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Topic:
Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
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IceHawk-181
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 9:16am
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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“demonstrable unreliability of the movie in this context”
If you refuse to debate logically on the subject you immediately invalidate your own arguments.
We have already covered the Logical Fallacy you commit every time you make the entirely baseless claim that the visual scaling within the movies cannot be reliable.
You commit the same Fallacy ad nauseam and hope that compounding two fallacies will somehow deride the logical arguments presented against your premise.
Isolated FX Errors do not somehow dismantle LFL Policy.
“The film is unreliable as a literal record. Repeatedly. That's a start-point, not a conclusion.”
Nonsensical and Utterly Wrong, as Lucas Canon Policy has already established.
They are the benchmark upon which all work within Star Wars is measured.
They are the highest order of Canon Truism in existence.
The movies are the only truly reliable literal record of George Lucas’s Star Wars Universe.
That is not my opinion, that is LFL Policy.
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Proof is an interesting phenomena; there is seemingly always an abundance of it when it need not be presented.
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Dark_Guardian
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 10:02am
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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GAJ posted:
The movie scaling provides a range of lengths, from 11x to 12x the ISD. It's difficult to be more precise than that--as SWTC indicates.
Ah, so the movie are a little inaccurate concerning the lenght of the Ex, too? 
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 10:13am
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
- Date Edited:
9/23/05 10:13am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
GrandAdmiralJello
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No. That's like saying that an ostritch is inaccurate if we can't measure its neck. 
The scale means that the means used to measure it can give an approximate length within certain limits. SWTC is quite accurate in this specific regard, if possibly imprecise. But again, grammar and logic dictates that the imprecision is on the part of the one during the measuring, not the thing being measured. Watch those active verbs. 
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Vates Ιυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
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Thrawn McEwok
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 10:39am
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
- Date Edited:
9/23/05 10:43am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Thrawn McEwok
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FTeik: I'm not really sure what to say. Goodbye. And, apologies for every time I've ever crossed the line in anger or irritation. 
- why the EU should take precedence over the films,
It shouldn't. It doesn't.
But, within the overall framework of movies + EU = continuity, precise EU information can be used to refine the range of possible interpretation that the movies allow.
- how they can have precedence over the films, if LFL tells us the opposite,
They don't. In continuity terms, the EU merely refines the inherent ambiguities of the movies.
- how the EU is more consistent, if it gives us lenghts for the Executor that vary from 8kilometers to 12.8kilometers to 19kilometers,
It's not an "EU" vs. "movies" issue. It's a question of whether you should prefer a set of precise figures, widely repeated in what appear to be official sources produced by multiple authors, or the inconsistent results of extrapolation from a work of art, however much that work of art might in many other ways be superior.
- why the films are only a literal, but not a visual window into the SW-universe.
Repeated inconsistencies?
Official quotes would be nice.
I'll see if I can dig up that quote about the need to preserve consistency. That should cover most of it.
IH: We have already covered the Logical Fallacy you commit every time you make the entirely baseless claim that the visual scaling within the movies cannot be reliable.
No, I don't. I make the entirely sensible and true claim that in many cases, the visual scaling within the movies can be shown not to be reliable. That renders all movie-based visual scaling suspect, because the context of the movies is one where images that produce inaccurate scaling figures are entirely acceptable.
As D_G just pointed out, I should really start looking at the margin of error in depictions of the Ex, as well... 
The movies are the only truly reliable literal record of George Lucas’s Star Wars Universe.
Kindly show where any LFL policy statement refers to literal, visual accuracy?
First: they are not "accurate" in this sense. We can show that on numerous counts.
Second: canon policy is first and foremost a framework asking us to imagine that the SW saga is a "true story".
Third: I know of no LFL comment on the meaning of either the inaccuracies, or canon policy itself, within that framework.
If such comments exist, I'm more than happy to consider them.
D_G: Ah, so the movie are a little inaccurate concerning the lenght of the Ex, too?
 Good point! See, I miss things like that...  
Jello: careful, mate, you're starting to sound like Excellence...
And, do grammar and logic reflect reality? Or are they just tools themselves? 
- The Imperial Ewok
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A/T = OTP  "To write one Solo twin as an angstbunny, Master Skywalker, might be considered unfortunate. To write BOTH that way looks like carelessness."
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 12:28pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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Sound like Excellence? And here I thought that my locutions were crisp and clear-cut. I'm certainly not as circumlocuitous as he is, am I?
Or if you're talking about the grammar, then I've been doing this sort of thing since before Excellence was ever born...err... registered.
As for language itself: well, without language, we'd have no means of describing the world we exist in and all thinking would be impossible. Language is most assuredly a tool, but it's absolutely essential.
Saying language doesn't reflect reality is like saying that your eyeballs don't count because they use a reflection on the retina instead of picturing reality.
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SPQR
Vates Ιυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
Tu regere imperio populos,Romanæ,memento;hæ tibi erunt artes;
pascisque imponere morem,parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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AdmiralNick22
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 1:18pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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FTeik:
Thank you for being the first to stop this back and forth battle. I know that I am not alone in saying that we appreciate your efforts to stop this long series of back and forth posts.
Perhaps now would be a good time for us to change topics? Does anyone have somethign they have been wanting to discuss? I for one will have several things to talk about after The Unseen Queen, but that is all I can say about that...  
--Adm. Nick
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Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope 
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FTeik
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 1:24pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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Thrawn McEwok posted:
But, within the overall framework of movies + EU = continuity, precise EU information can be used to refine the range of possible interpretation that the movies allow.
What please, is precise about given lenghts for the same object varying from five miles to eight miles to nineteen kilometers.
ThrawnMcEwok posted:
- how they can have precedence over the films, if LFL tells us the opposite,
They don't. In continuity terms, the EU merely refines the inherent ambiguities of the movies.
And in terms of the size of the Executor the majority of the EU is at least six kilometers off.
ThrawnMcEwok posted:
It's not an "EU" vs. "movies" issue. It's a question of whether you should prefer a set of precise figures, widely repeated in what appear to be official sources produced by multiple authors, or the inconsistent results of extrapolation from a work of art, however much that work of art might in many other ways be superior.
LFL answered that question for us: The "work of art" has priority. How precise the EU-figures are i already covered.
You have still failed to prove, why it should be otherwise.
ThrawnMcEwok posted:
- why the films are only a literal, but not a visual window into the SW-universe.
Repeated inconsistencies?
Inconsistencies smaller than being three or six miles off in regards to Executors lenght as is the case with the EU.
Sorry, but you offer us to pick from two kinds of inconsistent soruces. Why should we prefer the one, if LFL tells us to take the other?
ThrawnMcEwok posted:
Official quotes would be nice.
I'll see if I can dig up that quote about the need to preserve consistency. That should cover most of it.
But not that the EU is secondary to the movies.
ThrawnMcEwok posted:
IH: We have already covered the Logical Fallacy you commit every time you make the entirely baseless claim that the visual scaling within the movies cannot be reliable.
No, I don't. I make the entirely sensible and true claim that in many cases, the visual scaling within the movies can be shown not to be reliable. That renders all movie-based visual scaling suspect, because the context of the movies is one where images that produce inaccurate scaling figures are entirely acceptable.
See above: The EU is inconsistent, too. So according to your logic its claims are suspect.
Prove, why this shouldn't be the case.
ThrawnMcEwok posted:
First: they are not "accurate" in this sense. We can show that on numerous counts.
Nobody claimed, that they are perfectly accurate. According to LFL they are the most accurate. I already said this three posts ago, but obviously you still don't get it.
ThrawnMcEwok posted:
Second: canon policy is first and foremost a framework asking us to imagine that the SW saga is a "true story".
And it tells us how to value sources: movies are the most accurate, the EU follows.
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My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 1:27pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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Nick: Have you been reading spoilers or something? It's not out yet.
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SPQR
Vates Ιυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
Tu regere imperio populos,Romanæ,memento;hæ tibi erunt artes;
pascisque imponere morem,parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Gladiuus
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 1:28pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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Well, there's apparently a new Imperial capship in Battlefront II...
http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sp32200509182301339fx.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/1016/impfrigate29ks.png
Credit goes to ntstlkr at SDN for the screencaps, which come from the beta.
Looks almost like the Vengeance's little brother. And for whatever reason, it's called a Victory II Frigate.
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Dark_Guardian
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 1:46pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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Jello: I'm sorry. When I posted this, I was in a hurry and English is not my native language. Please forgive me.
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Rogue_Follower
Title: Manager: Literature
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 2:21pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
- Date Edited:
9/23/05 2:24pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rogue_Follower
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The name is odd, because it doesn't look anything like a VSD. It could change, though, since the screen is from the beta. The Vengeance analogy is a good one, I think. I really wish that ship had been in XWA. 
And its at Endor... Communication ship? Maybe not, since its not all that big.
So, what's that ship below it in the 2nd shot?
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
-Games
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 2:31pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
- Date Edited:
9/23/05 2:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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That new ship reminds me a little of the Stormcommando craft in Rebel Strike- though it's obviously larger.
BTW- as far as thread title voting goes, with 8 votes recieved, we have one with a vote count of 4, and the other two options at two a piece. Unless anyone who hasn't voted wishes to to so by tonight, I'll call the winner then.
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Currently Reading: Death Star
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Rogue_Follower
Title: Manager: Literature
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 2:33pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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The escort cruiser?
Hmmm, there were Storm Commandos at Endor...
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AdmiralNick22
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 2:52pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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Jello:
Have you been reading spoilers or something? It's not out yet.
Many Bothans died to bring me this information... 
All I will say is that I have not read the book, nor do I have an early copy. But I did obtain some great information...
--Adm. Nick
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Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/05 2:57pm
Subject:
RE: Fleet Junkie-class thread Mark II
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Ah. That's exciting. I don't want to know, of course, but it does mean that there are good things coming in TUQ.
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Vates Ιυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
Tu regere imperio populos,Romanæ,memento;hæ tibi erunt artes;
pascisque imponere morem,parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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