Jedi Council Forums - New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)

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Author	Topic: New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)
AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/27/04 8:24pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	The standard NRDF doctrine in the pre-NJO years was pretty simple. While most of the NR fleet was scattered on the various duties of patrol, sector defense, escort, etc the mobile part of the fleet consisted of two integral parts: 1. The Five Fleets 2. The "cruiser" duty capital ships Firstly, the Fleets. This has been well covered an is pretty well understood. These five pieces are constantly moved depending on the various needs of the NR at that moment. The second aspect is the most exciting to me. By "Cruiser" duties I am refering to those deployments of a single major capital ships with a few small escorts. Think of the Rejuevenator from VP as the perfect example of this. Small flotillas like this, consisting of a single Star Destroyer or Star Cruiser supported by a handful of smaller vessels, were extremely common in the Outer Rim territories. Most OR worlds and sectors did not warrant a major defense, so these small formations were on constant, mobile deployment throughout there area of patrol. --Adm. Nick -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/27/04 8:59pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Thank you very much. I wonder what were the possible terms and usage of warships and other military assets provided by member worlds of the NR (ie Mon Cal, Kuat) Did the NR take command of all assets in an emergency (however that is declared) or do the member worlds voluntarily 'loan' ships and material on a individual basis with possible conditions attached? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/27/04 9:13pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Well, rememeber that worlds liek Kuat and Mon Cal sold their warships to the NR fleet. In other words, all the Mon Cal cruisers in the NR fleet are not leant to them, they have been purchased and owned by the NR. Now, worlds like Kuat, Mon Cal, Corellia, etc do have smaller planetary defense fleets, but most NR worlds are protected by a NR fleet. Now, to answer your other question, in times of dire emergency I am sure that the NR could nationalize the various planetary navies. Hope that helps. Adm. Nick -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Wes Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/27/04 10:02pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Didn't the NR 'nationalise' ships in the HoT Duology? Gavrison used his powers under Section 45 or something to get the ships there under the command of the NRDF, which was a reinstated General Calrissian. Plus in one of the X-Wing novels it is mentioned that the NR wanted to nationise the Errant Venture but Booster would only allow that if they fully armed it, left it under his command, and gave him the rank of Admiral during the Thrawn crisis. But the NR declined. Since the Errant Venture is a private vessel instead of a vessel belonging to a member of the NR that they couldn't just take it anyway, they had to ask Booster to give it to them. -----signature----- "The tragedy of my life is I'll be remembered as a butcher of innocents and this assessment is not unfair. I cannot argue with their condemnation or with the verdict of history." -Admiral Bosch: Freespace 2 - Fleet Junkie
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/27/04 10:34pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Exactly. Since there were no NR warships in the area, he used a clause from the NR charter to temporarily declare all warships from NR member worlds in the Bothawui system under direct NR control. But I imagine such a clause is not used very often. Besides, it is probably not necessary as well. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/27/04 10:36pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Thank you. The clause would be necessary in a situation like Bothawui, or if there was a stereotypical obstructionist bueraucrat blocking the way. Is the Mon Cal shipyards a sort of corporation in the same way KDY, CEC, Rendili and SFS are? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/27/04 11:17pm Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Pelranius: Hard to say. I have always been under the impression that the Mon Cal shipyards were not controlled by a corporation but by the Mon Calamari Council. In other words, the government of Mon Calamari oversees the shuipbuilding and funds it. Of course, with the new RPG book Geonosis and the Outer Rim covering Mon Calamari (Been confirmed by Dan Wallace), perhaps we will learn a little more about these famous shipyards. The Kuat entry in Coruscant and the Core Worlds has a section on KDY, so I have high hopes that we will see a section on the Mon Cal shipyards. --Adm. Nick -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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Wes Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/28/04 3:07am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess... - Date Edited: 1/28/04 3:57am (1 edits total) Edited By: Wes
	Gavrison used his general summons powers under Section 45-2 of what I guess is the NR charter. There were NR ships in the area, 4 Corvettes...you see why he wanted a few more ships to take on the 3 ISDs. Back to the New Class one thing I never got is why the carriers are so poorly armed when compared to the warships that share their frame. The carriers don't carry a significantly larger starfighter group from the warships, yet they are given 1/4 the firepower. It just seems odd... -----signature----- "The tragedy of my life is I'll be remembered as a butcher of innocents and this assessment is not unfair. I cannot argue with their condemnation or with the verdict of history." -Admiral Bosch: Freespace 2 - Fleet Junkie
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/28/04 5:24am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Surely the carriers are there simply to ensure local fighter superiority? USN carriers nowadays don't themselves have anywhere near the firepower of battleships like the USS Missouri, but they contain fighters and bombers with great destructive power. Admittedly in SW there are different fleet doctrines. Star Destroyers aren't "pure" capital ships, but have 77 or so fighters (72 TIEs and 5 Assault Gunboats) to add to their impressive bombardment capabilities. I notice that the Acclamators don't seem to possess fighter hangars or similar, but they do have impressive anti-starfighter weaponry, and are only heavily armed and armoured troop transports, anyway. Perhaps significant damage sustained to Acclamators during the Clone Wars caused a rethink about the necessity of fighter superiority, and led directly to the ISD design incorporating such a vast fighter force. -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 1/28/04 7:30am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Considering the weak carriers: Call it a f..k up. As far as i know the Majestic-Class-Cruiser or the NSD weren´t supposed to have fighters, but then WEG entered the stage and ... -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/28/04 7:42am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Honestly, there really aren't many advantages to carriers in the SW galaxy. Large, better armed vessels that can defend themselves can carry just as many fighters. Now, I understand carriers are cheaper that SD's and Mon Cal cruisers, but once you factor in the cost of the escorts needed to defend the carrier things get a little silly. Hence why after the BFC we see fewer carriers in the NR fleet. -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/28/04 8:29am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Carriers are a bit of a mess in SW. On the one hand, we on Earth have cariers that are outside the range of guns and heavily protected by escorts against missile attack. Whereas in SW, we generally see carriers in the middle of fleet engagements. I seem to recall that the SotG entry for Imperial Escort Carriers specifies that they should stay back out of the front line, so as to increase their life expectancy. However, I can count on the fingers of one head the number of times I recall an ESC turning up in a book. I don't doubt it's happened, but it sure ain't often. Anyway, the Carrier problem seems to be related to the SW battleships thing. I'm going to call ISDs and similar battleships for this section. I don't hold that opinion, I am unconvinced as to their true status, but that's neither here nor there. Compared to ships like the Dreadnaught Heavy Cruiser and the Nebulon-B Frigate, they're certainly battleships. The issue is the long range of SW capital ship, or their high relativistic speeds. These ships don't suffer from modern problems interdicting enemy missiles, and have sufficient internal volume to carry their own fighter complements. The carriers we've seen in SW so far are really no better than minimal vessels. If we were to see a true fleet carrier, it'd be about the size of a battleship (e.g. ISD at 1.6km) and have a fighter complement consistent with its size. We know an ISD only uses a tiny fraction of its internal volume for fighters, it's got crew and troop numbers reaching about 45k. So we can scrap the 9,000 troops, because it's a carrier, not an invasion vessel. We can shrink the engines, because we need fewer guns (ergo less power) and a smaller, less dense frame for the ship. We'll need more hangars to launch the greater number of fighters, and the support crew for the fighters might reach large numbers, but we're looking at a ship that can surely support the fighter equivalent of 6 ISDs at least. 6 Wings of TIEs will get up your nose. The only problem is that the ships can't fire back, and they don't need to, not with that many TIEs. They can last as long as an ISD with the same armour and similar shield specs. I personally don't understand why we don't see ships like this. It's the logical extension of the Rogue Squadron can kill everything with "coordinated firepower" doctrine. I will grant that large Imperial fighter formations would run the risk of being left without a capital ship if it were destroyed, but I'd warrant that the Empire could (in its heyday) send somebody out to pick people up within 24 hours or so. Besides which, there'd be a large number of little escorts - which don't need their own fighters, and can be tooled up with weaponry (Carracks, anybody?). -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/28/04 8:43am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	You see, I think the reason that we see few carriers in the SW galaxy is because they have really progressed beyond standard carriers. They have the tech to produce battleships that double as carriers. There is no real world equivalent. It would be like if the U.S. Navy developed a cross breed variant of the Nimitz class suppercarrier and the old Iowa class battleship. It would be over 1200 feet long, carry at least 40 or 50 combt planes (to say nothing of other support aircraft), have 9 16- inch guns, a variety of surface to air and surface to surface missiles, and several point defense weapons like the Phalanx weapon system. Sounds real cool, but we lack the ability to to produce such a vessel at present time. That is why the SW galaxy does not need true carriers. Mon Calamari Star Cruisers and Imperial Star Destroyers are the true battleship/carrier hybrid. Now, that does not mean that there is not any role a carrier to perform. A carrier is most useful in the SW galaxy as a cheap way to augment a fleets fighter squadrons. They also make great convoy escort ships, or as motherships for deep space starfighter patrols. --Adm. Nick -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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CaptainArdiff Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/28/04 9:08am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	I like your thinking, Admiral! Possibly we're getting all muddles because we're misunderstanding an ISD. in HttE they are described as mobile siege platforms - they have fighter superiority, they have heavy and light weaponry, and they have enough troops to launch a limited invasion. They're really more like advanced Acclamator troopships than traditional battleships. -----signature----- Blame Thande! www.alternatehistory.com/discussion
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 1/28/04 9:36am Subject: RE: New Republic capital ships [Black Fleet to NJO] - sorting out the mess...
	Captain_Ardiff: Good catch. I forgot about that "mobile siege platform" quote. Makes sense really. The main thing that sets the ISD apart from other large capital ships like the MC-90 and the Defender class is ground troops. Most NR capital ships, like the various classes of Mon Cal cruiser, are designed more along the lines of the battleship/carrier hybrid. I guess that makes the ISD a battleship/carrier/assault ship hybrid? I guess I will stick with "mobile siege platform". Easier to say. Of course, we have not really seen a large dedicated assault ship in the NR navy. I suppose that can be explained away as the fact that the NR rarely ever attacked planets or had need for major bombardment. I do think it would be cool to see a Acclamator style assault ship in the Galactic Alliance fleet. Perhaps even build by Rothana Heavy engineering. --Adm. Nick -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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