Jedi Council Forums - The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)

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Author	Topic: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/23/05 3:13pm Subject: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	I got one ready from my blog... Is Palpy a Sith in Dark Empire? And how can he cheat death? -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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Nightprowler Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 7/23/05 3:24pm Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	That's pretty cool. Good point about Palpatine also knowing the Jedi arts.
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Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/23/05 3:34pm Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	Thank you. I hope it solves these issues. If there is something to contradict it, please point it out to me so I can prepare my Ret-Conning tools. -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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Nightprowler Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 7/23/05 6:53pm Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	Well, I can't find anything. But someone more well versed in the EU may say otherwise.
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Darth_Guy Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 7/23/05 7:57pm Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	Palpatine never renounced the Sith nor did he abandon the Sith ways. He was a Sith in DE. shudder -----signature----- Perhaps I'll breed some sort of albino shouting gorilla.
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Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/24/05 5:14am Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week) - Date Edited: 7/24/05 5:59am (6 edits total) Edited By: Starkeiller
	What source says so? Not D.E. I, not D.E. II, not E.E.. Everyone calls him Palpatine, not Sidious, he uses Dark Jedi to an extent he didn't when he had Sith Apprentices, his second in command, Luke in D.E. I, Sedriss in D.E. II and Xecr Nist in E.E., is a Dark Jedi, not a Sith and the Sith ghosts treat him like a traitor or something... No source states that he DID renounce the Sith, but there is evidence to support it, solving a major Continuity problem. -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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DaJames Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 7/24/05 8:59am Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	Well, the Sith renounced him. Perhaps getting kicked out of the club by its dead bosses counts as destroying the Sith ? -----signature----- "I did it !" - Hiro Nakamura Not enough Bothans died to bring you this post Bad Guy : Who are you ? CIA ? FBI ? Tony : Actually, i'm unemployed
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DarthRavenus Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 7/24/05 9:23am Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	The prequels didnt come out by the time DE was released...So Darth Sidious didnt exist yet until Lucas invented him in 1998/99! Only Vader was known(outve the films) as Dark lord of the Sith,their was no back story,and their was never any information about how Palpatine got his powers or any other title nor affiliation he may of had other than the established lone "Emperor". His origins/story along with Vader and the Clone Wars was ambiguous
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Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/24/05 10:45am Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week) - Date Edited: 7/24/05 10:47am (1 edits total) Edited By: Starkeiller
	That's why my theory works. Because back then, Palpy was just a guy who could use the Dark Side, not a Sith. And DaJames, he must have abandoned the Sith himself when Vader killed him. In E.E., he says the Sith spirits helped him get to a clone body. Yet they didn't want to help him and mocked him when he returned. Perhaps because he renounced the Sith and he didn't tell them to help him get to a clone body. When they learned, they treated him like crap. In E.E., when Palpy enters the Korriban tombs, a Sith ghost says, "Emperor of numberless worlds... Lord Vader's throne still remains empty. Have you now come to take his place and join us?". Palpy declines. Why was the throne Vader's and not Sidious'? Why did the dead guy ask him if he would take his place and join them? Because in 1995 Palpy wasn't supposed to be a Sith! That's a HUGE contradiction. GARGANTUAN. But if he had renounced the Sith after Vader threw him down the shaft? Then the dead Sith would be essentially asking, "Have you come to become a Sith again and rot with us?". This way, the Chosen One destroying the Sith and Palpy not treated like a Sith after R.o.t.S. are fixed. Look at it this way: Anakin destroyed Darth Sidious, not Palpatine, just like Vader "died" when Anakin felt sorry for his son, while Anakin died five minutes later. -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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Nightprowler Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 7/25/05 7:54am Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	See, I think that makes alot of sense.
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Obi-kokey Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 7/25/05 8:37am Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	Makes sense to me, though I like to think that he utilized a corupt version of the "force ghost" rather than being able to use it as the Jedi do, which I guess is what you said. I haven't read all of the Dark Empire trilogy I wish they would reprint it, maybe with some extra stuff to tie it in better with all the material that has been added to the universe since it was written. Its always been a contentious piece but it seems to be accepted as EU canon by nearly everyone now.
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Sauron_18 Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 7/25/05 9:45am Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	He never stopped being a sith, the Sith Lords at first asked him to rest with them, I think thats pretty nice of them, and accepting. -----signature----- San Hill is out there........hiding.......watching......
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 7/25/05 10:47am Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	Actually, the Sith lords offered Palpatine Darth Vaders throne....not Darth Sidious's one..... So assumedly Darth Sidious's throne had been filled by Sidious, the Force-imbalancing Sith, but not by Palpatine.... And you can argue Sidious may not have made a throne on Korriban, but why would Vader??? It's illogical that Vader, self-hating person he was, would want a throne as a spirit loathing himself forever.... Very good, btw -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Teaser of Chapter 9.5 is up! Wes vs Tarfang, Gavin and the Coup, Luke and Jacen, and much more! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/25/05 1:09pm Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week) - Date Edited: 7/25/05 1:20pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Starkeiller
	Obi-kokey posted: Makes sense to me, though I like to think that he utilized a corupt version of the "Force ghost" rather than being able to use it as the Jedi do, which I guess is what you said. Yup, that's what I meant. He can use the technique itself, who is merely a technique, but it doesn't actually work. He has trouble moving around as a ghost, he uses science to support it and his clone bodies rot. It's what you said, the corrupt version of the "Force ghost" Jedi technique. Why doesn't it work? Qui-Gon said that immortality can never be achieved by a Sith Lord. Let's have a look at Star Wars books, comics and games, shall we? Sith ghosts can die second deaths and be crushed into oblivion millenia after their deaths. Kun, Nadd, Ajunta Pall, they're not immortal. Also, they can't move around, they're stuck in temples, amulets, holocrons, tombs, graves and so on. Why? Qui-Gon said that immortality can be achieved through compassion, not greed. Sinrebirth posted: And you can argue Sidious may not have made a throne on Korriban, but why would Vader??? It's illogical that Vader, self-hating person he was, would want a throne as a spirit loathing himself forever... Hmmm... Let me think. Okay, the throne was built by his Evilness Lord Sidious for his own use but then he discovered the ghost 'n' clone trick and gave it to Vader as a birthday present! Vader couldn't refuse his Master! Sinrebirth posted: Very good, b.t.w.. Thanks. I pray that some V.I.P. may consider checking it... -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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Darth_Invidious Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 7/27/05 4:17am Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week)
	I really don't see Dark Empire's Palpatine (He A Sith/Not a Sith?) not so much as a continuity error but rather as Tom Veitch simply not knowing the future, or merely not knowing the eventual shape and manner of the Sith. Dark Empire was written possibly a good ten years before TPM came out, back when Darth Vader was the only known Dark Lord of the Sith and no one had a clear idea what the Dark Lords truly were. No one could've imagined that "Darth" was in actually not a unique name, but rather a Sith honorific. No Darth Bane, no so-called Rule of Two. Nothing. The mythology of the Sith was basically invented around the time TPM came out, and it has been up to the EU to bridge these Sith with those Dark Jedi and old Sith Lords from the "Tales of the Jedi" comics. For all Veitch or Zahn or anyone writing the early EU knew, the Dark Lords could've been the Dark Side adepts answer to the Jedi, wherein Darth Vader was the latest, designated as such by Dark Side Master Palpatine. Curiously enough, IIRC, Veitch and Kevin Anderson may have created the Rule of Two in their old Tales of the Jedi comics. There were reigning Dark Lord Masters and subservant apprentices (Freedon Nadd was one of these). Then when Uliq-Qel-Droma confronted Exar Kun, the spirit of a long dead Sith (Marka Ragnos?) appeared to them and designated double-bladed-lightsaber-weilding Kun the Master and Qel-Droma the Apprentice. If George Lucas expects me to believe he didn't borrow from these comics to craft his Sith mythology, then maybe he also expects me to buy a bridge or two from him! But I digress... We now know the nature of Palpatine and the Sith in general. Palpatine was Darth Sidious and was also the last Dark Lord, and that's all there is to it. The fact he is never adressed as such in Dark Empire shouldn't be too much of an obstacle to enjoy it(I mean, for those that can enjoy it; I myself found Veitch's writing to be much more cringe-inducing than Lucas!). Once you remember the fact that these comics were written long before the prequels came into being and long before Lucas threw the EU into disarray, you shouldn't have much problem enjoying those early EU stories. -----signature----- "Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici (By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe)" -- V XBL GT - GhostRider1172
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Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/27/05 4:32am Subject: RE: The Sith destroyed, immortality achieved through compassion, and Dark Empire (Ret-con Week) - Date Edited: 7/27/05 4:35am (1 edits total) Edited By: Starkeiller
	But there has to be an in-universe explanation. That's what I try to provide with my ret-con. -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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