Jedi Council Forums - Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?

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Author	Topic: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
SWBob Registered: Jun '03	Date Posted: 8/31/03 7:17pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	what is in your pocket jedihobit -----signature----- Think of something funny. Got it? Is it really funny? Good. Thats my signature.
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Knight1192 Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 8/31/03 8:59pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	Bilbo's in his pocket. -----signature----- Knight1192 Seeker of knowledge Purveyor of history May we all be illuminated by that which we seek Check out the Star Wars theories on my website: http://www.angelfire.com/vi/knight_1192/index.html
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GRANDADMIRALAXLROSE Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 8/31/03 9:07pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	Wait a second, I'm confused. Anyways, CoJ doesnjt exist to me just like Sheryl Crow's cover of sweet child o mine doesnt. -----signature----- I'll tell you what, life is divided into two kinds of people those who like me, and those who can go to hell : I live my life like theres no tommarow, all I got I had to steal **** the haters. Chinese Democracy is here Welcome to the Jungle DJ Ashba
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 8/31/03 9:13pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	::shudder:: How dare you speak of such evil, Axl. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 8/31/03 9:44pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 8/31/03 9:46pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
	Never try to understand the logic of a purist. Dude, you just used "logic" and "purist" in the same sentence... Ha ha ha. Isn't that considered flaming? I'd like to give my thoughts on this; that is, from the perspective of a purist. I am a purist. And yet I read the EU. But aren't all purists supposed to be raving illogical people who say "OMG IF ITS NOT FROM LUCAS IT SUKCS!11!!"? That's the major misconception. It's not that I don't belive EU is canon, it's that I simply believe "canon" is a ridiculous designation. I forget whose sig states this, but it's basically arging whether this fiction or that fiction is more real. "Personal continuity" is the idea I stand by; in other words, how I see Star Wars. The movies are part of my continuity, since they are the original Star Wars. Ideas that I consider stupid, like three-eyed illegitimate sons of Palpatine or force-blocking lizards, do not fit into my continuity. Notice how I'm specifically saying "my". I'm not saying anyone else has to follow this. I'm not saying that everyone has to think those things are stupid, just that I do. I've seen some vicious completists around here, who say "You absolutely have to accept this as 100% Star Wars fact; if you don't, you are defying LFL." In the interest of fairness, I've also seen vicious purists who say "Anyone who reads the EU has no taste; it's all garbage written by talentless hacks." I like to stay away from both types. It's the same phenomonon with so-called "basher/gusher" wars. Back to personal continuity: I've recently started reading the Clone Wars comics. I read Shatterpoint. I read Cloak of Deception. I read Shadow Hunter. I I read the X-wing novels. I enjoyed all of them. And I feel they all fit within the framework that the movies have laid out. Therefore, I pretty much include them in my continuity. I can believe that Kamino was attacked, or that there was a Nebula Front, or that Wedge had a lot of adventures after ROTJ. But because I don't accept Crystal Star, or Glove of Darth Vader, or The Black Fleet Crisis as events that occured to Luke, Han, and Leia, that makes me "illogical". Whatever. I'm sure those that feel superior for "knowing the whole story of Star Wars" are happy. I don't see the fun in figuring out whether this event took place one or two days after this other, or how these tiny discrepancies can be reconciled with a complicated "fix", but I'm sure others do. I read a book because its concept sounds interesting, not so I can "know the whole story". I guess there's something wrong with that, but I sure don't see it. -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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Ulkesh2 Title: Book Club Leader Evansville, IN Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 8/31/03 10:51pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	This kind of question sparks religious wars... Catholics VS. Protestants Protestants VS. Protestants Hindu VS. Buddhism Shitte VS. Sunni and so on. In a few thousand years battles will be fought between the religions of Trek, Star Wars, and so on. Both from within and without. It all starts with... "My god(s) can beat up your god(s)". Sure it seems funny. But all orthodoxies sprang from cults. Every cult sprang from an orthodoxy. What does this have to do with Canon VS. Expanded Universe? Well does not the Judeo-Christian Bible have 'lost books'? The so called'lost books' are very much like the SW Expanded Universe materials. This same kinda thing can be found in a great many mythologies both old and new. Think about it. -----signature----- The Avalanche Has Already Begun. It Is Too Late For The Pebbles To Vote. - Kosh the Vorlon Hey Rocky Watch Me Pull A THEORY Out Of My Hat The Butler Did It - and the butler is a CYLON I'd Rather Be Bantha Tipping
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JediHobbit Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 8/31/03 11:59pm Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	good point, though I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to compare SW to major religions. What have I got in my pocket? (the answer is my precious) -----signature----- But they won't let me dream to live or live to dream.
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Syntax Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 9/1/03 12:31am Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 12:37am (3 edits total) Edited By: Syntax
	It's not that I don't belive EU is canon, it's that I simply believe "canon" is a ridiculous designation. Could you clarify that? Do you think that because you don't want the EU to be canon (i.e., a legitemate part of the Star Wars universe, just as the films are)? I forget whose sig states this, but it's basically arging whether this fiction or that fiction is more real. I think that's jp-30, who Moderates the Games forum, if I'm not mistake. But because I don't accept Crystal Star, or Glove of Darth Vader, or The Black Fleet Crisis as events that occured to Luke, Han, and Leia, that makes me "illogical". Alright, tell me the difference between you doing that, and someone covering their hands with their eyes so that they can say the sun doesn't exist and provide the Earth with light and warmth. I think the point is, the VAST majority of "purists" somehow think their word outweighs that of LFL, and that if THEY (the purists) think something "isn't canon", or they choose to "ignore" it, that it isn't actually part of the continuity or isn't canon or something. That flat-out isn't true. EVERY canon debate (and there literally IS no debate) comes down to the difference between fact and opinion. Lucasfilm fact vs purist opinion. Fact beats out opinion 100% of the time. You want to disregard The Crystal Star or something like that? Sure, go ahead. But quite literally, "personal canon" is very, very meaningless. It's just some term that purists came up with so that they could try to prop up their opinion in the face of LFL's facts. Another way to put this: Denial is not just a river in Egypt. Of course, the policy regarding canon and debating canon in the Lit forum has been very clear for a long time. Everything EU is canon, bottom line, no questions asked. And I think it's a bannable offense to debate canon in the Lit forum, if I remember correctly. (just covering myself here. I don't feel like getting banned tonight) -----signature----- Lieutenant Colonel 9-LOM "Syntax" Corsair Squadron Commanding Officer CRS Vigilant - http://www.renegadewing.com/ "That's me, the life of the party" -- 9-LOM, 'One for the Money' "Flying is for droids" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'Revenge of the Sith'
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Skywalker_1138 Registered: Jun '03	Date Posted: 9/1/03 12:39am Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	What I do is I accept that the EU is the Official Star Wars timeline but, I also constructed my own personal AU timeline so I can have a version of the Star Wars Universe that turns out like I want. It also serves as the location of most of the Fan Fics I'm writing -----signature----- "I am a Jedi, like my father before me"-Luke Skywalker "Be mindful of your thoughts,they betray you"-Obi-Wan "A Jedi's saber is his most precious possesion"-Obi-Wan Kenobi "I warn you don't underestimate my powers..."-Luke Skywalker
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Syntax Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 9/1/03 12:46am Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 12:48am (1 edits total) Edited By: Syntax
	Yeah, I do the same thing, sorta. I have a fully-mapped timeline for my fanfic character, but as far as I know, it all fits within the existing Star Wars canon. So far I haven't had any contradictions between my fanfics and existing canon sources. Of course, that's not to say that my timeline or my fanfics are canon or anything like that. Just so that's clear. -----signature----- Lieutenant Colonel 9-LOM "Syntax" Corsair Squadron Commanding Officer CRS Vigilant - http://www.renegadewing.com/ "That's me, the life of the party" -- 9-LOM, 'One for the Money' "Flying is for droids" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'Revenge of the Sith'
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Gandalf the Grey Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 4:22am Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	Never try to understand the logic of a purist. Dude, you just used "logic" and "purist" in the same sentence... There will be NO purist bashing. This is your warning. Next time I see comments like that in here there is going to be a ban. -----signature----- I play far, far too much World of Warcraft. L70s on Staghelm: Hopefire (Paladin), Silverbow (Hunter), Shadowhope (Rogue), Silverfire (Mage)
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 4:52am Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	Plain and simple. The EU isn´t canon in the sense the movies are canon. While in the literal sense everything in SW is canon, where no "infinities"-logo is printed on, we have absolute canon (movies), quasi-canon (screenplay, novels, radio-drama and ICS of the movies), and "literal canon"/ material like the EU. -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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DarthTerrious Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 9/1/03 6:22am Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 6:38am (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthTerrious
	Its pretty straight forward. The movies are Star Wars, the be all and end all. The books, games etc are just a continuation of that, but they are seen as not the true continuation by some of us "purists". Alot of those people who don't take the EU as canon were disillusioned by the early books, and especially Zahn. The NJO has just been the icing on the cake for some of us. I know some of us continually debate whether the EU is canon, but in the end LFL policy or not, its down to personal choice. Like me, for example, I don't take any of the EU to be canon. I do read some of it and actually enjoy it but it will never be Star Wars to me because it's somewhat detached from the Star Wars story, its themes and the characters themselves. But thats my personal opinion. EDIT: How the hell do purists survive between the Star Wars movies? Watch the already-released movies 6,000 times? Erm well if you havent noticed there are MOVIE forums on these boards. We use those to talk about the films, the concepts, the themes, and with the Episode 3 forum we speculate on the next chapter, of the real Star Wars story. And besides whats wrong with watching the films now and again? Isn't that what got us into Star Wars in the first place? -----signature----- In Keano we trust. ITFC through and through.
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 8:33am Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon? - Date Edited: 9/1/03 9:31am (11 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	"Sue Rostoni (Gamer #6 - Oct/Nov. 2001): Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history. Our goal is to present a continuous and unified history of the Star Wars galaxy, insofar as that history does not conflict with, or undermine the meaning of Mr. Lucas's Star Wars saga of films and screenplays. Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon. May 30, 2003 Question: The preface to David West Reynolds's article says that Lucasfilm gave its "formal imprimatur" of canon to the ICS books he wrote, and did so for at least one of them back in '99.... It seems to go against everything Sansweet and Cerasi said in 2001, and the official site's placement of the books in the EU section." Answer: Perhaps your confusion is with the meaning of Lucasfilm. "Lucasfilm canon" refers to anything produced by any of the Lucas companies, whether it be movies, books, games, or internet. "Movie canon" is only that which you see and hear in the Star Wars films. -Star Wars Editor, Leland Chee, starwars.com VIP thread The ICS books are canon. They don't carry the "Infinities" icon, so are considered part of canon. Chris ranked canon, i.e., the films and novelizations come first... meaning that if something in an EU novel or comic book or whatever contradicts something in the film, the film is more "true." Books in the EU are considered part of the canon of the universe. -Star Wars Editor, Sue Rostoni, starwars.com VIP thread Jul 23, 2003 “Question: Canon - [Are some sources] considered more accurate than others? "Answer: The only time this really becomes an issue is when there are contradictions. We will look at the issue on a case-by-case basis to determine which description works best moving forward. Factors that determine which source we use vary widely. Often we'll consider: Which source has the greater audience? Which one came first? Which one is the coolest? Does it come from a reference source (ie the Star Wars Encyclopedia or Essential Guides)? How accessible is that source currently? Which is the easiest logistically to reconcile? If a reasonable explanation can be created that blends the contradictions to paint a single consistent picture, then we'll go that route. If something was created specifically for game-mechanics (ie the destructive power of a thermal detonator being toned down for videogames), then we'll take that into consideration." -leland chee. In other words all things are the same level of canon unless an error actually crops up. Then they now have a new list of how they factor things in, on the individual basis of the information, based on other information that exists in the EU. If an error between other sources crops up, they check several factors. Often times the publication date of a source is factored in, if it came out first, then it will often times be taken into consideration as having the most accurate and original info. Which is the coolest? That depends on the individual editor, or author. Does it come from a reference source? Well as it points out refrence sources are refrence sources, that would also include the VDs and ICSs, WEG, and WOTC, as well. Note how they mention the EG, and the Encyclopedia. Easiest to logistically reconcile? Well if the majority of the works said one thing, and a newer source actually contradicted a previous sources, they’d go with the one that was most used in the other sources(as long as those sources don’t contradict was specifically said in the movie itself). For instance, that sources printed first are often more valid than sources printed later, take for instance the AOTC VD’s info about the Lost 20, which implied that Anakin was coming close to becoming the lost 21st. LFL chose ignore that info, due to the EU having all sorts of Jedi Apprentices, and Jedi Knights that fell, and instead reinterpret the Lost 20 info, as being the only “Jedi Masters” to ever have left the order. So they chose to ignore the VD, and consider it in error. Another time is with Yoda, VD implies that Dooku was the Padawan of Yoda. But instead the later EU decided to interpret that he only taught Dooku as a young child in the clan, and later on Dooku received another master instead(and that dooku had only a few sword duels with yoda at that point). Another thing that was brought to my attention was with Dan Wallace, who has mentioned to me first hand, that he was told by the Editors VD’s and ICS are at the same level of canon as the rest of the EU(but not the movies), he was going to come up with a fix for the TPM VD, that explained the VD’s info that Qui-Gon had 3 apprentices during his life time, and scholastic’s error that he had only 2. He was going to fix it in the EGTPM(not released), and later in the NEGTC, but was forced to remove the info due to continuity editors telling him that the VD was in error, and would be ignored. In the continuity editor’s viewpoint the VD was in error, and therefore less than EU canon in that instance. Though his fix did make it online officially, and is there now. Primarily they will choose to reconcile an error by taking all the info into account and try to blend it altogether as if all things are true, and were not in error. For instance, recently, in an article in Dungeon/Polyhedron magazine about the Millenium falcon, all of the various blue prints that have existed for it have been reconciled, as being actual blueprints of the Falcon that corresponded to the various changes that occured to it over the course of its history. It started out as a YT-1300F, and over the years modular changes were made to it by the different owners who got ahold of it(each blueprint corresponds to those various changes), until finally Han Solo made his own changes, to what you see in the ICS, and Millenium Falcon article. But if that’s not the case, and the things can't be reconciled, they can and will ignore stuff in the VDs, and the ICS if they are in error with other sources because they are the same level of canon as the rest of the EU, and were written by the EU, for the EU, containing EU, and edited by the EU editors. On a side note Leland Chee doesn't appear to know about it, but micro-thermal detonators have existed in star wars long before the video games used them. In the Droids cartoon by lucas, 2 were used. One that only had a blast radius wide enough to put a hole in a blast door, and nothing else. And another that was only wide enough to take out Boba Fett's Speeder, and nothing else around it.
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Syntax Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 9/1/03 8:44am Subject: RE: Why don't some people consider the Expanded Universe to be canon?
	Thank you, Val. I was waiting for you to make a post like that. -----signature----- Lieutenant Colonel 9-LOM "Syntax" Corsair Squadron Commanding Officer CRS Vigilant - http://www.renegadewing.com/ "That's me, the life of the party" -- 9-LOM, 'One for the Money' "Flying is for droids" -- Obi-Wan Kenobi, 'Revenge of the Sith'
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