expanded from around 500 warships each to at least 1,000.

Not only that, but there seems to be a greater porportion of large capital ships in these fleets as well.

--Adm. Nick

 

-----signature-----
Fleet Junkie Founding Father
Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan
"A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker
"I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi
A New Hope flag
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
AdmiralNick22  6941 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/26/04 8:52am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
The great thing about the AoC dulogy is that we get our first look at the New Republic Defense Force leadership trying to wage war against the Vong.

Its the first time we see poor Admiral Sovv, the man who had some pretty damn big shoes to fill. I love it how A'baht and other commanders keep saying, "I wish Ackbar was here" or "I wish he would come out of retirement."

Too cool!! grin

Anyway, as Sharky said, we get to see how the NR has deployed its five mobile fleets. Most were stationed around the Core, with the exception of the 5th fleet, which was at Bothawui. It does describe the fleet at Commenor as containing several hundred warships, and that only is considered a part of the 2nd Fleet!

Even though I have posted it before, I figured I would post how the five fleets are organized. the following comes from Cracken's Threat Dossier and the BFC trilogy:

Each fleet has five battle groups, with each battlegroup containing five task forces. A task force contains 20 vessels. So, doing the simple math, that works out to 100 ships a battlegroup, and 500 ships a fleet.

Now, we know that a taskforce usually contains 2 large warships, like MC-90's or ISD's, several frigates, a couple carriers, gunships, cruisers, etc.

So, since there are 25 task forces in a fleet, and each task force has two or three large cap ships, than on average one of the five fleets contains at least 50 large capital ships.

Fifty mixed Star Cruisers and Star Destroyers supported by several hundred support vessels is a impressive formation of warships, at least by NR standards. happy

--Adm. Nick

 

-----signature-----
Fleet Junkie Founding Father
Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan
"A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker
"I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi
A New Hope flag
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
President_Sharky  1191 posts
Registered: Jan '04
24212_Palpatine
Date Posted: 1/26/04 4:28pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
ADM Nick: And let us not forget that the hundreds of ships in position at Commenor was a force small enough to be under the command of a single Commodore! Imagine the size of a full fleet under the command of a fleet admiral like Treast Kre'fey. It would probably be in the thousands, with hundreds of heavy capital ships!

 

-----signature-----
Wipe out the trolls. All of them.
Official Fleet Junkie
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Ton_G  3422 posts
Registered: Aug '02
6122_Bail Organa
Date Posted: 1/26/04 5:50pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Yeah.....the "5 fleets" may have had one admiral...or should I say, chess-player who directed the fleets. 5000 Ships under one admiral....mmm tastes like breaded calamari...

 

-----signature-----
/___/___/___///////////////////////////___/___/////
/////___/////___/___////__//____////___////////////
////___/////__////___////___//___////___/___///////
///___/////___/___///____ //__////___/___///////
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 1/26/04 7:14pm Subject: Ton_G
This is not hard to believe at all. The real difficulty is not how many ships and men you have under TOTAL. It is the number of Maneuvering Elements you have. To an Admiral, he really has 5 pieces (the 5 fleets) to move around. The Fleet commander only has his own five pieces (the 5 battlegroups) to move around.

Sun Tzu once blathered that commanding 10 men is little different from commanding a million. All a matter of organization. Or something like that.

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
AdmiralNick22  6941 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/26/04 9:57pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Speaking of admirals in the NR, I have always considered them a area that is sorely overlooked.

For instance, during the NR era, we all knew that Admiral Ackbar was the top military man in the NRDF. Yet, we never really heard about the officers that served under him.

As for Commodore Brand, I can't figure out why they did not promote him by the time of the NJO. Hell if he was a commodore 12 years before it, odds are he should of recieved a promotion by now.

Oh well.

 

-----signature-----
Fleet Junkie Founding Father
Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan
"A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker
"I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi
A New Hope flag
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Pelranius  6495 posts
Registered: Apr '03
6497_Kir Kanos
Date Posted: 1/26/04 10:55pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Politics, most likely.

Though for flexibility, shouldn't the NR have created more fleets instead of merely expanding the five original ones?

How does the Empire divide up its strategic forces, anyways?

 

-----signature-----
Fleet Junkie and Proud!
Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU)
And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style
Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Wes  675 posts
Registered: Oct '00
6878_Admiral Daala
Date Posted: 1/26/04 11:09pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
It is possible Brand retired sometime early and was just reinstated during the NJO, like several other heros of the NR.

 

-----signature-----
"The tragedy of my life is I'll be remembered as a butcher of innocents and this assessment is not unfair. I cannot argue with their condemnation or with the verdict of history."
-Admiral Bosch: Freespace 2 -
Fleet Junkie
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
AdmiralNick22  6941 posts
Registered: May '03
7783_Ackbar
Date Posted: 1/27/04 6:37am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Pelranius:

Well, technically in expanding the five fleet it gives a NR fleet commander the ability to slipt his fleet into several diffferent pieces, each with respectable firepower. Besides, in times of war, it is easier to expand on older military formations than to create entirely new ones. (I know there are some exceptions, but this is usually the case.)

Well, remember that the Imperial Remnant's entire fleet at the time of the piece treaty consisted of around 200 Star Destroyers and a thousand support ships. Awhile back, Brett explained to me his hypothesis on the IR's strategic forces.

Firstly, remember that the Remnant consists of 8 sectors. Each one is defended by 12 ISD's, and a unknown amount of lesser ships. So, doing the simple math, that makes 96 SD's tied down in sector defense duties.

That leaves roughly 100 Star Destroyers as a strategic reserve. Of course, it is never explained on how the IR divided up its lesser ships.

Either way, 100 SD's and several hundred support ships probably makes up the whole of the Imperial Remnant's strategic force.

Wes:

I never really thought of that. It makes sense though. Of course, that still doesn't explain why he was not promoted in the years following the BFC. Unless of course he retired shortly after that.

 

-----signature-----
Fleet Junkie Founding Father
Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan
"A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker
"I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi
A New Hope flag
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
President_Sharky  1191 posts
Registered: Jan '04
24212_Palpatine
Date Posted: 1/27/04 9:38am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
Wes: SOL states that Commodore Brand's excessiveness promised that he would never advance from the rank of commodore, even though it was what got him promoted quickly.

Pelranius: The increased number of ships in each fleet would simply lead to the creation of more taskforces and battle groups within each fleet, and each one of those may be sent on different assignments within the specified region of space that the fleet is protecting.

 

-----signature-----
Wipe out the trolls. All of them.
Official Fleet Junkie
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History