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Author	Topic: Journey Through the EU: Disc. Heart of Fire
DaJames Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/24/05 12:01am Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	I haven't played the game(s), but from what i've heard of the storyline, it doesn't invalidate TotJ at all. In fact, it helps the overall saga (with the new info that the Sith ruled the galaxy, which they didn't at any stage in TotJ) and continues the legacy of TotJ. -----signature----- "I did it !" - Hiro Nakamura Not enough Bothans died to bring you this post Bad Guy : Who are you ? CIA ? FBI ? Tony : Actually, i'm unemployed
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burrie Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/24/05 12:43am Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	I think Charlemagne was more referring to the fact that, despite all the struggles and sacrifices that the heroes of the TOTJ era went through, it was all pretty much for nothing, because a few years later, the Mandalorians and Sith(thought to be defeated, but apparantly not) show up, and practically start taking up huge parts of the galaxy. I personally had the same problems with Sith Lords. I had hoped that after all the adventures that everyone went through in KotOR, there was going to be peace and all for a couple of hundred years. Yet, in Sith Lords, five years later, there's still great evil out there, with the entire Jedi Order as good as dead, and the Sith/Republic appears in a state of cold war. -----signature----- "The console to unlock the door is probably hidden in some room twelve floors up, or something. How does that make sense?" - K. Katarn "Ace stole the shuttle from Wedge. An embarrassing tactical mishap quietly forgotten." - Best explanation for Tydirium
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Rogue1-and-a-half Title: Manager: Amphitheatre Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 6/24/05 8:26pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	Charlemagne, your comments on All For You are quite interesting. Again, it seems your comments have made me think in a different way. I can see what you mean and I think that helps. What's really funny about this thread is that, five years from now, I'll be wrapping up the thread and everyone will still be talking about KOTOR. 900 – 100 Years Before ANH: The Apprentice – Mike Dening This one is available in Star Wars Tales, Vol. 5, same as the last one. This one isn’t very well pinned down on the timeline, as you can see . . . not many clues in this one. About all I picked up was that it’s after the establishment of the rule of the two. To give some idea of the scale . . . it’s like an event in our history that we only know happened sometime between 1075 AD and 1875 AD. In other words, between the writing of the Tale of Genji and the end of the Civil War. That’s a pretty freaking big window. Anyway, this one finds a Sith Master who, along with his current apprentice, is harassed by a small girl who wants to be his apprentice as well. There’s an amusing bit where the apprentice helps the girl up after she is knocked down and then kills the being who knocked her down when he insults the apprentice. The master says he is disappointed. The boy tries to justify his killing only to discover that the master is upset because the boy helped the girl up. In the end, the master tells the apprentice he must deal with the girl and he does this by bringing her to the ship so she can ask the master to take her again. When the master announces that he has an apprentice already, the girl pushes the apprentice off a building and steals his lightsaber. I admit, I laughed out loud. Not sure if that’s what they were going for or not, but that’s what they got. On the whole, I liked this one. It’s a great look at the way that whole thing about more than one Sith apprentice can be complicated, even when you’ve only got one Sith apprentice. The twist isn’t out of the clear blue or anything, but it’s done with a tremendous amount of wit (I especially like the expressions of the girl and the apprentice just before she pushes him off the building). All in all, ½ out of ** stars. -----signature----- Don't be a fool, don't be blind Heart of mine If you can't do the time, don't do the crime Heart of mine
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 6/24/05 11:37pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project - Date Edited: 6/24/05 11:43pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	Yes, I meant that struggle is sort of invalidated by the loss. Knights of the Old Republic 2 * The premise is one of those things that looks good on paper but yet for some reason you question whether or not anyone was awake at the continuity police. The story opens with the character being THE LAST OF THE JEDI. Luke Skywalker was the last of the Jedi. He had the enormous responsibility on his head to rebuild the Jedi Order from scratch. Luke was uniquely well suited to this as he was willing to spend the rest of his life training new Jedi while the galaxy struggled through the turmoil of lacking a Jedi Order to protect it. The Exile is a character whom does not necessarily need to be a Jedi or want to spend the rest of his life training Jedi. He has the option of being a darksider and also being a complete ass to the Jedi. It also adds very little to the drama, though the option of training people to be Jedi is interesting. * It's interesting to see that Knights of the Old Republic has the delightful quality of establishing that the previous conflicts meant nothing. The "upping the ante" of the Clone Wars to the Empire to the NJO would definitely have ticked me off were I reader. In this case, no sooner is the Darth Revan and Darth Malak issue resolved that Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus come to power and are even WORSE. Planets are blown to pieces, body parts fly everywhere, its a Mess. On a related note, Darth Sion and Nihilus are craptacular villains. Darth Sion is a zombie, a dead Jedi Knight whose rage allows him to continue on in his own corpse. Darth Nihilus is a monster that speaks backwards and can swallow planets with the Force. Now, weird ass Darksiders are a Star Wars tradition....Palpatine had two enormous tumors on the front of his face, Darth Vader is a cyborged horror, Maul has full body tatoos, Dooku...well he's Christopher Lee, Malak was missing a jaw. Hell, I'll even buy Maw under the right circumstances. However, its a big complaint when in Star Wars you have to complain about a villain with no depth. We have no reason why Sion or Nihilus are such messed up Jedi that they apparently become carnival villains. But the brothers weird nevertheless manage to defeat the Jedi were Revan and Malak failed. I won't even touch the oddity of Nihilus as the "Dark Doppleganger" of the Exile (at least here). * The characters are sadly less engaging here. Atton Rand is interesting enough and I rather liked Mira (I always enjoy purposeless bare midriffs) but its noteworthy the two best characters are returning HK-47 and a certain Mandalorian (Making him the new Mandalore is appropriate). I don't like it when characters aren't given names (its sort of a SIMPLE thing don't you know) and Handmaiden and Disciple are good examples of this. I love platnium blondes so I'll forgive Handmaiden that. * The Jedi aren't terribly brilliant in this one and pretty much have it coming to them again. And man do they get it. * The Miraluka are extinct? Uh huh....I'll take this as a "reports of my death are greatly exagggerated" moment. * I'll take a moment to speak on the most troubling aspect of the game. The Force mechanics. Not since Traitor has anyone tried to be so bold with explaining the Force and failed so dramatically. Kreya the "Secret Mastermind" to the plot has the bold goal to destroy the Force. The annihilation of everything is a bold plan, its one that I've even used in Star Wars fanfics for suitably insnae Sith Masters. It's just that there's never really any sense that Treya has the ability or means to do what she claims. Kill all Force users, fine, that's possible. Kill everyone in the galaxy, that's possible, the Force...less so. Her method of doing so is merely to kill all Force Users which of course doesn't mean squat. Malachor V is a planet that is sooooooo evil that if you're a Jedi and step on the planet, you'll instantly be corrupted. Seriously, a Jedi master stepped on it and she became totally insane. Darth Revan is the only Jedi who wasn't corrupted. Finally, I have no idea how the idea that Nihilus and the Exile are the same person is supposed to work save the VAGUE justification that somehow the Exile was using 'Doppleganger' when he was severed from the Force and it 'came alive.' The Exile's statement when he removes Nihilus' mask is a high point of the game though. * People complain about Mara Jade being whitewashed don't have ANYTHING on Darth Revan whose revealed to have not been corrupted despite being, you know, the Dark Lord of the Sith and all. He was preparing the galaxy for the threat of the True Sith. * The "true Sith" I find as a concept to be deeply offensive. For one, as we know from the Hyperspace war comics, the true Sith weren't terribly impressive to start with. Darth Kreya goes on and on about them like they're the best thing since sliced bread. For one, not only does it make Malak and Revan less impressive. It also invalidates Exar Kun and Ulic's claim to the titles of Dark Lord and they certainly damn well earned it! Were the game developers simply being contrary? * Why the Hell is Darth Kreya's name so important though that there must always been one? * Atton's death kicks ass. I salute the man truly.
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burrie Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/25/05 6:25am Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	it also adds very little to the drama, though the option of training people to be Jedi is interesting. I rather liked that the party members would be the start of the next generation. Too bad that they cut out the bit where the Exile actually tells either the Handmaiden or Visas to start training, while s/he will travel to the outer rims to help Revan. The Jedi aren't terribly brilliant in this one and pretty much have it coming to them again. And man do they get it. Biggest. Anti-climax. ever. I mean, bloody hell, Vrook had quite a role in KotOR 1, and it was fun to have him play a more important role in KotOR 2. But then, suddenly without much of a warning bam they die. As much as I kinda disliked Vrook as a character, he definately earned a much better death scene than just a quick zap, and gone. I'll take a moment to speak on the most troubling aspect of the game. The Force mechanics. Not since Traitor has anyone tried to be so bold with explaining the Force and failed so dramatically. With this, I kinda have to disagree. I always enjoy when new perspectives and different aspects of the Force are revealed that might clash with earlier ideas. Frankly, it keeps the Force an enigma, misunderstood, and gives it a sense that we know very little about it, that there's much more to learn about it. I like it. Keep the Force a mystery. Bring up 'There is no Dark Side' ideas. Bring up 'Echoes of the Force'. Bring up Jedi Masters, Jedi Masters without the Force and mere padawans dissapearing. Especially the entire angle that Exile wasn't acutallly using his/her Force Powers, but was actually drawing upon the strengths of others to wield the Force was very, very intriguing. Seeing as how the Exile must've used some sort of a power that Nomi uses to Force-Blind Ulic on him/herself, yet still be able to draw upon the Force of others is interesting. Kreya the "Secret Mastermind" to the plot has the bold goal to destroy the Force. The annihilation of everything is a bold plan, its one that I've even used in Star Wars fanfics for suitably insnae Sith Masters. It's just that there's never really any sense that Treya has the ability or means to do what she claims. Kill all Force users, fine, that's possible. Kill everyone in the galaxy, that's possible, the Force...less so. Her method of doing so is merely to kill all Force Users which of course doesn't mean squat. Kreia's plan to kill the Force made her an interesting villain, at least, I think. The idea of actually hating the Force because it has a will that drives everyone as mere pawns never came up for me, and is an interesting perspective. As for how she was planning on doing it, I thought that she wanted to learn the technique that the Exile used to become an Echo in the Force, and basically draw the Force away completely from others somehow as well. Plausible plan? Possibly. Would it work? Judge's still out for that. * People complain about Mara Jade being whitewashed don't have ANYTHING on Darth Revan whose revealed to have not been corrupted despite being, you know, the Dark Lord of the Sith and all. He was preparing the galaxy for the threat of the True Sith. To be honest, I'm still completely against this idea as it is. If it is ever truly, completely revealed in a source that Revan was using the Dark Side and the Sith to protect the galaxy... frankly, I'll be dissapointed. I believe that that s/he basically wanted to take over the Galaxy like a good little Sith, but made sure to take over everything without much damage to prepare the galaxy for the True Sith, as you mentioned. However, in my opinion, he wouldn't have been planning on doing it for the good of the Galaxy. Rather, he wanted to protect his galaxy against the True Sith. Once the True Sith would've been defeated, s/he would rule the galaxy with an Iron Fist(tm). * The "true Sith" I find as a concept to be deeply offensive. For one, as we know from the Hyperspace war comics, the true Sith weren't terribly impressive to start with. Darth Kreya goes on and on about them like they're the best thing since sliced bread. For one, not only does it make Malak and Revan less impressive. It also invalidates Exar Kun and Ulic's claim to the titles of Dark Lord and they certainly damn well earned it! I know too little of who or what the 'True Sith' are to begin with to form ANY sort of opinion about them. When Kreia spoke off them, the idea that she was speaking about the rabble from the Hyperspace Wars didn't even come up for me. I thought that it was just some sort of a complete new villain hiding somewhere in the galaxy. And what it would entail... I dunno. For all we know, the True Sith are a group of pretenders. There's just no bloody information given about what they were, how they could've been possibly pulling the strings, and whatever Revan's connection was with them. However, I do have to let it go on the record that I was fearing of learning about a 'secret group that's actually pulling the strings' since the announcement of KotOR 2. The thought that these blokes had set up the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War... meh, I don't like it. Should KotOR 3 ever be released, I definately want an awesome tale to tie up all the loose ends. Overall, that's also part of the reason why I really dislike KotOR 2. I didn't have all that much trouble with the Mandalorian Wars so soon after TotJ, although I really disliked how there was no mention at all what happened with the TOTJ heroes. (and dammit, Zhar should've been Tott Doneeta. Keep the entire dialogue for all I care, make no mention of his past exploits, that could've been the cool cameo I wanted to see). But at the end of Knights of the Old Republic on the Light Side, it seemed like the perfect ending. With the destruction of the Sith Lords and the Star Forge, everything was slowly going to dwindle down into a peaceful state. Revan and Bastilla had undergone their darkest challenges, but now everything would be over for good, and the Jedi would prosper... ... nah, let's have an odd sense of a cold war between the Republic and the Sith(which I actually kinda liked in SL), let's have the entire Jedi Order killed off-screen, and Revan and Bastilla's trials are far from over. I think I finally understand the problems that some folks have with post-ROTJ novels. -----signature----- "The console to unlock the door is probably hidden in some room twelve floors up, or something. How does that make sense?" - K. Katarn "Ace stole the shuttle from Wedge. An embarrassing tactical mishap quietly forgotten." - Best explanation for Tydirium
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Tam_Elgrin Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 6/25/05 6:35am Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	>>"Finally, I have no idea how the idea that Nihilus and the Exile are the same person is supposed to work save the VAGUE justification that somehow the Exile was using 'Doppleganger' when he was severed from the Force and it 'came alive.' The Exile's statement when he removes Nihilus' mask is a high point of the game though."<< They said this in the game? -----signature----- hey, who turned out the lights?
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burrie Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/25/05 6:41am Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	Nothing was said in-game, no, it's overall a fan theory. One that I like for the sole purpose because it would create something interesting out of Nihilius than what we have now. -----signature----- "The console to unlock the door is probably hidden in some room twelve floors up, or something. How does that make sense?" - K. Katarn "Ace stole the shuttle from Wedge. An embarrassing tactical mishap quietly forgotten." - Best explanation for Tydirium
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 6/25/05 11:14am Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	It was said in game. The great irony was there's no way in hell for fans to know about it unless they record Nihilus' dialogue and have a way of playing it backwards. He says something in the final confrontation like "My other self is here? At last the chance to destroy him who created me!"
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 6/25/05 12:02pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project - Date Edited: 7/29 8:58pm (1 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	The Miraluka are extinct? Uh huh....I'll take this as a "reports of my death are greatly exagggerated" moment. They're the blind force users right? I think there are other sources like the WOTC planet sourcebooks that also state their near-extinction. (obviously some survived as Jerec is now one). -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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ThrawnRocks Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 6/25/05 1:06pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project - Date Edited: 6/25/05 1:06pm (2 edits total) Edited By: ThrawnRocks
	Ahh! The Apprentice! That's a good one Is that one officialy canon though? I though it was released before the new canon Tales... or are you also going through non-canons on the Timeline? -----signature----- My Icons: http://www.powow.com/thrawnrocks/icons.html Roan Fel's badassery knows no bounds. "The next Allston book should be all Syal and Myri, all the time." - Jello
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Tam_Elgrin Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 6/25/05 1:10pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	>>">>The Miraluka are extinct? Uh huh....I'll take this as a "reports of my death are greatly exagggerated" moment.<< They're the blind force users right? I think there are other sources like the WOTC planet sourcebooks that also state their near-extinction. (obviously some survived as Jerec is now one)."<< It was only the colony world of Katarr that was decimated, not the actual home world. A sorta Kothlis/Bothawui relationship, but with added genocide. -----signature----- hey, who turned out the lights?
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Rogue_Follower Title: Manager: • Lit Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 6/25/05 1:47pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	Katarr isn't the Miralukan homeworld, but a colony (Tam's analogy is quite good.) For that matter, their homeworld at the time (Alpheridies) isn't their true homeworld either, but a colony founded by them and then used when their old planet was destroyed (think of Varl, the Hutt's original homeworld, and Nal Hutta.) Alpheridies is, however, the planet where they evolved their "Force-sense" and visual blindness. Many Miraluka were killed on Katarr, but the species survived. They were quite rare (reason unknown?) during the Rise of the Empire/Rebellion Eras, IIRC.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 6/25/05 1:49pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	That was because Palpatine finished the job Nihilus started.
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burrie Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 6/25/05 4:18pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project
	The great irony was there's no way in hell for fans to know about it unless they record Nihilus' dialogue and have a way of playing it backwards. He says something in the final confrontation like "My other self is here? At last the chance to destroy him who created me!" Point, but can we really take the backwards-playing text as a fact of what Nihilius is actually meant to say? In my opinion, it shouldn't. It's just one way to make a character speak in a funny, strange voice. (and I have to say, that intrigued me in Ni's first cutscene. Made me want to learn more) -----signature----- "The console to unlock the door is probably hidden in some room twelve floors up, or something. How does that make sense?" - K. Katarn "Ace stole the shuttle from Wedge. An embarrassing tactical mishap quietly forgotten." - Best explanation for Tydirium
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 6/25/05 4:19pm Subject: RE: Journey Through the EU: A Retrospective Project - Date Edited: 6/25/05 4:19pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	True, on the other hand. It's as good an explanation as any for him. Also, its not like played backwards the words were "Chicago is the greatest band ever!"
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