Jedi Council Forums - There is no Canon?

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Author	Topic: There is no Canon?
darth_paul Registered: Apr '00	Date Posted: 1/6/04 10:26pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	Yes. Actually, it changes the character of Han Solo a great deal. -----signature----- So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.
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QuentinGeorge Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/6/04 10:27pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/6/04 10:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: QuentinGeorge
	It means a lot. It's the difference between incompetence and life experience. That Greedo missed? He's not even an important character. Maybe he was drunk? Maybe his arm was sore? But really, who cares? Yes. Actually, it changes the character of Han Solo a great deal. How? I find it difficult to believe that the only reason people liked Han Solo was because he shot Greedo first. Hell, I didn't even notice it in the film until someone else pointed it out to me. Ah well. shrugs To each his own. -----signature----- Yar
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Knight1192 Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 1/6/04 10:45pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	Could this end up having an effect on continuity? Or is this saying in the end that nothing is more important than anything else? Personally, I'd hope for the later. -----signature----- Knight1192 Seeker of knowledge Purveyor of history May we all be illuminated by that which we seek Check out the Star Wars theories on my website: http://www.angelfire.com/vi/knight_1192/index.html
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Adm_Constantine Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 1/6/04 11:06pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	How? I find it difficult to believe that the only reason people liked Han Solo was because he shot Greedo first. It changes Han because in the OT, he appears as a moneygrubbing merc loyal only to himself who brushes off the idea of religion ("I call it luck") and any kind of ideaology ("I expect to be well-paid.") At the end of ANH we realize that there is a good streak in him, or he wouldn't have saved Luke. In ESB, he starts to thaw a bit, though he's still quite a rough guy to be around. And finally, in ROTJ, he's not just fighting for the Rebels because it's convenient for him, he's willing to put his life at risk for them. It's a wonderful character arc, my personal favorite in the SW Trilogy. Flash forward to the SE trilogy. Now, Han sits while a grudge-holding bounty hunter wit ha gun in his face makes threats, then WAITS UNTIL HE FIRES to shoot him! Think about it: if a guy came up to you and shoved a gun in your face, would you let him fire first? Heck no, and neither would the original Han. But now, Han's turned into a mushy-headed do-gooder that just puts on an angry face for the public. What I've typed above is why I refuse to buy the SE. -----signature----- "I am Admiral Constantine of the Nabis Nobilite."
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Bib Fortuna, Twi'lek Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 1/6/04 11:09pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	The SE is still the definitive version, and if the movies are changed again for the DVD release, then they will be the new definitive version. So Greedo shot first. -----signature----- Delta 5 in the EUDF, armed with a canon cannon Comic Book Guy: Once again, my underwear has become tangled in a cow catcher. Homer: Unguarded breakfast, the sweetest taboo. Ralph: It tastes like burning! I have more posts than you.
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QuentinGeorge Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 1/6/04 11:11pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/6/04 11:16pm (2 edits total) Edited By: QuentinGeorge
	...But now, Han's turned into a mushy-headed do-gooder that just puts on an angry face for the public. You get all that from one shot? Considering you used quotes (which were not change) to illustrate Han's character, I don't think this one scene really has that much effect as you believe. You are saying shooting first (about a milisecond before Greedo) totally destroys his character arc? Bah? Ah well. Ideology trumps sense. I never knew how sensitive some people were about these things until I came here. Still, peace all, I mean no harm. I guess I just don't see these things as important to the story as you guys do. -----signature----- Yar
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 1/6/04 11:14pm Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/6/04 11:17pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	Its more obvious in the ANH radio drama, and to a lesser extent in the rest of the radio dramas (where han goes from being rather cold character to a heroic soul)... Now Perry made a good Han, IMO, a version of Han that actually had strong character development, rather than the fairly 2-d development seen in the movie... I like Harrison Ford and all but his version Han was kind of a weak character by literary standards (something even Ford admits himself to this day, see A&E star wars documentary).
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Vympel Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 1/7/04 12:46am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	The SE is still the definitive version, and if the movies are changed again for the DVD release, then they will be the new definitive version. So Greedo shot first. As you wish- but again, as far as I'm concerned, it's obvious to any who are not blind that the scene has been tampered with- and badly, to boot. Given my view of SW canon, such obvious, clumsy fakery is not to be treated with an iota of recognition. Maybe GL could've had the blasers replaced with walkie-talkies while he was at it.
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JediJSolo Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 1/7/04 3:11am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	It’s not canon because the scene was obviously tampered with? That doesn’t work for me, because of what it would mean in so many other situations in the movies. It would mean that, until the SE came out, Luke’s speeder actually was just riding on wheals, because they did such a bad job with the hover effect. It would mean that Obi-Wan and Darth Vader were actually just fighting each other with long sticks, because the rotoscoping was so bad. And you know what? I think it would also mean that every lightsaber fight with Darth Vader was actually just a stick fight, because of the fact that Darth Vader is wearing a helmet that reflects just about every light in the room except the one he’s supposed to be holding three inches from his face… And that scene with Han and Jabba in ANH SE wasn’t actually with the real Jabba, but a man Han was just calling Jabba, because it was obvious in that scene that Jabba was just CG… The list could go on, until we’re left with a canon that has Luke hanging from a bar with he knees, being talked to by a rubber puppet with Frank Oz’s hand up its butt. Sorry, but that view of canon doesn’t appeal to me. -----signature----- The Force reflects the life that creates it... Constructive criticism or reviews requested: http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/20439765/?3
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seeker_two Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 1/7/04 4:33am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	Does this mean that GL is adopting the Star Trek canon model when it comes to EU? ?:\| -----signature----- If Han can shoot first, why can't I?... No, Sebastian Shaw was NOT standing in for Hayden.... If it's alright with you, I'm going to pretend the whole Vong thing never happened... [link=http://starwars.wikia.com]Wookiepedia[/link]
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Vympel Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 1/7/04 6:18am Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 6:23am (3 edits total) Edited By: Vympel
	It’s not canon because the scene was obviously tampered with? It would mean that, until the SE came out ... Your entire post is a strawman. I refer to obvious, known historical revisionism made plain by the awful job they did with it- and you come back with special effects foibles? How do they apply to historical revisionism, pray tell? We know from the OT what really happened- that's why I referred to "revisionism". Does this mean that GL is adopting the Star Trek canon model when it comes to EU? The Star Trek canon model is what you see on screen is canon, and everything else, except for two Voyager books, isn't- is that what you're referring to? In any case- no. The opinions posted above are not those of George Lucas.
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Shadeleader Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 1/7/04 7:06am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	What about, "Everything I tell you is the truth/canon/a lie/the crazed, pseudo-philosophical ramblings of Big Bird." There is no canon in the sense that everything is canon unless it directly contradicts the SE or any of the PT films. That being said, I disagree with the decision to have Solo shoot first and while I do not think that it damages the character's arc in the long run, it certainly lessens the impact of his appearance above the death star trench at the end of ANH, and when all is said and done I've seen the movie so many times that if I don't know how it ends, there's something wrong with me. And thus, the point is moot. There is nothing groundbreaking about revising media after its release; editorial controversies have existed for centuries, some around similar issues to the one we're discussing right now. Sometimes it's for the best, sometimes, the revision is detrimental.
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Isbeth Title: Maryland FanForce Hos pitality Mistress Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 1/7/04 7:47am Subject: RE: There is no Canon?
	I agree with the comment that Han appeared more wusslike as the trilogy went on. In ROTJ, he was so maudlin, it was nausiating. Oh, and I don't get the "There is no canon" statement. When taken in context, it doesn't seem to carry much punch. It could be like the old "There is no Santa" debate. Yeah, but..... -----signature----- "We are not saints, but seekers", Obi Wan quoting Jedi wisdom in THE DARK RIVAL, J.A. # 2. "I want to see the color of your eyes in the wind at my side"-Xanatos in Ashes by Lia Jinn Inside Outer Space, Visit Your Local Planetarium. Gold 2,Lt.Colonel,EUDF
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JediJSolo Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 1/7/04 8:44am Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 8:45am (1 edits total) Edited By: JediJSolo
	How do they apply to historical revisionism, pray tell? How do you apply historical revisionism to something that doesn’t exist? Star Wars never happened. It’s a story, not a history. What is the difference between “badly tampered with footage” and “pour special effects work”? In this instance, there is none. It’s not tampering with history; the OT still exists in its original form, and can be easily found. But the story has been altered slightly by the SE. That doesn’t tamper with history, that merely changes the story. -----signature----- The Force reflects the life that creates it... Constructive criticism or reviews requested: http://boards.theforce.net/Beyond_the_Saga/b10477/20439765/?3
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Valiento Registered: Mar '00	Date Posted: 1/7/04 9:04am Subject: RE: There is no Canon? - Date Edited: 1/7/04 9:24am (5 edits total) Edited By: Valiento
	"wusslike" When I said "weak character" I didn't mean "Wusslike", I meant, "1-d character". As a character that shows little to no character development throughout arc of a story(a character that doesn't change). That was one of the things that Harrison Ford complains about the star wars movies(man, can he cuss the movies out), IIRC, he even complained about the one bit of character development that showed him as being a bit cold and just out for himself, being altered as well(shooting first scene)... He has gone on to say, he'd never reprise the role if Lucas ever asked him again. Indiana Jones he likes, but not Han Solo. However, he is not the only one to show disgust for the movies for various reasons. Alec Guiness, hated the movies so much, that he claimed that he was the one that talked Lucas into killing his character, because he didn't want to go on saying the bloody awful, banal lines anymore. Well, actually JediJSolo, "History" isn't a word that specifically defined to only real life, but under one official definition also "stories, and tales", so yes his use of the word is highly valid under one definition of it. However, defined further, it would be "fictional history revisionism". You know there is a reason why authors of fiction often consider themselves historians of sorts(even if they are only chronicalling the history of a fictional universe), such as was the case with Tolkien for instance. Pronunciation: 'his-t(&-)rE Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ries Etymology: Latin historia, from Greek, inquiry, history, from histOr, istOr knowing, learned; akin to Greek eidenai to know -- more at WIT Date: 14th century 1 : TALE, STORY 2 a : a chronological record of significant events (as affecting a nation or institution) often including an explanation of their causes b : a treatise presenting systematically related natural phenomena c : an account of a patient's medical background d : an established record <a prisoner with a history of violence> 3 : a branch of knowledge that records and explains past events <medieval history> 4 a : events that form the subject matter of a history b : events of the past c : one that is finished or done for <the winning streak was history> <you're history> d : previous treatment, handling, or experience (as of a metal) However, there is something that is even closer to what he's complaining about, and is found repugnant by many people, including artists, and that's "artistic revisionism". It is because of digust over "artistic revisionism" that there are many complaints when a B&W movie is colored, or even remade, for example.
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