Author Topic: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
blackmyron  2524 posts
Registered: Oct '05
Date Posted: 3/6 5:50pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
Because that wasn't what happened? I'm not sure what you're going for here - this isn't a hypothetical situation, it's historical record.

 

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TIEDefenderPilot  662 posts
Registered: Oct '03
19348_TIE Defender
Date Posted: 3/6 6:34pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
anakinskysolo posted:
blackmyron posted:
Wedge stated that droids were "better at precision firing", and Kueller had the schematics of the Mon Cal ships - that's why they were a bigger threat than normal.


Mmmm... I still don't buy it. Come on, they are 2 MC90s, an MC80 and several support ships against three old VSD IIs... And those droid brains were stupid... It still is logically an easy victory for the NR.


Logically Endor should have been a Imperial victory with the Rebels routed, massacred, and then the survivors quartered. (:

 

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anakinskysolo 
Registered: Feb '08
Date Posted: 3/6 7:16pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
TIEDefenderPilot posted:
anakinskysolo posted:
blackmyron posted:
Wedge stated that droids were "better at precision firing", and Kueller had the schematics of the Mon Cal ships - that's why they were a bigger threat than normal.


Mmmm... I still don't buy it. Come on, they are 2 MC90s, an MC80 and several support ships against three old VSD IIs... And those droid brains were stupid... It still is logically an easy victory for the NR.


Logically Endor should have been a Imperial victory with the Rebels routed, massacred, and then the survivors quartered. (:


Endor was different. The Emperor wanted the Rebels to be destroyed by the Death Star. If he hadn't insisted on that, the Imperials would have won, and if his troops weren't controlled by him, the commanders wouldn't have felt the blow of the Emperor dying do hardly.

And my point is that I think that battles are not described fully to give us the whole picture, that sometimes some things are missing from the authors descriptions in order for battles to make sense. I mean, the narrator may have missed a few things, such as that the VSD IIs of the battle were heavily modified versions of the originals and that they had 5000 TIEs as support as well as a few smaller ships like some Carracks or Dreadnaughts. Why not?

I believe that some authors are unable to fully describe battles, and fail to realize that sometimes they MUST study ship characteristics in order to make a battle that really makes sense. That's why I say that to state as a fact that four Dreadnaughts will NOT by any reason defeat an ISD, based on a statement on a novel in where an hour of the battle is not described is a little rushed.

 

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IceHawk-181  1045 posts
Registered: Mar '04
23521_Handmaiden
Date Posted: 3/6 7:19pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
I have already covered this, but I shall repeat myself.

Captain Pellaeon, in the aftermath of reflecting upon the naiveté and inexperience of his entire crew, considered the integrity of the mission as his first priority.

The Chimera was undertaking covert intelligence gathering missions, and was in the process of retrieving the recon flight.

The mission did not, in so far as we were aware, include engagement of enemy capital ships in its profile.

Pellaeon’s first reaction was to recover the fighters and leave the area, with the mission objectives completed with no further losses.

Second, the force was obviously not impossible to defeat, as under the tactical guidance of Grand Admiral Thrawn the Chimera defeated the entire flotilla after an hour long engagement.

As a corollary to this, tactical prowess aside, a single ISDII survived an hour of combat against four Heavy Cruisers and 108 proton torpedo armed strike fighters. That necessitates superiority in pure power generation on the part of the Star Destroyer.

Finally, Grand Admiral Thrawn’s “genius” is a no limits fallacy.

One might as well assume Thrawn could conquer the whole galaxy with a single modified Missile Boat, simply because he’s a genius…

Physical limits constrain all tactical outcomes, and the physical limits in this case is the reality that an hour of battle left the Chimera relatively (if not completely) unscathed and the entire Republic force eradicated.

solo posted:
And these are the stats used for a very canonical and reliable interpretation of SW space battles in a mod for EAW: FOC

In the first instance Lucas Arts game mechanics are not canonical source material.

In the second instance, no matter how assumedly accurate it is, a fan made mod has absolutely no place in the discussion of canonical matters.

It is immaterial.


If you want a good, and I would argue more realistic, mod to demonstrate the scale of Star Wars battles go get the new Sins of the Solar Empire game.

Download EvileJedi’s Mod (http://warlords.swrebellion.com/wp/) and be amazed…




And following up on the last few posts.

Canon is canon.

Period.

You cannot assume that there are entire tracts of missing material from an author’s written descriptions within the novels simply because you disagree with the extant results of those writings.






 

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anakinskysolo 
Registered: Feb '08
Date Posted: 3/7 2:36pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
IceHawk-181 posted:
I have already covered this, but I shall repeat myself.

Captain Pellaeon, in the aftermath of reflecting upon the naiveté and inexperience of his entire crew, considered the integrity of the mission as his first priority.

The Chimera was undertaking covert intelligence gathering missions, and was in the process of retrieving the recon flight.

The mission did not, in so far as we were aware, include engagement of enemy capital ships in its profile.

Pellaeon’s first reaction was to recover the fighters and leave the area, with the mission objectives completed with no further losses.

Second, the force was obviously not impossible to defeat, as under the tactical guidance of Grand Admiral Thrawn the Chimera defeated the entire flotilla after an hour long engagement.

As a corollary to this, tactical prowess aside, a single ISDII survived an hour of combat against four Heavy Cruisers and 108 proton torpedo armed strike fighters. That necessitates superiority in pure power generation on the part of the Star Destroyer.

Finally, Grand Admiral Thrawn’s “genius” is a no limits fallacy.

One might as well assume Thrawn could conquer the whole galaxy with a single modified Missile Boat, simply because he’s a genius…

Physical limits constrain all tactical outcomes, and the physical limits in this case is the reality that an hour of battle left the Chimera relatively (if not completely) unscathed and the entire Republic force eradicated.

solo posted:
And these are the stats used for a very canonical and reliable interpretation of SW space battles in a mod for EAW: FOC

In the first instance Lucas Arts game mechanics are not canonical source material.

In the second instance, no matter how assumedly accurate it is, a fan made mod has absolutely no place in the discussion of canonical matters.

It is immaterial.


If you want a good, and I would argue more realistic, mod to demonstrate the scale of Star Wars battles go get the new Sins of the Solar Empire game.

Download EvileJedi’s Mod (http://warlords.swrebellion.com/wp/) and be amazed…




And following up on the last few posts.

Canon is canon.

Period.

You cannot assume that there are entire tracts of missing material from an author’s written descriptions within the novels simply because you disagree with the extant results of those writings.



Thrawn's genius is what allows him to regain much of the lost territory of the Empire and what put the NR in danger with much less resources than them. And this first battle is the opening scene of the book to show us how Thrawn was able to win a fight with inferior forces.

Quote from Wookiepedia

By studying the art of the Elomin, Thrawn knew that the New Republic commander would be psychologically incapable of responding adequately to the unstructured attack profile of the maneuver, given the seeming inferiority of the forces involved. The frigates and X-wings fell back and assumed a defensive posture which allowed the Chimaera to take the fight to them. As a result, the New Republic task force was wiped out to the last ship.

And we also know that Thrawn's genius is able to do many, many things. Don't be ridicoulous, he can't overcome impossible odds (I exagerated when I said that) but he can win with inferior forces.

About your statement "canon is canon" I have to say that I've seen your ship compendium, and I see that many ship stats are not canonical at all. They even contradict canon.

 

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IceHawk-181  1045 posts
Registered: Mar '04
23521_Handmaiden
Date Posted: 3/7 7:49pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II) - Date Edited: 3/7 7:50pm (1 edits total) Edited By: IceHawk-181
Thus far you have made three arguments:

1) We should assume that authors do not write proper battles, and therefore should be allowed to substitute our own theories
2) Because an unofficial mod that changes non-canon game mechanics in a way that allows Dreadnoughts to destroy an ISDII, that is what canon says.
3) Because Grand Admiral Thrawn is known to be a Strategic prodigy, we can assume he is a tactical prodigy, and that only he could possibly defeat a contingent of 4 Assault Frigates with an ISDII.

Now we have added…

4) A fan-written and edited non-canon wikipedia paragraph should be taken as source material/evidence.

Unfortunately, I only have the canonically published WEG statistics and the actual novels to go from.

Canon states…
1) A single ISDII can defeat 4 Assault Frigates and 108-Wings
2) A single ISDII can withstand an hour of attack from such a flotilla with little, perhaps no, damage
3) A single ISDII’s WEG Canon stats demonstrate that its lightest cannons could wipe out 5 Dreadnoughts / 3 Assault Frigates, on their own
4) An ISDII has one of the most powerful and efficient power generation systems equipped on a conventional capital ship. (Far newer and superior to the aged Dreadnoughts and makeshift Assault Frigate)

The fan theory that Six Dreadnoughts or 4 Assault Frigates are actually capable of destroying an ISDII (without the use of a suicide run) is simply unsupported by canon.

Shifting over to questions of Grand Admiral Thrawn:
1) The Empire at the time of Thrawn’s campaign has a rough power parity with the New Republic
2) Based on the area of space still controlled, and the conquest rates of Thrawn’s offensive forces, he is likely deploying a few dozen to a few hundred Star Destroyers while a few thousand (4 – 12.5k I would argue) remain in the hands of the Ruling Council and major warlords. (ex. Reaper, an Executor Star Dreadnought, was never under the command of Thrawn, despite being in Imperial hands throughout the period of the Shogunate)

solo posted:
About your statement "canon is canon" I have to say that I've seen your ship compendium, and I see that many ship stats are not canonical at all. They even contradict canon.

An interesting statement.
I do not have a ship compendium, first of all.
And I never argued that EJ’s mod utilized canon armaments…simply that it showed a more accurate portrayal of capital ship battles.
Assuming of course that is what you are talking about.

 

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DarthBoba  33067 posts
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 3/8 9:00am Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II) - Date Edited: 3/8 9:01am (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthBoba
Solo posted:
About your statement "canon is canon" I have to say that I've seen your ship compendium, and I see that many ship stats are not canonical at all. They even contradict canon.








IceHawk181 posted:
An interesting statement.
I do not have a ship compendium, first of all.
And I never argued that EJ’s mod utilized canon armaments…simply that it showed a more accurate portrayal of capital ship battles.
Assuming of course that is what you are talking about.




DarthBoba posted:
laugh



 

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anakinskysolo 
Registered: Feb '08
Date Posted: 3/12 6:05pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
I'm not in the mood to look for quotes, but I did read it again twice, and Pellaeon sweared when he saw the frigates and thought something like: "A single SD with an inexperience crew against four frigates and some squadrons of X-wings..." And Thrawn was a tactical genius. Remember when Pellaeon ordered the retreat in the final Battle Of Bilbringi, Pellaeon thought "Maybe Thrawn would be able to convert this in a victory for the Empire, but he was not Thrawn". And remember how he defeated Outbound Flight with a totally inferior force. So I believe that to say he was not a tactical genius is not right. If you want quotes, ask them, I can have them for you.

 

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StarWarsIsGood 
Registered: Feb '06
41984_X-Wing Outline
Date Posted: 3/25 7:21pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
I have a question about TIE Defenders: what were the differences between the ones in Shadows of Mindor and the Defenders used elsewhere (the games, Isard's Revenge and all that jazz)?

On wookie I see a lot on the TIE Defender but I'm not sure how those are different from the ones described in Shadows of Mindor? Is there a link or has it been explained before what the changes are (and maybe even why)?

Thanks and all,

 

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johnthejedi24  667 posts
Registered: Oct '04
6624_X-Wing Fighter
Date Posted: 3/25 10:15pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
I don't know of any changes? They all have the same amount of Laser/Ion/Missile weapons but I don't know if the more mass produced ones had the "special beam weapon" or special missiles as seen in the TIE Fighter Game. I though the Defender was a low production ship with few produced....maybe a couple hundred Before Endor. I guess I was wrong because Shadows Of Mindor states 10000 were produced. While that might seem like a lot to us, to the Galactic Empire it is NOTHING. The other TIE variants probably number in the TRILLIONS, if you count ones on the starbases, ships, in use by the Army for ground support, in reserve/drydock...etc. cool

 

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TIEDefenderPilot  662 posts
Registered: Oct '03
19348_TIE Defender
Date Posted: 3/25 10:46pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
The TIE Defenders in Shadows of Mindor are erroneously written to have no particle shielding. Despite being a fairly obvious error (At least to me), the way Stover wrote the book it was necessary for his storyline(The Rebels use flak torpedoes with homing devices to shoot down the TIE Defenders and then subsequently find out where the TIEs were operating from).

I pointed this out in the spoiler thread on Shadows of Mindor. S

 

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blackmyron  2524 posts
Registered: Oct '05
Date Posted: 3/25 10:57pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
Matt Stover had this to say on the Mindor thread:

" While the Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology claims that "particle shields are standard on all starships" (clearly an unsupportable generalization, given the specific notation in the Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, where the TIE fighter entry states that these have "no shields" and that the TIE/In Interceptors only began to show up as shielded models shortly before the Emperor' death), the Wook also specifically designates the Chempat shield generator (on the X-wing) as being "capable of generating both ray and particle shields. Thanks to this unit, the X-wing was able to withstand greater amounts of punishment than Imperial fighters of the same era."

So: you are welcome to make whatever assumptions you feel are appropriate, but the TIE Defenders used by Shadowspawn's forces in Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor do not have particle shields. Don't blame me; I just work here."

 

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Excellence  24488 posts
Registered: Jul '02
6338_New Republic Seal
Date Posted: 3/25 11:45pm Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Shield of Lies, talks much on civilian starship specs. Almost all ships have at least nav shields, for warding micrometeorites and such.

For Tiefenders not to have particles would be death for even the slightest impact nick, let alone collision.

 

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blackmyron  2524 posts
Registered: Oct '05
Date Posted: 3/26 1:14am Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)
If the generic-brand TIEs can survive without shields, presumably so can the executive versions.

 

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Excellence  24488 posts
Registered: Jul '02
6338_New Republic Seal
Date Posted: 3/26 2:40am Subject: Fleet Junkie Flagship- The technical discussions of the GFFA (Capital Ships thread Mk. II)

Lol! But they don't, my friend. TIEs just don't survive. laugh

 

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