Jedi Council Forums - Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~

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Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/28/05 2:13pm Subject: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~ - Date Edited: 7/28/05 2:54pm (17 edits total) Edited By: Starkeiller
	So... Now with K.o.t.o.R. and the Republic series the Sith of Ziost and Korriban had Darth names and lightsabers? And what are those crystals they are wearing and using in their ships? How can they blow up stars and become ghosts inside their tombs? What's up with these guys? Well, they were created before the prequels, in the Tales of the Jedi series, so it's logical they differ from the Sith we see in the films. It's also logical that there are many seeming contradictions with other E.U. sources and even the films themselves... That's what ret-cons are for! 1.) The Darth names. A few years ago, there was supposed a guy, the heir of the Bane family, whose mommy and daddy named Darth. What a cute name! Darth grew up to be a Sith Lord who killed people for fun. What a shame for so cute a name... Anyway, his Apprentice came from a planet where they had names instead of nicknames, so he dedided to start a tradition where guys would change their name to Darth Add-Your-Nickname-Here in honor of himself and his Apprentice. So the cuttest name in the galaxy became the trademark of the most evil bastards in the galaxy. A few years later, a game came out that introduced us to some of the most evil bastards in the galaxy that carried the Darth name but lived three thousand years before Bane! The rules changed, and now, fortunately, there's neither a Bane family nor parents who name their sons Darth... Now Bane is the heir of a Darth name tradition. How far back does that tradition go? We really don't know... Some theories connect it to Malachor V, others claim it was invented by Revan, e.t.c. e.t.c.. Well, I think it existed for as long as the Sith did. That's about 25.000 years. But what about Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Ulic Quel-Droma and all the Sith who seemingly have no Sith names? Who told us they don't have a Darth name but they're just not using it? Nobody. While Darth Naga Sadow is a really stupid notion, why couldn't Naga Sadow carry the title Darth Whatever? If nobody calles him Darth Whatever, it doesn't necessary mean that his title was not Darth Whatever. So, I think the official title of Sith Lords was Darth Add-Your-Nickname-Here since they were created. Why don't we see them using it then? They can if they choose to, it just happens that the ones we see chose not to. Not all of them though. A guy called Darth Andeddu is dressed like a Pharaoh but is called Darth and carries a lightsaber! He chose to be remembered with his Sith name, not his real one. I'll analyze the lightsaber in the next part of the Ret-Con Special. Why then all the Sith after Bane had to cease to be called what they were called before and adopt a Darth name? That's simple. They were in hiding. They had to make sure nobody would discover them. If M.r.s. Antilles' neigbor became a Sith for example, young Antilles would see him in a black robe and start screaming, "Hey, look mom, that's the sir who used to live next door! But he wears funny clothes, look at him mommy!". The Sith couldn't work that way in a galaxy who hunted them down like outlaws. Thy had to abandon their names for the Darth moniker and wear hoods or tatoo their whole bodies to disguise themselves. That was why in order for someone to become a Sith, he had to forget his real name and become Darth Something. Darth as a title existed loooong before Bane or even Revan and Malak. But it was optional to abandon your real name and when you got cool names like Marka Ragnos and Exar Kun, it's hard to let them be forgotten... Darth Andeddu had a silly-sounding name we must presume... 2.) The lightsabers. Lightsabers existed since the Jedi were first formed. The first page of Tales of the Jedi: The Golden Age of the Sith #0 clearly shows this. As a young Jedi reads about the Great Jedi Schism, we see a clash of ancient lightsabers from 25.000 B.B.Y.. Perhaps they had a "material" blade inside the energy one, perhaps they had any other "primitive" characteristic and they surely were wired to their batteries, but they were lightsabers. Then, two issues or so later, as Marka Ragnos is recounting the formation of the Sith, we see similar scenes once again, but this time they got swords like the ones we have on Earth. That's because the artist is different. In-universe though, that's because swords like the ones we know were a widespread weapon in the ancient Star Wars galaxy as we know from K.o.t.O.R.. In the game, you can wield metal swords and vibroblades as a Jedi. Back when the Jedi were first formed and they had no traditions, it is logical that their arsenal included a wider choise of weapons than the new invention, the lightsaber, since it hadn't yet been incorporated to their tradition. Perhaps some of the sabers are even switched-off blades if you like the theory about ancient lightsabers having a "material" core. But if the first Sith had lightsabers, how can their decendants, 20.000 years later, use only crystal and metal swords and not lightsabers? On top of that, Darth Andeddu, who looks perfectly Ancient-Sith-Empire-y, wields a lightsaber with a red blade whose crystal is acquired by Quinlan Vos during the Clone Wars. How can that be? It's easily solved. We know the technology of the Jedi exiles in the Sith Empire started disappearing in favor of the more primitive ways of the Sith race. So Tulak Hord and Darth Andeddu, who lived in the earlier years of the Empire, had lightsabers, but Marka Ragnos and Naga Sadow didn't, since that technology had disappeared from the Empire. A lot of things can happen in 20.000 years, you know! Even if they did, they chose not to use them, since K.o.t.O.R. states ancient Sith prefered to feel metal cutting through the flesh of their enemies than the feel of cutting through butter you get when choppin' with a lightsaber. 3.) The crystals. What are those crystals the Sith wear in their gaunts and lecklaces and everywhere in general? Remember Splinter of the Mind's Eye and the First Drafts? Kyber, Kiber, Kaiburr crystals! Call them whatever you want, they are crystals who magnify the Force and increase a Force power's strenght a thousandfold. That explains the great glory of the ancient Sith Empire and the extraordinary powers of its Sith rulers! And that Sith flagship that can blow up red giants and summon solar flares! It's full of crystals, but not normal crystals like other ships of the period. Kiber, Kyber, Kaiburr crystals! It's full of them and Naga Sadow and Aleema are seen clearly summoning energy from them to hit stars. In T.o.t.J.: The Sith War, Exar Kun says to Aleema, "A thousand years ago, one of my predecessors, the Dark Lord Naga Sadow, used this ship to flee Republic fighters. Hre is the power to wrench fire from the stars... Let me show you how to use it, Aleema.". And he shows her a mass of big crystals connected with wires. Aleema then remarks, "Yes, I can sense the Sith power vibrating through the walls.". So it's not something technological. It's the Force, the Force that is amplified by the crystals with which the ship is full. She later blows up an entire system using that power by triggering the explosion of a supergiant at the heart of a star cluster, just like Naga Sadow triggered the explosion of the supergiant Primus Goluud a thousand years before. When he did so, and whenever one of these crystals was used in the comics, we saw energy coming out of it, the same one that empowered the metal and crystal swords of the Sith. This signifies that the Force is multiplied in strenght by the crystals, leading to the amazing things we see the Sith of the period doing. They encase their spirits in crystal amulets and crystal holocrons and can only come back as ghosts through them. They are not truly immortal, they are just prisoned to this world through the immense power the crystals give them. Exar Kun had crystals like that with which he managed to do a mind trick to all the members of the Senate and turn the Chancellor into a puppet but they were small and few. After the fall of the Sith Empire, these crystals couldn't be found any more. Exar Kun propably possessed the last of them that were still working. The rest must have lost their power after the death of their masters just like the one Luke took from the Temple of Pomojema lost its power when it was transferred to another planet. These thing seem to be alive but I won't explain my theory about what they are here; it's too complex and... bold. -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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Sn4tcH Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 7/28/05 3:21pm Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~ - Date Edited: 7/28/05 3:23pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sn4tcH
	I like this, but the one thing that sticks out to me the most is the thought that the Kaiburr crystals were in the gauntlets. That makes everything make a lot more sense. The Ancient Sith seem like they could destroy Vader and Palpatine, yet we see their stats, and everyone's pretty equal. So how can a guy who's crushing suns with the force be weaker than Palps? The crystals. Very good. -----signature----- http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000183542&tstart=30 The Batmite76 Batman Continuity Project PM me if you want to help!
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Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/28/05 3:36pm Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~ - Date Edited: 7/28/05 3:37pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Starkeiller
	Thanks a lot. When I read the T.o.t.J. comics, my mind immediately went to the Kaiburr crystal from Splinter of the Mind's Eye. I think it's more than obvious that T.o.t.J. crystals have the same properties... -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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Esplin9466 Registered: Oct '02	Date Posted: 7/28/05 4:26pm Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~
	Weren't lightsabers not invented until 9,900 BBY? -----signature----- Nom Anor WILL return . . . eventually! Recipient of the Golden Ewok™ No-Prize. "Why . . . why did she choose you? What makes you able to defeat me, defeat me here?" "The place is not what matters, it is the man."
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Ackbar_Van_Gungan Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 7/28/05 4:34pm Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~
	Interesting..I'm not familiar enough with KOTOR to know all of the references but I would agree that the crystals had something to do with the tremendous amount of power the TOTJ Sith Weilded. Good job. Take a look at mine if you so desire. -The Rebel Gungan -----signature----- My SFF blog: http://www.yetistomper.blogspot.com/ 1st Post= Golden Ewok™ No Prize! Unfortunate Sacred Slab of the Church of Waru -Curator of the Byss Orbiting Holographic History of Space Flight Museum
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Sn4tcH Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 7/29/05 2:39am Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~
	Esplin9466 posted: Weren't lightsabers not invented until 9,900 BBY? could just be lightsabres as we know them. Maybe these are those "laserswords" crazy old Lucas always talks about... -----signature----- http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000183542&tstart=30 The Batmite76 Batman Continuity Project PM me if you want to help!
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Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/29/05 4:18am Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~ - Date Edited: 7/29/05 4:22am (1 edits total) Edited By: Starkeiller
	Lightsabers existed as long as the Jedi existed. This is shown here, the first page of the T.o.t.J. comics. That's why I made 25.000-year old lightsabers part of my ret-con. -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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Charlii Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 7/29/05 8:45am Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~
	Yeah, true... But I belive that that's only an error by the artist. It has several times been stated that lightsabers were invented ~10.000 BBY. See the TFN-timetales for more info: http://www.theforce.net/timetales/tt1-1/sect1-1-pg2.asp /Charlii
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Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/29/05 10:49am Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~ - Date Edited: 7/29/05 10:52am (2 edits total) Edited By: Starkeiller
	Conjecture from "S.W.: Dark Empire" and "The S.W. Encyclopedia". Information also from "S.W. R.p.G. II: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook". Hmmm... That's pretty vague. We got pictures of 25.000-year old lightsabers. I think it's conjectures that should be ret-conned in favor of visual evidence, don't you agree? -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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Charlii Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 7/29/05 10:58am Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~
	Well, I can't really tell whithout the sources... But one frame showing a clash between ancient-looking powerd swords of some kind (the artist clearly wanted to portray lightsabers, but we don't know what the script said.) does not necesserily override clear dates from a newer source. (I don't have PotJ, so I can't see what it actually says) /Charlii
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Starkeiller Registered: Dec '04	Date Posted: 7/29/05 11:16am Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~ - Date Edited: 7/29/05 11:24am (5 edits total) Edited By: Starkeiller
	But the ancient Sith Lords HAD lightsabers at some point. Darth Andeddu is clearly a Sith Empire Dark Lord and Tulak Hord is stated to have been the greatest lightsaber master in the ancient Sith Empire. The info from P.o.t.J. isn't the date of the invention of the lightsabers and D.E. just has Vima's lightsaber that is supposed to be one of the first ever created. Unfortunately, I don't have the S.W. Encyclopedia, but I'm sure it doesn't state a particular date. -----signature----- "Ston Germano, echeis tin Dynami!" ~Diafimisi gia Germano
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Sauron_18 Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 7/29/05 11:17am Subject: RE: Sith Empire sorted out ~A National Ret-Con Week Special~
	They didn't have lightsabers then, nor blasters for that matter, the image is just that artists conception, and really I prefer the other -----signature----- San Hill is out there........hiding.......watching......
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