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Author	Topic: Journey Through the EU: Disc. Jedi Quest 6: The Shadow Trap
The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 6/17/05 5:09pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	Who needs bill's big black box when every good game on it is avaialble for PC or and other systems? -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/17/05 5:23pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	Has lots of credulity problems, but it's creativity and audacity to dare show something other than the holy Six Starwars Stuff shows it's bravery. The SSSs are sabacc, cantina, Corellians, Twi'leks, Rodians, Tatooine. Just look at Dark Lords! All the exotic aliens, the inventive locations, characters. I say exotic aliens---like Thon, Bnar, Baas. Many of the space platforms there are massive too. The scenery is distinctive, as was the transformable ships. this is one of my general beefs with the EU also. for all the hundreds of thousands of inhabited worlds there supposedly are in the GFFA, you really end up seeing the really common aliens and ship designs and such a lot. sometimes it's totally ridiculous, like in the Jabiim arc in Republic, where the Padawan Pack consists entirely of well-known alien types. gah! when i run SW RPGs, i always try to break it down in fives. one out of every five NPCs is human, one is a really common alien (Twi'lek, Rodian, Duros, etc), two are less-common but pre-existing aliens (Talz, Togruta, etc), and one in five is a "what-the-kriff-is-that?" anyway, this is one of the best aspects of the TOTJ comics. however, as Rogue points out, there's a lot not to like here. I should mention that in previous books in this series, worlds have fallen, body counts have ranged into the thousands, etc, etc. But it was all so much sound and fury, signifying nothing since we didn’t really care about any of the characters. This installment focuses on the much more compelling and resonant areas of struggle, the interior ones. This gets down where we live and, by doing so, manages to actually have a powerful message of forgiveness and hope. And the ending made me cry. Really. It’s truly beautiful and moving. Powerful and thought provoking. Lucas should take this strong and challenging an approach to the same subject matter. Seriously, this is the first EU work that I’d call “Essential.” You all need to read this beautiful and moving book. and it's... a tightly focused, small-cast thing! which, admittedly, builds on the previous few volumes of galaxy-spanning conflicts to lay groundwork, but there you go. ------- oh, Rogue, i hope you know, last time i was at Borders, i saw the DVDs for the two Ewok TV movies. they've apparently been re-released, along with the Ewoks* and Droids cartoon series. you should have no trouble finding them. have fun! -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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mrslush50 Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 6/17/05 5:44pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project - Date Edited: 6/17/05 5:46pm (1 edits total) Edited By: mrslush50
	The2ndQuest posted on 6/17/05 5:09pm Who needs bill's big black box when every good game on it is avaialble for PC or and other systems? people who don't have 1000's of dollars to spend on a high end gaming PC. duh! that was my whole point. Sweet games not available on other systems besides aformentioned overpriced PC's: Halo Halo 2 KOTOR KOTOR II Doom III Half Life 2 Jade Empire PGR 2 ect... -----signature----- Master of Ideas... Forgetter of Details Adoptee of Jedi_Sha Delta 6 (Lieutenant) EUDF Want to get added to my WUL? It's easy! See my bio for details. --> http://boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=787041
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 6/17/05 5:47pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	You actually don't have to spend that much to have a system capable of playing those titles. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 6/18/05 5:06am Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	Computers 10yrs ago here $5,000, now around $1500-2000 for double or triple the specs that the former was. I may have had to buy a new graphics card to play KOTOR, a couple hundred, but it will last for untold years and needed little else the installation didn't let me download on the spot. I haven't bought a console since N64, and don't intend to, no matter how much I want Prime, metroid Prime. For a PCer, it isn't worth the redundancy. Even if the new LOTRish Zelda looks enticing. -----signature----- Rock-a-by baby, on the treetop, Beaming with pride, the filth they hold, But when the wind blows, my temper implodes, High above a pit, filled with sharkticons, Down will come hardcover addicts, beaming no more. ©
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Jon_Bidinger Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 6/18/05 7:14am Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	What is the Most Dangerous Foe? -----signature----- Ke nu jurkad sha Mando'ade, burc'ya! Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur. Proud Winner of a Golden Ewok™.
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Sturm Antilles Title: Former Manager Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/18/05 7:20am Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project - Date Edited: 6/18/05 7:21am (1 edits total) Edited By: Sturm Antilles
	An Adventure Journal story. Edit - Wow, talk about coming full-circle. -----signature----- "You're the most compliant rebel I've ever met." - jaya02 Currently reading : About seven different novels at once.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 6/18/05 12:11pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project - Date Edited: 6/18/05 12:13pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Frankly Rogue, I think I take every bit of your recommendations on Tales of the Jedi to be the opposite of what I felt. Tales of the Jedi is ultimately from Dark Lords of the Sith to the Sith War, the best the EU has to offer. It's bizarre to say that Kevin J. Anderson GETS IT more than any other author in the EU. There's none of the problems of Dark Empire and a brightness shining every bit as brightly as the Darkness. No its not a novel, in simple images we have to read the story that a novel has word space to tell us or a movie where these images animate. However, the arcteypes flow freely. Ulic Qel Droma is a brash young hero who nevertheless believes he's incorruptable, Exar Kun is a genuinel evil human being who is honestly perplexed why he doesn't feel the same way good people do, Alema is just selfish and egotistical to the point of sociopathy, Nomi is gentle, Cay is a boy scout, and so on. Like in real Star Wars, the conflict between the Light and the Dark is the important one which few people seem to get. Kevin J. Anderson though vividely shows why a few "spoon benders" are the real importance. Destroy the Empire of Ulic and Exar, kill all their soldiers, it won't make a damn difference. The armies of evil are drawn to the wizards like ants are to a picnic. The Emperor and other Sith Lords could rebuild them in a few years at most. It doesn't make the day to day soldiers war any less grand but the heart of the evil is only defeatable by Jedi. Some particular objections I have to Rogue's statements... Exar Kun is evil because he saves some preaching Naddists. No, Exar Kun is evil because he's rescuing them solely because he wants to know what they know. Nevermind the Naddists are individuals who served a corrupt and brutal tyranny along with were deliberately trying to incite another civil war. Star wars gives us a bird's eye view into the simple motivations of the human heart....theirs only for power and greed. Why? Because only those are drawn to the Sith. It's the nature of the Dark Side to call to their own, like the Lord of the Rings with Sauron. Had Exar saved them as a Jedi, it would have been an act of mercy. Here, he saves them cause the poor people who are terrified of the murdering tyranny would deprive him of a valuable resource. Great sympathy for the oppressed masses Rogue. You also miss the subtelty Kevin uses. Oss Wilhum and the rest of the Jedi were corrupted because they opened themselves to the Dark Side and Exar Kun gave them to the Sith spirits in the holocron. They apparently weren't listening to their masters when they said the two principles lures of the Dark Side were eas knowledge and power. It was at once totally believable yet also profoundly foolish. Why was Crado murdered? Because he's incompetent. Crado was a beta male from the beginning and was drawn to the dominate personalities of Sylvar along with Exar Kun. Crado was right, he didn't have the stuff to be a Jedi. Exar Kun made his decisions for him and he was paralyzed without the ability to be told what to do. The fact that this so perfectly illustrates so many people in the real world is a testament to KJA's characterization. Kun murders him why? Because he wants a stronger minion and can't be bothered with thinking for a slave that he wanted to be at his left hand. The Sith have no affection for those they betray, they just do it. On a similiar note, you condemn Nomi Sunrider while ignoring her best friend at this point has just been murdered along with her home planet for several years destroyed plus god knows how many monstrous acts performed. A single moment of anger which she recants of, and ONLY was to remove his dark side powers, you are disgusted at but forget the millions Ulic has murdered? Redemption, ironically, I cared less for because essentially I always liked Nomi best amongst the Star Wars girls (The later Tales of the Jedi Nomi issues had Nomi as possibly the most beautiful woman in comics ever drawn) but her strength was always that she was a devoted mother and a caregiver not given to war. That she would ignore her daughter for politics seemed drastically out of character. Ulic I admit was done perfectly. His death seemed anti-climatic though. On a related note, the destruction of the Sith Empire was handled in a remarkably simple fashion in the abyssmal Sith Lords tale but it was nevertheless touched on. Naga Sadow was ousted from power for screwing up the war. So he had the Massaii kill every last Sith Lord alive at once. Without the magicians who enslaved them, the Empire collapsed into infighting and desolation
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Sturm Antilles Title: Former Manager Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 6/19/05 2:20am Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project - Date Edited: 6/19/05 2:47am (1 edits total) Edited By: Sturm Antilles
	One thing I love in Redemption is when the freighter captain takes Ulic to Yavin 4, and all of the memories of ten years ago, and the great battle there, come rushing back to Ulic...but it's sort of funny in a way, because the images of the ships there, and of Yavin itself, subtly remind you of what will occur there almost 4,000 years later... -----signature----- "You're the most compliant rebel I've ever met." - jaya02 Currently reading : About seven different novels at once.
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Rogue1-and-a-half Title: Manager: Amphitheatre Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 6/19/05 7:20pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	Charlemagne: Thought provoking post, but I still take issue with your opinions and stand by my own. You accuse me of missing Anderson's subtlety. I disagree. I, in turn, accuse you of reading subtlety where there isn't any. I find Anderson's work to be some of the most un-subtle (perhaps a better word would be "overt") in the entire EU. Not that this is always bad. Far from it. But let's call a fish a fish. Characterization is not generally a strong suit of the good Mr. Anderson (no Matrix reference intended). I think that the Tales of the Jedi stories, while superficially having an attractive gloss (as we keep mentioning, this series looks fantastic and diverse), are very shallow both emotionally and philosophically. You do attempt to defend Nomi, but I wonder how well you could attempt to argue the non-intervention policy of the Jedi. And I'm still not sure that magnitude is the correct way to measure evil. If you commit an atrocity on a single surrendered enemy, can it be said that you are not evil, simply because others have comitted greater atrocities? I don't think so. I do condemn Nomi, yes. I think I'm justified to do so. If I seem to not condemn Ulic, it's because I still really fail to grasp why or how he falls to the Dark Side. I can't really bring him to task for doing so, because his fall is so utterly unrealistic and unmotivated as to brook no criticism. He has no reason, no motivation and no true medium. Therefore, I ignore his fall in my criticisms. And no, before you say it, I don't think I've missed the "subtlety" of his fall. I don't think there is subtlety to his fall, I don't think there's anything at all to his fall. It's flawed and unbelievable. Kun at least has a reason that's understandable. Your points about Crado are granted. No real commentary here, but I'll briefly mention several works that I'm not really familiar with. Feel free to discuss them. Though, at least in the case of the first item, you've been doing so from almost the beginning, so . . . 3,956 Years Before ANH: Knights of the Old Republic – Lucasarts This one takes place around thirty years after Ulic's death. I’ve heard some of the music from this game. It was good. Thus endeth my comments. 3,951 Years Before ANH: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords – Lucasarts This one received much more mixed reviews than its predecessor did, but I’ve got no personal experience with it. 4,000 – 1,000 Years Before ANH: Untitled Hardcover – Drew Karyshyn Unreleased, of course. I'm not up on the buzz, if there is any, on these books. Untitled Hardcover – Elizabeth Hand Also unreleased 1,000 Years Before ANH: Darkness Shared – Bill Slavicsek And we've covered a lot of years in this post, even if I said nothing critical of substance. *This short story is available on Hyperspace. But didn’t I say I wasn’t going to pay money for this thing . . . Yeah, I did. Haven’t read this one. -----signature----- Don't be a fool, don't be blind Heart of mine If you can't do the time, don't do the crime Heart of mine
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 6/19/05 8:16pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	Thanks for replying. I admit I came off as too harsh so I'll apologize here and thank you for a very good post. I hope we can continue a bit of correspondence. I'll also handle a Knights of the Old Republic retrospective if you don't mind. Re: Nomi It's one of those "Star Wars momments really." Nomi Sunrider gave into anger just like Luke Skywalker did after Leia's mentioning. She gave into the Dark Side yes. She was not consumed by it though. Ulic was. He chose not once out of immense grief to do what he did but did it repeatedly for a very long time. So yes, as a whole, I think she was a far purer character. Just as Luke is more than Anakin. She had the same potential as Ulic, yes, but she was driven very further Re: Ulic Ulic Qel Droma's seduction to the Dark Side has a bit of "Devil es machine" I admit. Ulic's corruption is not just because of the Sith poison though. That only makes him angry and unable to control himself. It's like Alema gave him a permanent cocaine or amphetimine jump. Ulic's corruption was actually fairly mature for the limited space where we see why. Ulic is angry and impetuous. He wants to be a great Jedi. Except he's a screw up. He thinks being a Jedi is like Dungeons and Dragons and he's Link. After Onderon, its only his victory over King Ommin that keeps him going. The fact the Krath are HIS responsibility and he failed to contain them eats at him. So he goes after them. Possibly because he wants to make sure that the dark side secrets don't leak out like they did on Onderon (under his watch) but also to head off a Jedi task force so HE'LL be the hero. That's why he protected the Krath from assassination. Even then, he consciously chose to stop the evil from being destroyed. Afterwards, Aleema offered him sex and power which he gulped up. By the time he killed Satal, he honestly had given up being a Jedi. The Dark Side clouded his judgement until the power of the Sith totally overwhelmed him (the tatoos seemed to bestow knowledge as well as power) Only when he killed Cay did it shake him from his Binge.
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mrslush50 Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 6/20/05 12:52pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	The2ndQuest posted on 6/17/05 5:47pm You actually don't have to spend that much to have a system capable of playing those titles. can you get a system capable of playing those titles for $125? No. So my point is valid. The Xbox is the cheapest way to play KotOR. That was all I was saying. We're talking a minimum of 5 times the price to play KotOR on the PC. An Xbox would actually be cheaper than most graphics cards alone. -----signature----- Master of Ideas... Forgetter of Details Adoptee of Jedi_Sha Delta 6 (Lieutenant) EUDF Want to get added to my WUL? It's easy! See my bio for details. --> http://boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=787041
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 6/20/05 1:42pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	I grant that it depends on circumstances- if you've purchased a relatively inexpensive PC (say, less than a thousand, more than 700) within the last 3 years, games like KOTOR probably don't present a problem to play for the most part, and saves you additional fees that would likely otherwise be spent on XB Live, DVD remote kits, etc. Buying an X-Box in that same period would almost cost the same in the long run. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Whizkid Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 6/20/05 2:26pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	Well, my Xbox was $150 and my 30 or so games cost around $1300 total. My PC (P4 3.0 GHz, 512 ram, Radeon 9600XT) cost me about $1500 a year and a half ago. -----signature----- "Only a Sith deals in Absolutes" "Do, or do not. There is no try"
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Rogue1-and-a-half Title: Manager: Amphitheatre Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 6/20/05 7:16pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project - Date Edited: 6/20/05 7:27pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rogue1-and-a-half
	Jedi Versus Sith – Darko Macan The first work I'm really able to look at since Redemption, this one takes place almost 2,000 years later. To, again, give some context here, if we count the present day as the end of the NJO, then this story takes place around 975 A.D. What was going on around then . . . uh . . . well, not much, I guess, that we remember. I wasn’t expecting much. A disconnected work with a title that seems to indicate a Royal Rumble or something. I was beyond pleasantly surprised by this one. I’m going to be vague again, because this was a truly great work. The opening sequence is truly horrific and sets up Darth Bane as one of the all time great EU villains. My God, that’s just brilliant. Three young and unspoiled children are chosen to join the Jedi in battle against the Sith. It’s obvious where this is going: war rapes the world, etc etc. But it succeeds. The Clone Wars should be this nightmarish and dark. I especially like the pair of siblings who are excited about seeing the galaxy and having an adventure, finding glory in war who are then instantly vaporized before their ship can even land. It’s a chilling and ironic statement and one that sets the tone for the rest of the work. And the reappearance of Darth Bane. Finally, a villain who’s just mythic, iconic, funny, cool and frightening. Bane is one of the best villains of the entire continuity, at least in this story and his scenes here just continue to paint him as one of the coldest villains. And the dialogue is just sizzling. I love Bane’s characteristically mean spirited remark about “Everyone a Lord?” The art is just incredible here. The light especially is just amazing. The way the moonlight falls through the trees, the way the sun beams strike the page, the way the sabers move . . . my God . . . And even the minor characters are well written and interesting. There’s a character here who, like Vodo Baas, uses a staff rather than a lightsaber. Unlike Vodo Baas (who just seemed to be dicking around) this guy has a solid reason and when he finally does draw his saber it’s a mythic moment and a beautiful one to see what he uses it for. Lord Kaan is a great character is well, managing to be both pompous, humorous and interesting. I especially like the way he’s played for laughs, more subtle than I’d expect. And the conversations revolving around Bane’s poisoning are great. They give us a picture of a Sith Empire that functions not unlike the Roman Empire. Somehow even the smallest characters, like Pernicar the Scribe, are given real emotions and they carry real weight with us. That’s fascinating and to be honest I’m not sure how it’s done. And I love how even the characters who aren’t really “in” the story for most of it are interesting. Lord Farfallan, for instance, about whom the Jedi are divided in opinion. Just that small conflict, referenced a few times, makes the guy interesting and you just can’t wait to meet him. And a nice moment when we see Bane come up with the idea that there should only be two Sith at a time, seemingly off the top of his head. I love this guy. I freaking love him. That holocaust is just majestically rendered. And I love the shots of the Jedi and the Sith who had been fighting and suddenly they're BOTH terrified and horrified by what’s coming. Great stuff. A staggering section where one character remarks on the horror of a Jedi dying choking on ash, dying in a pointless battle. “No one can live in a song,” another character says. And when one Jedi remarks that “Stars knows I wouldn’t be here if I were any good at anything else,” well, you just know that you’re seeing the dead level best and most interesting and thoughtful look at both the Jedi and the Sith of the entire EU. That this is said by a character who too this point had appeared as a pure hero of mythic proportions makes it even more staggering. This is just incredibly deep writing, deeper than most novels. That this is a comic makes it even more incredible that they were able to get into characters’ psyches in such a deep and emotional way. I really can’t begin to explain how these characters just leapt off the page, each and every one of them. If they had a name, they were well developed and interesting. But for all that, the action sequences are equally well done. The speeder bike attack particularly is outstanding. You can practically hear the explosions. And Valenthyne Farfalla, for all the build up his character has received, is not a disappointment. His entrance is magnificent. I admit I laughed out loud it was so perfect. And can you not love the line “Sith happened, my Lord.” Seriously, can you not love that? Because I love it. And the confrontation between Farfalla and Hoth is fantastic with each side of the argument making sense and seeming logical. And a truly shocking moment with Charney and Githany. And a moment that, seriously, rivals the hand in the dog’s mouth at the beginning Yojimbo for just being totally frigging bizarre and disturbing. A great moment when a character delivers a prophecy and then refuses to divulge really important details. I love the way each of the main characters slowly reaches the point of giving their real name. Truly mythic and emotional. I’m intrigued by the Jedi using the bow and arrow. A personal choice? Because blasters do obviously exist at this point. An odd touch, but a nice one. The descent of one of the Sith Lords into total barking insanity is nicely rendered. I especially like the way his eyes change. God, these expressions are the best. I love when one of the bird creatures is caught lying. Her expression just cracks me up. A truly tragic moment of horror and pointless death that ranks right up there with the great nihlistic war moments comes at this point. And I have to throw props out to the moment when one of the characters falls to the dark side. I’ve been seriously underwhelmed at how the Dark Side is treated in much of the EU, seeming to gain adherents via intellectual curiosity, not at all through emotion, as the films showed us. But here . . . my God, this is the single most chilling and horrifying fall to the Dark Side of the entire EU. For once, I actually got it, I actually felt it and how easy it would be. Bane’s arrival is absolutely mythic. I freaking love the way he fades in out of the smoke and suddenly the prophecy all just becomes very clear. And a character steps in bat dung, slips and falls down. Now this is the kind of warfare I want to see. Best burn line of the entire EU: “What’s this?” “**’s smartest decision . . . his suicide.” And a character loses a hand in what must surely be the most painful and unique way I’ve ever seen. I literally flinched. God, that just hurts all the way down your body. Stunningly, movingly, heartbreakingly, the ending is one of hope. Bittersweet, yes, tragic, yes, but hope for the future. Came close to moving me to tears. all in all, this one’s an essential, in my opinion, another one to stand beside Redemption. **** stars. -----signature----- Don't be a fool, don't be blind Heart of mine If you can't do the time, don't do the crime Heart of mine
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