Jedi Council Forums - Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!

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Author	Topic: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/29/04 11:04pm Subject: SSDvsSD: McEwok, your SSD rationalization
	... is the primary problem. I might even be able to compromise on some stupid planetary navy creating something they call a destroyer that anyone with a brain would have called a corvette. SSD, however, could never be anything but a Rebel moniker, because it is uselessly broad, as uselessly broad as cruiser in WEG. That was what I was telling you to look for. Darn it, I give such clear hints and you still don't know which part I really mind. In fact, if you ask me, the moniker is a sign of Rebel wishful thinking, a form of denial. So every ship larger than a Star Destroyer was prefixed by "Super", as in "It is only an exception, it is only an exception, please let this huge behemoth be an exception, I can't stand the thought of these behemoths being common, so they must be 'Super'..." But that's just me You also have to bear in mind that Basic, demotic Huttese, and even Yuuzhan Vong, contain words with instantly recognizable roots in rl Indo-European languages... I can't think of any that are actually g-canon off the top of my head, but some of the Basic and Huttese examples are Burtt-created, and thus in the highest reaches of c-canon.. SoDwise, having some similarities with Indo-European languages is hardly shocking, since humans with similar vocal cords to our own developed it. Non-SoDwise, it is interesting but a logical move to loosely base a new human language off an existing one. But that's not the same as saying that the verbal language of Basic and English are exactly the same, which is what Jello and Pilot needs to say that there was no translation involved. ---- Oh, and Lord Darth Bob, I guess we are more similar than I thought. Still, I would guess you are more enthusiastic about that Star Dreadnaught business than I am.
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/29/04 11:04pm Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
	But I'll argue for nigh-anything more consistent than the steaming, stewing pile of crap dumped by WEG's Professional Idiot Brigade on us. "Big Pointy Arrowhead Ship"? Borleias: I'll get back to you tomorrow. I'm busy studying for the quiz that I will bomb tomorrow. -----signature----- SPQR \| Iuliados auctor Dulcius urbe quid est? - Sulpicia Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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MasterControlProgram Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/29/04 11:06pm Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
	But I'll argue for nigh-anything more consistent than the steaming, stewing pile of crap dumped by WEG's Professional Idiot Brigade on us. Ah, couldn't have said it more eloquently!
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/29/04 11:07pm Subject: SSDvsSD: Deal, Jello (chitchat)
	Deal. It is National Day where I live tomorrow, so I get the day off to deal with you. In any case, over the next three hours, I have to act decisively on a couple of assignments I've been procrastinating over...
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/30/04 4:00am Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
	>>>>>>He have Han saying the planet's been totally blown away, and then saying that the firepower of half the Imperial starfleet isn't enough to destroy a planet, which is true.<<<<<< Obviously you haven´t watched ANH very closely. Otherwise you would know, that General Jan Dodonna -AFTER studying the plans and shematics of the DeathStar - tells the rebel-pilots in their briefing, that the "battlestation has a larger firepower, than HALF of the imperial starfleet". What means, that the entire starfleet has MORE firepower, than the DeathStar. >>>>>>Because George Lucas wrote his lines?<<<<<< And because George Lucas wrote Palpatine´s line about "loving the republic, loving democracy", emperor Palpatine is a totally different person, than the chancellor from AOTC. >>>>>>So an ill-informed claim is somehow the same as someone who ought to know what his own ship is? <<<<< No, a slip of tongue is, when you say something wrong, although you do - or should - know better. And still say the wrong thing. >>>>>You must have missed that whole deploy the fleet part.<<<<<< Which was weeks, if not months prior to the events happening at Besping. Care to tell me, why the Executor shouldn´t be with her escorts? Or that all of those escorts left the Executor, when the fleet deployed? >>>>>>If Han's "commandship" comment was valid because he was an ex-Imperial, then surely his "Imperial Cruiser" comment in ANH is also valid?<<<<<< Maybe because it was backed-up by Palpatine calling it the same? >>>>>>And I find it funny that a politician such as the Emperor is supposedly more well versed in the intricacies of the military than his soldier, Lord Vader. Guess you can put up any inane reasoning to defend a hopeless argument. <<<<<<< I´m sure, that Lord Vader would call it in a calm moment "Dreadnought" or "Commandship", too. >>>>>"Big Pointy Arrowhead Ship"? <<<<< One has to wonder, why Vindicators and Enforcers and the Rand Eclipted weren´t called star destroyer, if that would have been the case. -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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EH_Pilot Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/30/04 5:03am Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
	Borleias[/i]:"Sheer probability against the humans in the GFFA being not only just about physically indistinguishable is poor enough (leading to SoD theories that one of us somehow seeded the other to improve that probability), but at least the film visuals prove it. The idea they use a different written language but it is somehow the exactly same vocally as 15th-20th century English is so unlikely the burden of proof is on you to prove they must be the same rather than a mere translation.[i]" Yet why aren't Huttese, Ewokese, and any other language used translated along with Basic? [b]FTiek:"[i]Obviously you haven´t watched ANH very closely. Otherwise you would know, that General Jan Dodonna -AFTER studying the plans and shematics of the DeathStar - tells the rebel-pilots in their briefing, that the "battlestation has a larger firepower, than HALF of the imperial starfleet". " Both say it. -----signature----- Pilot of the Emperor's Hammer TIE Corps www.tiecorps.org Golden Ewok™ Recipient x4; Trojan Ewok™ Recipient -Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero-
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/30/04 6:24am Subject: SSDvsSD: EH_Pilot
	Yet why aren't Huttese, Ewokese, and any other language used translated along with Basic? That's your objection? Ewokese is particularly easy. Threepio has to translate it for his Rebel friends. It'd have been wierd and disconcerting, to say the least, if the Ewoks spoke in the same language the heroes were using. Once I watched a Japanese-Korean cooperation film (one of those where the Japanese speak Japanese and the Korean actors play Korean-speaking Koreans). They tried to translate it all to Cantonese. The problem is that in the film, the Koreans have assigned an interpreter to the Japanese cop coming to assist them. And by translating all the lines into Cantonese, that kind of made the interpreter very superfluous. The Cantonese translation wound up having to remap all the interpreter's lines, trying poorly to reportray the interpreter as some kind of assistant. To say the least, it was stupidly awkward. Thus... As for most of the other languages, it is really just to show clearly they aren't speaking the same language as the 'baseline language' of story world anymore. Very basic, level 1 portrayal technique.
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 9/30/04 7:53am Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
	Borealis: [SSDvsSD: McEwok, your SSD rationalization]... is the primary problem. I might even be able to compromise on some stupid planetary navy creating something they call a destroyer that anyone with a brain would have called a corvette. I thought you were saying that the terms were to be read as approximate translations of GFFA ones? Seriously, though - there's nothing to say that a Adz-class ship isn't notably small as destroyers go... the key point is that it has a totally different balance of weaponry from any corvette/gunship we've ever seen in SW, and it's also insanely fast... compared with the Carrack-class as the smallest light cruiser, we'd expect most destroyers to be in the 150-300m bracket... You could, for instance, argue that Saxton's ~200m "[anonymous star corvette #1]" was a destroyer design... or some of the anonymous, fast Corellian ships here, like this and the "escort" in Mysteries of the Sith... or even the infamous "Y-head corvette"... SSD, however, could never be anything but a Rebel moniker, because it is uselessly broad, as uselessly broad as cruiser in WEG. That was what I was telling you to look for. Darn it, I give such clear hints and you still don't know which part I really mind. Um, I don't see how that's 'uselessly broad'; it describes ships equipped as Star Destroyers (ie equally capable of handling themselves as carriers, planetary assault ships or starfighter platforms) is scaled up (supersized?) to the scale of a Star Dreadnaught... Now, obviously, there's an evolution of the terminology; under the Empire and NR, there's an increased tendancy to ship starfighters aboard cruisers, and in Dark Empire, the Star Destroyer seems to become something more like a big gun battleship again... so that by the NJO, the difference between a cruiser and a Star Destroyer has become primarily one of scale and hullform... and the term "destroyer" has probably all-but disappeared for smaller vessels... But that's another issue altogether... Though In fact, if you ask me, the moniker is a sign of Rebel wishful thinking, a form of denial. So every ship larger than a Star Destroyer was prefixed by "Super", as in "It is only an exception, it is only an exception, please let this huge behemoth be an exception, I can't stand the thought of these behemoths being common, so they must be 'Super'..." But that's just me Yeah, it is... "There are a lot of command ships"... SoDwise, having some similarities with Indo-European languages is hardly shocking, since humans with similar vocal cords to our own developed it. Oh, please... Pliada di am Imperium = "Plaza of the Empire" (a place on Coruscant)? And in g-canon RotJ TPM, we have clear borrowings in Huttese from languages closely related to English... Bargon = "Bargain" Ootman = "Outlander" Me = "I am" Tinka = "they think" And in RotJ, Jabba says "Jedi mind-trick" - clearly, a phrase borrowed in from Basic... That said, I hadn't seen this site before... it's kinda funky.. Non-SoDwise, it is interesting but a logical move to loosely base a new human language off an existing one. But that's not the same as saying that the verbal language of Basic and English are exactly the same, which is what Jello and Pilot needs to say that there was no translation involved. Oh, no, but I'm, not them... all I'm saying is that, even if Basic isn't to be read as English or a daughter language thereof (when there's plenty to imply that it is), we still have to postulate an influential Indo-European language in the GFFA which has influenced Basic, Huttese and Yuuzhan Vong... - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP :===8[#]8===: Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/30/04 8:15am Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
	Pliada di am Imperium = "Plaza of the Empire" (a place on Coruscant) This is Basic? So that isn't English. All I need. Ootman = "Outlander" This is not very convincing. Tinka = "they think" Neither is this. I can buy a weak relationship with "think", but which part of tinka is "they", the tink, or the a? Oh, no, but I'm, not them... all I'm saying is that, even if Basic isn't to be read as English or a daughter language thereof (when there's plenty to imply that it is), we still have to postulate an influential Indo-European language in the GFFA which has influenced Basic, Huttese and Yuuzhan Vong... Actually, SoDwise I think that it is a simple matter of common needs approaching a relatively close solution. The human vocal cords can only produce such and such noises, which leads to languages to match. Having a similar language is not totally shocking though very unlikely. Identical is a different matter. The period of time where English itself was reasonably identical with modern English is relatively short, only a band of a few hundred years, which is very short in GFFA Galactic History. Even Shakespeare can be somewhat troublesome to read because of its differences. And old English is rather incomprehensible. Yuuzhan Vong are near-humans, presumably they would have similar vocal structures. The Hutts are wierd, but perhaps we could postulate human influence in their voiceboxes.
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 9/30/04 9:52am Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
	Borealis: you're reaching... Pliada di am Imperium could be Basic, or some other language... it's the open space between what the same source describes as the "Glitannai Esplanade" and the "Imperial Palace"... we don't think of the Alamo, Yonkers, or Pall Mall as being "foreign" names in terms of the language spoken in the cities in which they're located... Regardless, the point is that it uses words with recognizable rl roots that are supposed to be read as words within a GFFA language... unless you want to argue that it's a very sophisticated translation, translating loanwords, in which case we're best off agreeing to disagree... Oh, aye, and Ben Burtt has Imperiolo for "Imperial" in Huttese, IIRC... - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP :===8[#]8===: Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/30/04 10:06am Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My! - Date Edited: 9/30/04 10:38am (1 edits total) Edited By: Borleias
	Regardless, the point is that it uses words with recognizable rl roots that are supposed to be read as words within a GFFA language... unless you want to argue that it's a very sophisticated translation, translating loanwords, in which case we're best off agreeing to disagree... SoDwise, all they are is a few coincidental, passing similarities that your Terro-centric mind automatically associated with our languages. Um, I don't see how that's 'uselessly broad'; it describes ships equipped as Star Destroyers (ie equally capable of handling themselves as carriers, planetary assault ships or starfighter platforms) is scaled up (supersized?) to the scale of a Star Dreadnaught... A designator that describes ships ranging a full order of magnitude in length is useless. For the same reason why "warship" is useless as a classifying designator. You would notice that by covering everything above 1.6km, the Rebels are using it to cover over everything from Star Cruiser to Star Dreadnaught.
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Lord_Darth_Bob Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 9/30/04 2:09pm Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My! - Date Edited: 9/30/04 2:12pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Darth_Bob
	Does anyone but me find it amusing how McEwok runs through a litany of internal inconsistencies in the use of terminology in the EU while, simultaneously, asking why it is "useless broad" terminology? The Allegiance-class Star Destroyer is a Super Star Destroyer, and has little to no hangar bay. Any significant fighter capacity or troop carrying is purely conjectural. So your niave definition of "Star Destroyer" is patently false. Even worse, is this ridiculous assertion that the Executor is a Super Star Destroyer because it is a "Star Destroyer" at the "Star Dreadnought" scale. Too bad for poor Ewoky that the Executor is a Star Dreadnought. Retcon? Maybe. Irritating? Yup. Canon? You bet. -----signature----- Things that Lucas Licensing does not consider official parts of the continuous Star Wars history show an Infinities logo or are contained in Star Wars Tales. Everything else is considered canon. Fleet Junkie - Saxtonian Bulldog Uncivilized Debater
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 9/30/04 3:17pm Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
	Borealis: SoDwise, all they are is a few coincidental, passing similarities that your Terro-centric mind automatically associated with our languages. You're just defending this position for fun now, aren't you? A designator that describes ships ranging a full order of magnitude in length is useless. For the same reason why "warship" is useless as a classifying designator. Hmm... unfortunately, it's used as a designator for the Old Republic's Cal-class and the Yuuzhan Vong Miid Ro'ik... thankfully, these both seem to be something slightly less than "pure" battleships (the Cal has a planetary-bombardment mass-driver, the Miid Ro'ik isn't such a dedicated shipkiller as the U'ro-ik V'alh)... it may have no rl parallel, but hey, it works... You would notice that by covering everything above 1.6km, the Rebels are using it to cover over everything from Star Cruiser to Star Dreadnaught. Um, no, because the Home One is classed as a "Headquarters Frigate" and/or "Star Cruiser"... similarly, there are Star Dreadnaughts and Star Battlecruisers, "Warships"... even the Executor, thanks to Saxton, now enjoys an alternative designation as a "Star Dreadnaught"... which I have no problem about... as an alternative (and IMHO less appropriate) designation... Obviously, other people disagree - but they disagree in-universe as well; that's why there are two different c-canon designations, supplementing the more straightforward g-canon "Vader's Star Destroyer"... And, yes, there is a big difference in scale from the ~2 mile Allegiance to the ~10 mile Executor and Sovereign, but these ships are rarer - probably several hundred times rarer - than Star Destroyers... You could even make a suggestion that the Allegiance represents an older "Super Star Destroyer" design, smaller than contemporary dreadnaughts like the Eye of Palpatine... the leap in scale that comes with the Executor is supposed to be unprecedented, after all... though the kludge-rific Superior-class could be earlier than the Ex... L_D_B: Does anyone but me find it amusing how McEwok runs through a litany of internal inconsistencies in the use of terminology in the EU while, simultaneously, asking why it is "useless broad" terminology? Um, looking back over the past couple of pages, I can only find Borealis complaining about "uselessly broad" terminology - tell me what you mean, and I'll try to cover my ass... The Allegiance-class Star Destroyer is a Super Star Destroyer, and has little to no hangar bay. Any significant fighter capacity or troop carrying is purely conjectural. So your niave definition of "Star Destroyer" is patently false. Um, not necessarily - the meaning of terms evolves... whereas the original "Star Destroyers" were Republic capital ships in the Clone Wars, with a versatile big gun/starfighter/planetary assault capability, the term has come by the time of the OT to mean primarily "large, triangular Imperial battleship"... by the NJO, the difference between a "Star Destroyer" and a cruiser is primarily one of scale, hullform, and cultural origin... Similarly, it's a long time since rl destroyers have been designed primarily to kill torpedo-boats... Even worse, is this ridiculous assertion that the Executor is a Super Star Destroyer because it is a "Star Destroyer" at the "Star Dreadnought" scale. Why, exactly, is this "ridiculous"? Gut reaction? Fair enough. But it works for me, and for a lot of fanboys, and most in-universe characters... Too bad for poor Ewoky that the Executor is a Star Dreadnought. Retcon? Maybe. Irritating? Yup. Canon? You bet. Um... so what? Home One is variously called a "Headquarters Frigate" and a "Star Cruiser", but might be best classed as a Warship... same ship; alternative designations... Personally, I can live with "Star Dreadnaught" as an alternative, but I don't think "Super Star Destroyer" is going to go away (unless Lucas changes Ackbar's line in RotJ, in which case, canonites will implode all around the world)... and I also happen to think that it's perfectly acceptable as a term... - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP :===8[#]8===: Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/30/04 7:18pm Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
	You're just defending this position for fun now, aren't you? That's how SoD would have evaluated it. If you look at Russian, you would find a few words, like "Kapitan" and "Leytenant" and "Kreyser", that are blatantly close to their English equivalents. But the two languages aren't all that similar at all, unless you think "Istrebietel" and Korabl are within a light year of English. Don't leap to conclusions that rapidly. Besides, my Central Core point mandates only that it not be really English. Supposing a seeding scenario (like the one in MW's Conquest FanFic), you could have brought English into the world. But because it is clearly not a recent event, and language evolves, by the Imperial era it should be very different. Hmm... unfortunately, it's used as a designator for the Old Republic's Cal-class and the Yuuzhan Vong Miid Ro'ik... thankfully, these both seem to be something slightly less than "pure" battleships (the Cal has a planetary-bombardment mass-driver, the Miid Ro'ik isn't such a dedicated shipkiller as the U'ro-ik V'alh)... it may have no rl parallel, but hey, it works... Which just goes to show we aren't really speaking the same language at all. Warship in our language is certainly a useless classifier. Um, no, because the Home One is classed as a "Headquarters Frigate" and/or "Star Cruiser"... similarly, there are Star Dreadnaughts and Star Battlecruisers, "Warships"... even the Executor, thanks to Saxton, now enjoys an alternative designation as a "Star Dreadnaught"... which I have no problem about... as an alternative (and IMHO less appropriate) designation... OK ... correction. The Rebels use it to cover everythign wedgy above 1.6km long. Remember what I said about their wishful thinking? But they obviously won't be scared by their own Home Oness. And it is a more appropriate and technically correct translation. SoDwise, it places things in perspective and avoids how SSD runs on forever. Non-SoDwise, a designation originally made for a toy-box shouldn't have been let live for that long in the first place. The Rebel designator works for them because they are in the Outer Rim, and really don't get to see large ships that often. It doesn't work nearly as well if you are in a fleet where every possible size of "Super Star Destroyer" exist: Imperial ComScan officer: "Sir! We have contact with the self-declared Warlord N's fleet." Suppression Fleet Admiral: "Composition?" "Umm, 9872 corvettes, 4532 frigates of various types, 2721 Star Destroyers, umm, 1320 Super Star Destroyers." "What kind of 'Super Star Destroyers' darn it? I need to know that! It makes a big difference in the tactics. Sheesh, we have to get rid of this useless designator." Um, not necessarily - the meaning of terms evolves... whereas the original "Star Destroyers" were Republic capital ships in the Clone Wars, with a versatile big gun/starfighter/planetary assault capability, the term has come by the time of the OT to mean primarily "large, triangular Imperial battleship"... by the NJO, the difference between a "Star Destroyer" and a cruiser is primarily one of scale, hullform, and cultural origin.. Do you know what's the problem with creating a flexible goalpost? Um... so what? Home One is variously called a "Headquarters Frigate" and a "Star Cruiser", but might be best classed as a Warship... same ship; alternative designations... Unless you are thinking of not using English, you don't want to classify anything as a "Warship". And honestly, if you translating a Basic term which really is "Warship" for some moronic reason, one would suggest you map it to an alternative term to avoid confusion. Personally, I can live with "Star Dreadnaught" as an alternative, but I don't think "Super Star Destroyer" is going to go away (unless Lucas changes Ackbar's line in RotJ, in which case, canonites will implode all around the world)... and I also happen to think that it's perfectly acceptable as a term... It really isn't. It is acceptable to the Rebels and the small ship oriented New Republic. It is acceptable if you don't have to deal with anything more than occasional Star Cruiser and Star Dreadnaught. For those of the Central Fleet, you will suffer ... deeply.
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killfire Registered: Jan '01	Date Posted: 9/30/04 10:46pm Subject: RE: Super Star Destroyers, Executor Command Ships, Star Dreadnaughts and Bears Oh My!
	The Executor was the first of the Executor-class Star Destoyer line built by Kurt Drive Yards. This typo is magnificent. Kurt Drive Yards. Sounds like a backyard garage fixing Corvettes and Mustangs. That finally explains why the Empire lost. -----signature----- iTunes / AmazonMp3 / lastfm.com: Alien AreA Latest record: Fringe Tunes
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