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Author	Topic: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
Gladiuus Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 9/19/05 9:32pm Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	Hate to be a pest, but has anyone at all checked out the new boards (linked to in my sig)? I don't mind if there's a general objection to it, but I'd appreciate some feedback...
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MasterControlProgram Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/20/05 12:18am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	Micky E SWTC is fanfic. It is not official. Any fan claim based on SWTC is likewise fanfic. I don't know where you get your biased definition from to claim SWTC is "fan fiction." But it is in keeping with your Crusade. SWTC observes and reports on what is seen in the movies. When the movies are silent on the matter, it derives material from the other canon (scripts, novelizations, radio dramas). Where THOSE sources are silent, SWTC uses the EU. There is no Curtis Saxton created content (in terms of him personally adding content to the GFFA's canon or EU) on SWTC. Therefore, it is not fan fiction. Harry Knowles' online movie reviews are "fan fiction" according to your self-serving definition of the term. Just like ASVS. ASVS fan fiction is clearly marked as fan fiction when it occurs. The debatesthere, using all the canon and EU evidence, is clearly not. TFN debates aren't "fan fiction" either, unless, once again, were using McEwok's self-serving definition of the term. I'm not envious. I'm simply calling out bad arguments for what they are. No, you're dismissing what you personally don't like, and proving yourself to be a hypocrite. Then you project this trait on others. I'd love to dismiss the Jedi Academy trilogy, "Darksaber", "The New Rebellion", "The Crystal Star", and most of the New Jedi Order. But I can't. They're acceptable EU sources. Where they don't conflict with canon, of course. Come to that, what, exactly, is wrong with the corvette - frigate - cruiser - Star Destroyer - Super Star Destroyer system, still canonically defined as the formal Imperial classification? Actually the canonically defined formal Imperial classification for the SSD is Star Dreadnought. (ITW:SWT). You'd know that if you didn't dismiss ITW:SWT, then hypocritically state you are a poster boy for inclusion of everything. No, because they're just your bitches, right? And I mean, people whose chief pleasure in life seems to be trying to verbally rape these fanboy üntermenschen are so much less perverse, aren't they... Ad hominem in place of actual argument. So noted. So, you don't spend an inordinate amount of Saxton bashing here with just about every thread you star nowadays, AND on SW Wiki? No, of course you don't. You're the "nice" guy, while I'm the uh, "verbal rapist." Here's the difference between you and me, pal. I don't couch what I want to say in faux-impartial doublespeak intended to make me look like I'm not attacking someone when in fact I am. That's your forte. I am 100% honest with anyone I speak to. I'm not going to say, "Well, while I'm sure McEwok is a pillar of the community, and I have found a point of two of his that I thought was excellently conceived, though some of his shady definitions of what constitutes fan fiction are similar to what I understand sociopathic modernists engage in when trying to say something bracing while attempting to look like an impartial observer." Just so we understand one another. And, any quotes, please? I've heard this claim made before, but never seen any evidence forthcoming. You know, I've seen you being asked for quotes and evidence, and more often than not, you dodge, dodge, dodge, claiming only a cursory glance at the material you've referenced. It would be great if you could provide evidence when you're asked to pony up. Anyway: Marvel Star Wars # 54 "Starfire Rising" "All aboard knew they hadn't a prayer of success--good as she was, the Falcon was no match for an Imperial Dreadnought--but they had to at least make the attempt. " pg. 43: Secretly constructed in orbit around the remote Forest Moon of Endor, the second Death Star is over 900 kilometers (550 miles) in diameter Oh, good. Thanks. Okay, that's one reference. I'm still not sure whether 160km or 900km is going to win out, S It already has. Poe, any VIP who calls you a friend either has a vile sense of humour, or is a very, very poor judge of character... I pity them. Right...because they don't agree with "Mr Nice Guy McEwok", who's better at padding his insults in doublespeak. Buy some Tarn-X for that halo, pal. Err... yes, presumably because the DS surface is a flat model, just as in ANH. I've never been quite sure whether this is embarrassingly anal, or wilfully capricious... What...McEwok one moment not accepting Richard Edlund's comments because they're "not canon", then pointing out the fact that the DS2's surface was actually flat by referencing behind the scenes movie fx magic?? There's a word for this...let's see...begins with an "H"...rhymes with ocrite.... Its funny how the irrational viewpoint picks one example out of dozens of corroborating pieces of evidence, completely misinterprets it, then attempts to ridicule something they don't understand. What's even funnier is, Saxton's methods for deriving the size of the DS2 matched almost exactly with Righard Edlund's stated scaling, BEFORE Saxton had that quote to reference. Similarly, the 160km DS1 matches almost exactly from the earliest sketch from Ralph McQuarrie (which gives a stated 150km diameter to the DS1) as wells as ILM's Grant McCune's statement of its scale. Yet, there is absolutely zero corroborating evidence for a 120km DS1, or a 160km DS2. Funny, that. The problem with G-canon is quite simple: the bloopers. The problem with you is, you don't accept the G-canon based on movie bloopers, while George Lucas DOES. You prefer EU materials which directly contradict the movie evidence. Which is of course, against the G-canon. Sucks to be you. The rest of us prefer reference works that more closely acknowledges the movies, not poorly researched second generation material. I'm urging an inclusive approach, embracing as much as possible the spirit and the letter of the movies, WEG, novels, and ICS/ItW alike, based on a balanced, rational approach to the evidence, and the possibilities of meaning inherrent in the various "sources". I probably have a knee-jerk reaction against ICS/ItW for the way that badly-thought-out fanboy stuff was allowed to override established canon You mean like the incorrect sizes of the DS1 (120km) DS2 (160km) Executor (8 km) the 10 engine banks on the Executor instead of 13 that directluy contradict the films? Or how about "R5-D4" which is in clear violation of onscreen canon, when Luke Skywalker himself calls it an "R2 unit"? Or how about the redesignation of the Hammerhead alien in the cantina as an "Ithorian", when the "established canon" (in this case the ANH Radio Drama) labeled these aliens as "Meerian Hammerhead"... Where's that outcry? FTeik No, despite your earlier claims to the contrary you are not trying to fit all the evidence together. Because AGAIN you're ignoring those established sources, that make clear, that the Star Destroyers ARE destroyers. Calling those officially sanctioned sources you don't like fan-interpretation doesn't work. Excellent point, FTeik IceHawk-181 Also, never tell Wayne Poe, Michael Wong, or Curtis Saxton they are wrong, it’s a big no-no. Oh please. You make us sound like the fanboy equivalent to the Sopranos! We've all been wrong plenty of times. It took me years to convince Curtis Vader's labored breathing began after Luke outfought him and cut off his hand in ROTJ. Curtis and Mike have corrected my webpages and theories dozens of times, and it continues to this day. GrandAdmiralJello Yes, but it depends on how specific the G-canon is. Otherwise, after all, we'd have to point out the G-canon refers to Executor as a Star Destroyer and that there 20 battleship commanders in Death Squadron. But that's the beauty of the Canon structure. Its self-policing. The movies override everything. There were no 20 "battleship" commanders. One of the "smaller ships" destroyed by an asteroid was NOT a Star Destroyer (refer to the storyboard of the scene). We run into problems when those that don't want to "throw out" anything attempt to cram everything into continuity, like the several versions of the Falcon's deckplans before the SW:ICS; effectively saying the Falcon's interior simply changed over and over and over again like a transformer, instead ofsimply accepting the fact that the previous deckplans were simply wrong. -----signature----- My Youtube Flicks: http://www.youtube.com/user/MrPoe
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/20/05 3:26am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	How do the movies show that the novel's (also G-canon) 20 battleship commanders don't exist? -----signature----- Roma Æterna\|SPQR Imperium Sine Fine "Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque" -Ennius, Annales "Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento;hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos" -Virgil, Aeneid
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 9/20/05 5:30am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	Gladiuus, I once used to multiforum between my various social, business and writing boards until the demands of diversification invested time I didn't have. It's a good idea but I'll have to pass on this. -----signature----- My utilisation of complex locution to ask what's more pathetic, fans who worship their movie actors, or the actors who couldn't give a damn, is more a reflection of my own superincumbent mental actuity than any circumscribed lexicon. Don't you agree?
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Pelranius Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 9/20/05 6:23am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	Going back to the twenty battleship commanders, I assume they're talking about ISD or Tector sized ships? And how should we reconcile that remark that put the Executors at 19 km? -----signature----- Fleet Junkie and Proud! Fics: Destiny's Inferno (TTT/DE AU) And the Skywalker Saga KOTOR Style Updated 7/24/06 see bio for details
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MercenaryAce Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 9/20/05 6:57am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	Oh I'ld love to join, but frankly, I'm on too many already and things are about to get very busy in my life. I may join, time allowing. Hey I know this is a ship thread, but does anyone know which picture of the Freerunner is cannon? There are three: The WEG pic, the rogue squadren version, and the picture from the TCG. While the TCG one is the newest, and would be a better desgin, it doesn't match the description. -----signature----- "I am no man...I am a space station!" Another star wars ships, droids and troops site: http://armiesofstarwars.com/ It does have info found nowhere Move all sig, for great justice
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Sinrebirth Title: EU Senate Chancellor Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 9/20/05 7:08am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	Pelranius posted: Going back to the twenty battleship commanders, I assume they're talking about ISD or Tector sized ships? And how should we reconcile that remark that put the Executors at 19 km? I'd assume so yes. The problem is that they're called battleships, but in the same scene in ESB, we see ISD's on screen. Well, assumedly they're ISD's, has anyone checked? If not, that's one Ex, ten or so ISD's and twenty TSDs deployed to Hoth.....which suits me as a good sized fleet, better than the Endor one, which was underpowered in my opinion. Especially with one TSD, an Ex, a comm ship and thirty or so ISD's against the entire Rebel Fleet.... There isn't much to reconcile about the Ex, really. Daniel-K explained that Executor limitations were due to fuel ages ago elsewhere. However, Fteik has pointed out once or twice that the thousand weapon total is too low - however if the reactor is providing more output, as it's a larger reactor in the ship, the weapons will be suitably powered to provide a punch equivalent to the vessels size, and numerous guns aren't required. And of course, the missiles on the Ex can be bigger, like the torpedoes in Republic Commando or those used in the Bacta War. -----signature----- Sey's Sinre The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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IceHawk-181 Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 9/20/05 7:46am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	If we were to look at the actual model used by the FX staff in ROTJ, Saxton identified some 942 blisters on the vessel’s hull. If even a quarter of these blisters housed Heavy Turbolaser Cannons the Executor would be worth 20 Imperators. If they were all Heavy Turbolaser Cannons the Executor would be worth more than 3 sector fleets worth of Imperators. The actual load out for the Executor is not known unfortunately, however we should be able to assume the blisters are indeed weapon emplacements. Depending on their actually yield, if Saxton’s summations are correct, the Executor should have been able to wipe out most of the Rebel Fleet at Endor on its own. The problem is that the Executor only engaged with its LTL batteries, so we don't know. Also, what are the supposed fuel issues with the Executor? I would assume it has something to do with the Hypermatter Power Generator? -----signature----- Proof is an interesting phenomena; there is seemingly always an abundance of it when it need not be presented.
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/20/05 8:01am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	The point is a ship can only move and fight as long as its fuel-silos provide its reactors with something to annihilate. A SW-ship running on maximum-output would run out of fuel within a single day (one and a half, if we are generous). At least since TLC we know, that some battles can last for thirty hours (the battle for XaFel) or more so ships can't fight with their full strenght, if they have no idea how long a battle will last. A second concern might be the stress caused to the ships systems, if those are running at full power for several hours. -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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Sinrebirth Title: EU Senate Chancellor Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 9/20/05 8:02am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	IceHawk-181 - This is Daniel-K's explanation how I understood it, anyway. Wes can probably help as well. Well, we know the first Star Dreadnaughts hadn't mastered the power problem - Mandators had short-range hyperdrives for one. Now, the Hypermatter Power Generator was an answer to this, but it was on a scale that, while it fitted quiet snugly into a Death Star, couldn't be used on Executor sized ships. So they went with the tried and tested method of simply piling loads of fuel in the Executor. Now, Hypermatter testing on Star Dreadnaught sized ships continued in thw from of Imperial testbed from the BFC books, the EX-F, though they were trying antimatter at the time of the Yevethan uprising, ro something along those lines. That meant that if an Ex went on a long campaign, or wasn't adequately supplied, it didn't perform as well as a 19km behemoth would. Thus the Lusankya at Thyferra not being supplied enough so it was overwhelmed by a few squadrons of fighters and freighters and two ISDs. Thus the logic behind Wedge's withdrawl from Orinda when he faced the Reaper - the Reaper was closer to a home port and well stocked, the Lusankya was on the offensive, and without the Endurance and its fighters was outmatched. Thus the logic of Iron Fist withdrawing rather than fighting when approached - Zsinj used his ship as a mobile command post that it couldn't quite fill, especially with all the modifications Zsinj had running. It follows for all the Ex's that weren't hopelessly outmatched or sabotaged, because obviously the outmatching and sabotage caused the destruction. That should explain it well enough -----signature----- Sey's Sinre The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/20/05 8:25am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	Sinrebirth posted: IceHawk-181 - This is Daniel-K's explanation how I understood it, anyway. Wes can probably help as well. Well, we know the first Star Dreadnaughts hadn't mastered the power problem - Mandators had short-range hyperdrives for one. The short range of the early Mandators hyperdrive was based on a political decision - not an engineering problem. Sinerebirth posted: Now, the Hypermatter Power Generator was an answer to this, but it was on a scale that, while it fitted quiet snugly into a Death Star, couldn't be used on Executor sized ships. Then why do Acclamators and other warships use something called hypermatter as fuel? Sinrebirth posted: So they went with the tried and tested method of simply piling loads of fuel in the Executor. Now, Hypermatter testing on Star Dreadnaught sized ships continued in thw from of Imperial testbed from the BFC books, the EX-F, though they were trying antimatter at the time of the Yevethan uprising, ro something along those lines. The post-DE-galaxy suffered from a lot of destruction. I think the imperials experimenting with antimatter is an attempt to get a substitute for hypermatter - this would also suggest an overall decrease in warship-power to the point, where fighters may become effective against them again and justify NR-designs like Defender and Endurance. Sinrebirth posted: That meant that if an Ex went on a long campaign, or wasn't adequately supplied, it didn't perform as well as a 19km behemoth would. What is true for the Executor would be true for the ISDs and the MonCalamari-Cruisers, so that wouldn't work (until the rebels gambled on "all or nothing"). I also think, that the rebels used some of their weapons the way Munificent-Class Star Frigates blow up 1,000 km wide ice-moons. Sinrebirth posted: Thus the Lusankya at Thyferra not being supplied enough so it was overwhelmed by a few squadrons of fighters and freighters and two ISDs. Plus probabely no weapons on the ventral side, an inexperienced crew and a sh.t-load of capital-ship-torpedos fired by those freighters (80, IIRC) Sinrebirth posted: Thus the logic behind Wedge's withdrawl from Orinda when he faced the Reaper - the Reaper was closer to a home port and well stocked, the Lusankya was on the offensive, and without the Endurance and its fighters was outmatched. Questionable, given the fighter-centration of the NR. It is more likely, that Wedge as a fighter-jokey thought "My fighters are gone. We're doomed." -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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Sinrebirth Title: EU Senate Chancellor Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 9/20/05 8:35am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	"The short range of the early Mandators hyperdrive was based on a political decision - not an engineering problem." Proof, please? Because if you're following the logic that the Mandators were commissioned for defence only, Kuat had yards and so forth throughout the galaxy - look at Rothana to Kuat, for example. "Then why do Acclamators and other warships use something called hypermatter as fuel?" Then why did they struggle with the Death Star? Was not the fuel hypermatter for those ships, but the Death Star generating fuel with an exponential energy reaction??? "The post-DE-galaxy suffered from a lot of destruction. I think the imperials experimenting with antimatter is an attempt to get a substitute for hypermatter - this would also suggest an overall decrease in warship-power to the point, where fighters may become effective against them again and justify NR-designs like Defender and Endurance" Nice theory, but the antimatter experiments were taking place Pre-Endor, were they not? "What is true for the Executor would be true for the ISDs and the MonCalamari-Cruisers, so that wouldn't work (until the rebels gambled on "all or nothing"). I also think, that the rebels used some of their weapons the way Munificent-Class Star Frigates blow up 1,000 km wide ice-moons." Its considerably easier to stockpile fuel for kilometer long ships than for 19km behemoths, methinks. Its easier as a galactic whole for the Empire, but post-Endor such galactic coordination is lost till somewhat post the fall of Pelly's Empire. "Questionable, given the fighter-centration of the NR. It is more likely, that Wedge as a fighter-jockey thought "My fighters are gone. We're doomed." " Illogical. 144-odd NR fighters .versus. 144-odd Imperial fighters. We all know how this turns out. In one-on-one battles, NR wins, by virtue of shielded fighters. -----signature----- Sey's Sinre The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/20/05 9:28am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
	Sinrebirth posted: "The short range of the early Mandators hyperdrive was based on a political decision - not an engineering problem." Proof, please? Because if you're following the logic that the Mandators were commissioned for defence only, Kuat had yards and so forth throughout the galaxy - look at Rothana to Kuat, for example. I could as well ask you to provide proof, that the Mandators had technological problems, since the Acclamator proves, that no such problem exists. However the AOTC:ICS says this in its entry of the Acclamator: "The RETURN of the truly transgalactic warships and armies is a desastrous development." and in its entry about the Jedi-starfighter: "Tarifs and embargoes prevent direct competition between KDY, SienerFleetSystems ... and other shipbuilders." Sinrebirth posted: "Then why do Acclamators and other warships use something called hypermatter as fuel?" Then why did they struggle with the Death Star? Who struggled with the DeathStar and how? Sinrebirth posted: Was not the fuel hypermatter for those ships, but the Death Star generating fuel with an exponential energy reaction??? Both use hypermatter as far as i know. However considering, that the DS had no fueltanks i think the possibility exists, that it got its fuel from onboard-facilities by tapping the energies of a higher dimension OR hypermatter refers to a vast variety of different energy-sources. Contrary to Executors and ISDs the DeathStar is large enough to contain a black-hole or a neutron-star. Sinrebirth posted: "The post-DE-galaxy suffered from a lot of destruction. I think the imperials experimenting with antimatter is an attempt to get a substitute for hypermatter - this would also suggest an overall decrease in warship-power to the point, where fighters may become effective against them again and justify NR-designs like Defender and Endurance" Nice theory, but the antimatter experiments were taking place Pre-Endor, were they not? Yes and no. We know the the EX-F was an experimental testbed, but we don't know if those experiments involved antimatter, which wouldn't make sense at that point of time since hypermatter is a much more powerful and obviously much more stable energy-source. So the antimatter could have been provided by Pellaeon's ImperialRemnant or perhaps even the Yevetha, since such a xenophobic culture wouldn't participate in the technological developments of the mainstream society of the galaxy and follow its own technological path until forced to do so by imperial occupation. Sinrebirth posted: Its considerably easier to stockpile fuel for kilometer long ships than for 19km behemoths, methinks. Its easier as a galactic whole for the Empire, but post-Endor such galactic coordination is lost till somewhat post the fall of Pelly's Empire. At the height of the GalacticEmpire there would be no difference. As for the following years, i already adressed that and i'm glad i'm not the only one, who thinks this way. Sinrebirth posted: "Questionable, given the fighter-centration of the NR. It is more likely, that Wedge as a fighter-jockey thought "My fighters are gone. We're doomed." " Illogical. 144-odd NR fighters .versus. 144-odd Imperial fighters. We all know how this turns out. In one-on-one battles, NR wins, by virtue of shielded fighters. Correct. So there should have been no reason for Wedge to run, but he did exactly that. And the NR-written EssentialChronology tells us because of the loss of the Endurance and its fighters. -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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Sinrebirth Title: EU Senate Chancellor Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 9/20/05 9:43am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II - Date Edited: 9/20/05 9:46am (1 edits total) Edited By: Sinrebirth
	"I could as well ask you to provide proof, that the Mandators had technological problems, since the Acclamator proves, that no such problem exists. However the AOTC:ICS says this in its entry of the Acclamator: "The RETURN of the truly transgalactic warships and armies is a desastrous development." and in its entry about the Jedi-starfighter: "Tarifs and embargoes prevent direct competition between KDY, SienerFleetSystems ... and other shipbuilders." " I concede that point then. The Mandator problem was not a technological one. "Who struggled with the DeathStar and how?" Sienar himself pointed out in Rogue Planet that there would have to be several hypermatter advances made before the Death Star was feasible. I always thought as the DS reactor as some sorta perpetual reaction, once started would never stop, somewhat, till destroyed. Think Spiderman 2, if that helps. But your other points are sound, whether yes or no. Noticably, it adds to the concept that few Star Dreadnoughts were built after Endor, thus there new importance as Palpy took them to Byss..... "Correct. So there should have been no reason for Wedge to run, but he did exactly that. And the NR-written EssentialChronology tells us because of the loss of the Endurance and its fighters" So the fighters were important, which adds to my theory that the Lucy wasn't upto full-combat strength against Reaper. -----signature----- Sey's Sinre The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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Thrawn McEwok Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 9/20/05 11:21am Subject: RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II - Date Edited: 9/20/05 11:30am (1 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
	Jello: By 'we,' I was referring to our friendly opposition here who prefers star dreadnought. Brain fart? My Ewok intellect fritzed a bit, I think... But anyway--yeah, it's tricky because some sources have said that Isard destroyed the entire Ruling Circle, which is odd. That's obviously not the case, as the remnants of the appear later on. Well, we know Carvin was in Lusankya... but I know you want 'em to be free and independent... so we can wait eagerly and see what Dan Wallace says the NEC? But as for the seats--I'm sure the seats weren't specially constructed at that instant. After all, Pestage used one of the Emperor's old throne rooms--who says that the Tribunal wasn't using a meeting place of the former Ruling Council? It doesn't indicate that there were more than three in the Tribunal. True, but as Rogue_Follower says below, the seats are all filled. The first frame shows a shot over the shoulders of a man in a hat; to his right, a man whose hand only is visible; on the far right of the arc is a man in purple with a gold decoration below his throat, with on his left, someone who may be in Imperial uniform. It's possible that there's a gap between Imperial uniform and the man whose hand is visible, and moreover, Isard is facing to the left of the foreground figure; that, and the gap in the ring of seats behind her, suggests all these people could be on one half of the circle. Thus, we have: R <- man in purple; man in uniform; [possible gap]; man with hands; man with hat; [gap] -> L The second shot shows Carvin, and the third shot shows that Carvin is wearing gloves (so he's not the uniformed man second from the right) and a bald man is on his left. Thus we have R <- [gap]; Carvin; bald man; [possible gap] -> L The next shot shows Isard turning well to her right to face the bald man, suggesting that both Carvin and the bald man are on the left of the man in the hat. We thus have R <- man in purple; man in uniform; [possible gap]; man with hands; man with hat; [possible gap]; Carvin; bald man; [possible gap] -> L The final shot, looking through the gap in the ring of seats, shows three seats to Isard's right, two to her left. The position of the gap, and the angle at which Isard is standing, shows that the centre of the ring is either between the three on the right and the two on her left, or centred to the man immediately to her left; but additional seats are possible on both ends of the arc. It's possible from where the speech-bubbles stand that Carvin is second from Isard's right (ie second from left) among the people seen. The minimum number of people present is thus: R <- purple with medallion; gloveless man in uniform; man whose hand is seen; man in hat; Carvin; bald man -> L There are possible gaps for extra people between the gloveless man and the man who's hand is seen; between the man in the hat and Carvin; and between the bald man and the left end of the row. If we place any stress on where the centre of the row is suggested to be by the angle of Isard and the gap in the ring (to the left of the man in the hat in the first shot, to the right of the man on Carvin's right in the final one), we would probably infer a group of at least seven, and perhaps even nine; but six is the minimum. The only question is, who are these people? Neither Challer nor Plumba is immediately identifiable, nor do any of them wear the distinctive robes worn by the Cabal members in both In the Empire's Service and Masquerade... but Challer and Plumba both change clothes more than once in the course of the issues in which they appear, and it's possible that Challer is a very differently-drawn version of the goatee'd and headpiece-wearing figure central among the Cabal... Isard opens with "I very much appreciate your attendance here", showing that she has summoned them; but Carvin later observes: "If Pestage is a traitor, then we are the state", suggesting that power devolves to them if Pestage is declared a traitor - that, to me, suggests the Ruling Council. Later in the same issue, Cracken tells the Alliance Council that "a tribunal headed by General Paltr Carvin has put itself in charge of the Empire"; and in the next issue, we see Carvin, Challer and Plumba alone in the same setting; that doesn't, of course, mean that the group has been purged already - merely that Carvin has been prepared to take power, backed by Challer and Plumba. Ultimately, this excursus tells us very little. We see a group of between six and about nine men, gathered by Isard in an atmospheric meeting-chamber; these men may or may not be the Ruling Council, or a part thereof. One of them, General Carvin, then takes power at the head of a Tribunal of three men, meeting in the same place with rearranged seating. This may be a rump, a faction, or simply a junta thrown together by him as part of a personal bid for power: the other tribunes may or may not have been members of the group convened by Isard. The rest of the group gathered by Isard clearly did not successfully oppose Carvin, but their fate is unknown. That make sense? FoM: Edited: That wasnt supposed to be posted... PMs for the curious? EJ: The isds reactor is spherical and considered a solar ionization reactor, 'of that type' probably just refers to the specific design and not the overall technology. Since the hoth/procurator/praetor (whichever) reactor was cylindrical it isn't to much of a stretch to think that a cylindrical reactor is more space efficient in a proportionally narrow hulled ship like the SSD Hmm. As a retconn, I'll buy that. It's slightly forced, but it just about works. if its revaluation (IE CSA to IMP cred) I want the exchange rates :-p Hmm? Well, what are the figures, and their contexts? The IH arrived with the rest of the seppie fleet afaik, and the space battle was going on for hours before open circle arrived (so the movie is the last 20 minutes of a day long battle) The IH was raked by a venstar before losing some repulsors and then boxed into a low orbit by the carracks and dreadnaughts, we don't really know how much damage it recieved in the time it took grevious to get to low orbit, the shields to fail, for him to steal the chancellor and fight the jedi and then get back on board and wait for open circle to arrive, convievably in the battle the IH was getting shot at a lot since I beleive only one of its sister ships was there to draw fire (anakin and obiwan knew instantly which ship design was grevious's, this was probably communicated quite readly to the entire republic forces) granted we don't know if the clone troopers had a preprogrammed reason to not critically damage the ship until palps got his dog and pony show done. Could go either way - I'll check the novellization to see how they describe her status; I guess the point is that against Grievous' 1km-long flagship, a 600m Dreadnaught and a screen of Carracks aren't actually so small - especially if, as I suspect, the Dreadnaught is proportionally bulkier... in the essential chronology the dreadnaught is shown with its gun blisters open, if the barrel size is any indication than the dreads heavy double TLs are much weaker than the venstars main guns (the venstars guns being probably a class weaker than the ISD I's main guns) Even if relative barrel-size is a valid inference (and even if the Nar Shadd ships haven't been refitted!!), is there any evidence that the midships 'blister' batteries are the main guns (five each mounted on the "front" and "rear" facings according to the Databank) rather than the secondary lasers (facing "port" and "starboard" according to the Databank)? The Databank also says: The Dreadnaught is plagued by a number of design flaws that prevented it from becoming a preeminent ship of the line. Inefficient power generators resulted in slow sublight and hyperdrive performance, weak shielding, reduced firepower and frequent surges within the computer systems. Does that mean that technical problems, rather than size or armament, were the problem...? if you want to go by RPG ratings just for fun a dreads guns are 7Ds and a venstars are officially 8ds (though strangely enough they are statted like they are a 5 gun battery (8d10x5), so individually they are more like 10D's) Umm... how do these work out? I'm afraid that I have no idea how RPG stats work (though if each "D" is one unit of power, I'm surprised that WEG give a Dreadnaught or a Carrack per-shot heavier than an ISD-I's heaviest guns)... interesting to note the provie has 102 launchers with 16 torps each, each of those equivalent to a 4d TL battery, thats a lot of ouch even for a ship that has been horribly castrated. "Provie"? S_C: The Republic pre-CW was seriously defanged. Its Judicial Department's largest heavy hitter was the ancient Dreadnaught-class (Cloak of Deception). Oh? Quote? The bigger ships were found in local fleets, but where short-range; long-range big mamma ships were not to be again seen (publicly) until the Military Creation Act 22 BBY, at which time they started coming out everywhere in a rush. Prior to the demilitarization of the Republic, we know they had empployed very large warships, such as the Invincible-class. During the 1000-year peace between Ruusan and Geonosis, the Republic had no true military, only the Judicial Department, the main purpose of which seems to have been battling pirate groups (the Stark Combine being one of the better organized ones), which seldom could boast anything comparable to a Dreadnaught. Dreadnaughts in the EU are shown battling pirates. Dreadnaughts may have served as line vessels at one time in small-scale wars, such as with the Bithhaevrians, but surely these "third-galaxy ncountries" would not have wielded anything too threatening. Hmm. We simply don't know what bigger threats they might face, or might potentially face. And dreadnaughts are also shown fighting in the front line of a fleet action at Bilbringi. But, as I've said before - line up a squadron of Dreadnaughts behind locked shields, and even an ISD-I is matched for firepower. I assume that Rendilli Dreadnaughts, and the Mando Dreadnaughts that inspired them, could pose much the same problem for bigger dreadnaught designs... The local sector fleets protected their regional autonomy with ships which could have taken on Dreadnaughts easily, but couldn't have reached beyond their sectors, thus not threatening their neighbors. The Lucrehulks, modified, were still ill-equipped for battle and despite their size could not have opposed Dreadnaughts for long. I'd agree with that, in outline; except that I'm sceptical about whether the big ships would (a.) have the speed/manoeuvrability to bring dreadnaughts to battle, slow as they are compared to carracks, etc.; or (b.) actually have a cost, manpower, armour or firepower advantage against massed dreadnaughts... The slow speed and cheap unit-cost make more sense, IMHO, if you see them in that context... sure, it's a retconn (of a retconn!) but it works! Naboo's undermilitarization was crucial to the success of the Trade Federation--Lucrehulks would never have stood up to the Mandators and similar ships in Core sectors. The small/longrange federal ships and large/shortrange local ships provided a balance of power beteen nation and state. One major objective of the Clone Wars was to dispense of the local fleets which were key to the autonomy of the Republic's members and consolidate a strong federal military, combining both firepower and long-range abilities in the Imperial hands while practically eliminating local forces. This was achieved by gradual legislative steps within the loyalist secots. Also, the military clashes of CIS and loyalist sector forces left them so broken on both sides that the Empire, when it arose, had little opposition. Is there much direct proof of this? It makes sense... but there are other possible options... IH181: My debating haunts are not TFN actually; I am relatively new to these boards thanks to their Episode III coverage. Spacebattles.com was my happy home for some 4 years and 1,800+ posts until school and general life got in the way. I think I started debating around 99 or 00, not sure which. nods Pleased to meet you. I was never drawn to spacebattles, though I can't say there was much of a conscious reason. Mainly TF.N, and before that, RASSM. Actually you do dismiss the C-Level Canon, which does not fit to G-Level explanations. For instance, the Empire was able to construct a 900km station to some 60% in relatively little time, a few years on the outside. If it had the resources to construct this station, after having already suffered the loss of a 120km version, we know as logical deduction that there are resources capable of constructing the Death Star in the Empire’s economy. No; we don't know that the DS2 was built in "relatively little time", merely that the Empire had "begun construction" before RotJ began; and we don't know that the images are accurate to be sure of the 900km diameter. If the EU says that the DS2 was actually built over a span of decades, and that it was 160km diameter, we use the wiggle-room ambiguity in the G-canon to preserve consistency. IMHO, anyway. A couple of further thoughts: The RotJ crawl calls DS2 the "ultimate weapon", a term used by Poggle in AotC, as disntinct from the RotS/ANH "great weapon"... The DS2 superlaser was operative prior to Shira Brie's "death", since she was part of the Alliance SpecForce team sent to stop it blowing up D'rinba IV... The fact that such a massive project can be completed in complete secret means the resources Palpatine appropriated for the Death Star II project must not have been traceable, or at least not easily traceable. Had the DSII construction been enough to bankrupt the Empire it would be next to impossible to hide that from the Rebellion’s extensive spy network. Assumes a lot about Rebel spy networks. Also, as Isard's Revenge reminds us, you can create spurious data-trails and superweapon projects relatively easily. You want to hide a Death Star project? You create a thousand 'front-end' projects. The trick is proving that the information is reliable... We know, as Canonical Fact, the Empire had the resources to construct a 900km station in complete secret. Therefore, Deductively, we understand that a vessel orders of magnitudes smaller than the DSII could have been easily built in secret, without straining the economy. Thus my statement that, according to G-Level Canon and basic logical deduction, the Executor did not bankrupt the Empire is correct. If the Executor had bankrupted the Empire, a 900km Station would not have been possible. However, resources were plentiful enough to build the DSII in secret, ergo the Executor should have been easy to construct. I'm not quite sure what you're pushing at here. FTeik was the person who brought up Darksaber, with a strained reading of the "worth twenty Star Destroyers" remark. As I said, Pellaeon's remark is probably hyperbole (though the Ex could have cost a lot - R&D, new shipyards, a whole class, a lot of complicated components... the DS is simply size: big, slow, largely straightforward, and reusing things like ImpStar power-core designs). The real topic IMHO is whether the DS2 was built in a few months, or whether we could see it as a decades-long project, largely self-supporting from in-system resources. Oh, if only Darksaber was indeed a faked NR-propaganda piece…you really shouldn’t tease people like that…. it’s not fair… Why not? It's another way of looking at SW, and one I like rather a lot - run proper source-crit. analysis on all the evidence... especially now that the movies seem to be largely 'shot' by Artoo... We can scale the Star Wars Universe, especially now that the DVDs eliminate much of the old problems with resolution and the like. Of course everything is within a certain margin of error due to depth and angle issues, however the error is not large enough to seriously call results into question. No, we can scale the (generally superb) FX shots accurately on internal evidence; but the disjunction between sets, FX and mattes remains serious. When I say generally understood, I mean that the majority of debaters I have encountered over the last five years realize FX departments make mistakes, and don’t automatically assume there is a 500 meter Neb-B out there because some Error accidentally superimposed a Corellian Corvette in the wrong spot during ROTJ. There's a 500m Neb-B? Yes, FX departments make mistakes; but FX department errors (indeed, all internal inconsistencies) undermine the credibility of the basic assumptions about the movies made in some circles: if they contain errors, they cannot be the accurate window on the GFFA that you are assuming they are. Reevaluate your basic assumptions! Then start over! It does not matter whether people like the idea of a 160km Death Star II. The DSII has never been 160km; it has always been 900km in Diameter. Watch ROTJ, the DSII is always the same size when compared to Endor, and I doubt the forest moon has changed diameter recently. It simply took the Canon a while to correct an initial mistake, as they are now trying to do with Executor. As I said above - no reason to assume visual accuracy in the movies. Also, how do we know the relative distance-from-camera of DS2 and Endor in any given shot? If the EU repeats one precise, absolute figure, and the movies show something that seems to imply a different figure, why not preserve overall continuity and consistency by assuming that the movies are creating an impressionistic view that communicates how it feels to see the thing, rather than something that can be scaled accuracy? For what it's worth, the RotS novellization describes the amazing view of the Battle of Coruscant from the General's Quarters in RotS as something similar - a computer-edited viewscreen view, transforming battles fought over orbital distances to close-range duels... That is the problem with the current Star Wars Universe. The Canon is attempting to correct decades old mistakes, which have perpetuated themselves throughout the literature. It only takes one Source Book to mistakenly identify the Executor as 5 miles long based on a wanting interpretation of an old quote, and boom, we have dozens of books citing the same, consistent, and incorrect numbers. Personally, as I suspect you'll have gathered by now, I see this "correction" as creating more problems than it solves. It's been fuelled by a self-contained group of fans out of places like ASVS and spacebattles, it's creating continuity disjunctures, it's sometimes based on bad logic or misrepresentations of sources, and it involves fundamental assumptions about movie accuracy that are themselves shown to be fatally flawed by the actual (and often excellent) scaling analysis performed by these fans themselves. If the Falcon's interior doesn't fit its interior, and the Tyderium keeps changing size, perhaps you need to go away and rethink your understanding of what the movie visuals "mean". That's my take on it, anyway. The Imperial Star Destroyer has always been 1.6 km long. The Executor has always been 11 times longer than an ISD. Endor has always enjoyed roughly natural gravity, dictating a specific range for planetary diameter. The DSII has always been the same size when scaled against this diameter. The ISD Tower Globes have always been 40 meters in diameter. The Millennium Falcon has always been perhaps a little longer than those globes, 40-50 meters. None of the G-Level Canon here has ever been changed. The inside of the Millennium Falcon has always not fitted the outside. The Tyderium has always changed size between the back of the hangar and launching, and between reentry and landing. The Executor's tower has always lacked the stacked horizontal plates on the base in close shots; and, in fact, been different in all other observable surface details. The Imperial officers' badges have always been wrong in RotJ. There has always been a 500m Nebby-B in RotJ (thanks for that one, btw!). The ESB:SE additions have added what looks suspiciously like an ImpStar hangar bay aboard the Ex, both illogical and almost certainly absent from the studio model. None of the G-level visuals can be relied on to be visually accurate. (BTW, ISD main cannons are calc`d somewhere in the high gigaton or low teraton range while their “light Turbolasers” are calc`d in the megaton range based on the infamous ESB asteroid. Dreadnoughts are, insofar as I am aware, not capable of an independent BDZ, and therefore lack the magnitude of offensive firepower Star Destroyers from the Vic, to the Venstar, and the ISD showcase.) Hmm? As I've said, I'm not convinced that TNT-equivalency is the right way to go about this (though I know that such figures are used in ICS)... And, similarly, I'm going to stay out of the way of all the contradictions and confusion on power, except to note that just because an Acclamator has a decent hyperdrive doesn't mean that a Mandy's problem is purely one of legality; and to ask this one thing: given the everyday manipulation of spacetime and gravity in the GFFA, is raw power alone really all there is to it when it comes to weaponry, speed, and such-like things? Gladiuus: I'm meaning to take a look, yeah... MCP: Like FTeik; later, too. - The Imperial Ewok -----signature----- A/T = OTP "To write one Solo twin as an angstbunny, Master Skywalker, might be considered unfortunate. To write BOTH that way looks like carelessness."
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