Author Topic: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
jedimasterED  2460 posts
Title: Moderator Emeritus
Registered: Oct '99
24103_Jedi Knight
Date Posted: 9/20/05 6:15pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84) - Date Edited: 9/20/05 6:20pm (2 edits total) Edited By: jedimasterED
I think Karen and Ryan did a masterful job discussing three items to account for the seemingly startling discrepancy in numbers between the GAR and the CIS Droid Army:
  1. Superior deployment and engagment techniques
  2. self-inflated CIS numbers
  3. poorer-and-poorer quality and lower-and-lower quantity of driod production
These reasons alone help to bridge the gap of numbers.

Furthermore, Karen and Ryan left it deliciously open for larger numbers of clones produced at other cloning facilities (whether on Kamino, Coruscant, or elsewhere).

Also, who's to say local forces couldn't "occupy" their own planet after and with the help of Republic troops? I think this is quite likely, especially considering this bit related to Commander Gree:
"Commander Gree became an experton alien species and customs." His 41st Elite forged "alliances with native populations."
Millions to hold a planet, eh? We might be thinking a little too much of our militaty "expertise," here, friends. This is a fictional arena, and while our own logic and opinions might lead us to think things should be a certain way, I would like to quote a very wise person:
"Fans do have encyclopaedic knowledge, but like authors, they don't ever have the complete picture, and none of us ever can."
So, just because it doesn't make sense to you right now, doesn't mean it can never make sense or that it HAS to make sense.

Bravo, Karen and Ryan. Your efforts to appease fans and contribute to the Saga are highly commendable! If we had fan-given awards for the EU creators, you two would be up for many, many of them!
Fist_of_Mandalore posted:
Valin_Halcyon posted:
So basically the three million figure is just there to confuse us? tongue

I would say so, yes grin
Yeah, you know Karen and Ryan... they hate you all and love to sew confusion, frustration, and angst. rolling_eyes Get a grip, fanboys!

"I know quite a bit about real guns, being a hunter."
No offense, but that statement cracks me up! I'm sure you have so much more experience and expertise that it surpasses the research and insight Karen and Ryan put into this article. Good God, we fans can be so full of ourselves!

But this topic is not about how much more you think you know than Karen or Ryan or anyone else (which, I can assure, is such a misconception it's not funny!) or who could win (and how) between the GAR and China. This topic is about the article and discussing it, so please, knock this crap off.

 

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Valin_Halcyon  1151 posts
Registered: Jan '05
19914_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 9/20/05 6:19pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
I, for one would have liked to see delta or omega squad storm shanghai.....

Back to the point at hand: there obviously must have been token forces of clones guarding most republic planets. The various senators would be demanding it, needed or not.

 

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Brian_Babtech 
Registered: Sep '05
20871_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 9/20/05 6:21pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Fist_of_Mandalore posted:
Brian_Babtech posted:


And how do you think they'd defend against missiles, artillery, and tanks?

Uh, with missiles, artillery and tanks of their own. Simple eh?

EDIT: If the Clones didnt have air/orbital support, how do they get to China in the first place?


Irrelevant. It is an example meant to put things into perspective. These guys think that a few ground troops can defeat a planet full of battledroids. They don't take into account that air or space support also involves many more thousands of troops per planet. I guess those stardestroyers, gunships, and starfighters just fly themselves?
It simply takes manpower to occupy a planet. No matter the technology. Period.

Sure they'd fight China with missiles, artillery, and tanks. But that other dude doesn't understand that those things can penetrate trooper armor. I'm sorry, but a troop can't carry armor that would stand up to a 2000 pound bomb.

 

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Valin_Halcyon  1151 posts
Registered: Jan '05
19914_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 9/20/05 6:24pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Wait, the ships were fully staffed by clones?

 

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Brian_Babtech 
Registered: Sep '05
20871_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 9/20/05 6:29pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
jedimasterED posted:
I think Karen and Ryan did a masterful job discussing three items to account for the seemingly startling discrepancy in numbers between the GAR and the CIS Droid Army:
  1. Superior deployment and engagment techniques
  2. self-inflated CIS numbers
  3. poorer-and-poorer quality and lower-and-lower quantity of driod production
These reasons alone help to bridge the gap of numbers.

Furthermore, Karen and Ryan left it deliciously open for larger numbers of clones produced at other cloning facilities (whether on Kamino, Coruscant, or elsewhere).

Also, who's to say local forces couldn't "occupy" their own planet after and with the help of Republic troops? I think this is quite likely, especially considering this bit related to Commander Gree:
"Commander Gree became an experton alien species and customs." His 41st Elite forged "alliances with native populations."
Millions to hold a planet, eh? We might be thinking a little too much of our militaty "expertise," here, friends. This is a fictional arena, and while our own logic and opinions might lead us to think things should be a certain way, I would like to quote a very wise person:
"Fans do have encyclopaedic knowledge, but like authors, they don't ever have the complete picture, and none of us ever can."
So, just because it doesn't make sense to you right now, doesn't mean it can never make sense or that it HAS to make sense.

Bravo, Karen and Ryan. Your efforts to appease fans and contribute to the Saga are highly commendable! If we had fan-given awards for the EU creators, you two would be up for many, many of them!
Fist_of_Mandalore posted:
Valin_Halcyon posted:
So basically the three million figure is just there to confuse us? tongue

I would say so, yes grin
Yeah, you know Karen and Ryan... they hate you all and love to sew confusion, frustration, and angst. rolling_eyes Get a grip, fanboys!

"I know quite a bit about real guns, being a hunter."
No offense, but that statement cracks me up! I'm sure you have so much more experience and expertise that it surpasses the research and insight Karen and Ryan put into this article. Good God, we fans can be so full of ourselves!

But this topic is not about how much more you think you know than Karen or Ryan or anyone else (which, I can assure, is such a misconception it's not funny!) or who could win (and how) between the GAR and China. This topic is about the article and discussing it, so please, knock this crap off.


Local forces can't occupy the planet, because those same local forces couldn't defend from the invasion in the first place. (rolls eyes)

Do I know more than the people who claim that the GAotR is made up of 3 million troops to fight over a galaxy. I guess so. Otherwise, they would know better. But that statement about firearms had nothing to do with them. Or you. It had to do with body armor shrugging off heavy fire.

As fas as knocking it off, tell that to the authors, who bothered posting numbers in the first place. If they are going to post numbers, they should make an ounce of sense. Otherwise, don't post numbers at all. Furthermore, if you think it is so silly, why did you post a very long message about the topic??? Why don't *you* simply shrug it off and go post about something that you feel is worth your attention?

 

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Brian_Babtech 
Registered: Sep '05
20871_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 9/20/05 6:31pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Valin_Halcyon posted:
Wait, the ships were fully staffed by clones?


No they weren't, but they were staffed, automatically shooting the numbers through the stratosphere.

 

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Thrawn McEwok  13650 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: May '00
43231_Chiss Ewok
Date Posted: 9/20/05 7:06pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Leto: they had the cloning facility at the Dantooine enclave up and running for the Clone Wars?

*wants to see a Revan clone pop up in the Prequels*

Hang on... Dantooine, KotOR, Sunriders, Imperial takeover... *smothered by clone hoojibs*

And... ED "self-inflated CIS numbers"?

Blow-up battledroids?

Canon go boom? tongue

I like the way this seems to be nicely ambiguous, though... happy

- The Imperial Ewok

 

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jedimasterED  2460 posts
Title: Moderator Emeritus
Registered: Oct '99
24103_Jedi Knight
Date Posted: 9/20/05 7:16pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Thrawn McEwok posted:
And... ED "self-inflated CIS numbers"?

Blow-up battledroids?

Canon go boom? tongue
Well, perhaps I reading a bit much into the following statements from page 25, under the heading of "Numbers""
The strength of the Separatist forces was often quoted as quadrillions..."
and...
"... a significant portion of the droid army was either half-complete or incorrectly assembled."
So, from a certain point of view, you could have an in-universe explanation that the CIS was reporting production numbers that were not accurate for various reasons, not the least of which might be an attempt to intimidate through numbers.
Thrawn McEwok posted:
I like the way this seems to be nicely ambiguous, though... happy
Indeed. The more and more I read it, the more and more I realize just how flexible and open for possibilities the article truly is.

 

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President_Sharky  1191 posts
Registered: Jan '04
24212_Palpatine
Date Posted: 9/20/05 7:19pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Well look at it this way, the Grand Army is the highest organizational category for the clone army, correct? Well who's to say that the Republic didn't have a few dozen Grand Armies at its disposal.

Seriously this is the only way to try and rationalize these numbers. Laybrinth of Evil states that 200,000 troops is half of the Coruscant Home Fleet troops, meaning that there are already 400,000 clone troopers used simply to defend the capital. Not to mention that in addition to the Home Fleet's troops there are the many thousands of clonetroopers doing security duty throughout Galactic City. This immediately reduces the rest of the Grand Army to 2.6 million troops. Nearly all the major powers of the Second World War fielded more than that. Hell, Russia lost more men than that, and that was a conflict on a single planet that would only be moderately-populated by SW standards.

 

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Gladiuus  1063 posts
Registered: Nov '03
19250_Seal of the Empire
Date Posted: 9/20/05 7:22pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
[link=boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=jedimasterED] jedimasterED[/link] posted on 9/20/05 7:16pm
Indeed. The more and more I read it, the more and more I realize just how flexible and open for possibilities the article truly is.


It doesn't seem to be to me. The ORBAT column quite explicitly states that the Grand Army is made up of ten System Armies, each headed by a Jedi Council member. The Gradn Army itself is lead by the Chancellor. Unless there are multiple Grand Armies, and by extension more than twelve council members, then the figure stands at an unfortunate mere 3 million clones. Which, as mentioned by others, is absurd.

I love Karen and Ryan's work, but... the numbers here just don't make too much sense.

 

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JimRaynor55  326 posts
Registered: Mar '05
20435_Star Destroyer
Date Posted: 9/20/05 7:27pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84) - Date Edited: 9/20/05 7:34pm (3 edits total) Edited By: JimRaynor55
The idea that the CIS army was led by incompetents is refuted by the official databank:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/generalgrievous/

starwars.com posted:
When the greedy corporate titans and the disenfranchised systems of the galaxy pooled their resources together to leave the aging Galactic Republic behind, they became the Confederacy of Independent Systems. Their military assets formed a droid army of seemingly limitless size -- a weapon that needed a military mastermind to be wielded effectively.

From within the ranks of the Confederacy came General Grievous, a brilliant strategist unhindered by compassion or scruples. His lightning strikes and effective campaigns caused his reputation to grow in the eyes of a frightened Republic. To many, he eclipsed the threat posed by Count Dooku, the charismatic leader of the Confederacy's political battlefields -- Grievous was the face of the enemy.


starwars.com posted:
Following that bloody debut, scattered reports along the HoloNet told of numerous successes in the Office of the General's campaigns against the Republic. Grievous led a stab into the Republic's inner systems along the Corellian Trade Spine, conquering world after world. When Duro fell to a concentrated Confederacy attack, the insulated Core Worlds trembled in fear of what the General was able to achieve.


Grievous wasn't just some cool Jedi-slayer. He was a military mastermind who could have probably given Thrawn a run for his money.

 

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Diesel213 
Registered: Sep '05
39876_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 9/20/05 7:36pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
The 3 million number would have to be for one "Grand Army", with others in existance in order to justify this incredibly low number. The problem there was the whole speech with Palpatine creating a "Grand Army of the Republic" (singular). Further, I don't see how the movies themselves even support this 200:1 kill ratio or what have you. We saw many clonetroopers go down in battle with the droids and not kill 200 each time. Unless the clonetroopers that we see in actual battle is somehow not indicitive of their actual abilites.

Quite frankly Ossus nailed my feelings on it as well.

 

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jedimasterED  2460 posts
Title: Moderator Emeritus
Registered: Oct '99
24103_Jedi Knight
Date Posted: 9/20/05 7:41pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Gladiuus posted:
[link=boards.theforce.net/user.asp?usr=jedimasterED] jedimasterED[/link] posted on 9/20/05 7:16pm
Indeed. The more and more I read it, the more and more I realize just how flexible and open for possibilities the article truly is.


It doesn't seem to be to me. The ORBAT column quite explicitly states that the Grand Army is made up of ten System Armies, each headed by a Jedi Council member. The Gradn Army itself is lead by the Chancellor. Unless there are multiple Grand Armies, and by extension more than twelve council members, then the figure stands at an unfortunate mere 3 million clones. Which, as mentioned by others, is absurd.

I love Karen and Ryan's work, but... the numbers here just don't make too much sense.
My copy says (on page 26 in the blue box entitled "Regular Army: Strength and Command Structure") that the Grand Army is the equivalent of the "10 Systems Army" PLUS an "additional (3,000,000)" troops. If a "Systems Army" equals 294,912 troops, then the 10 Systems Army would equal 2,949,120 troops. And if the Grand Armay is the 10 Systems Army (2,949,120 troops) PLUS approximately 3,000,000 more, then the total number of troops climbs to around 5,000,000. This doesn't take into account the Special Forces. Is half a billion enough?

Additionally, does the article state that command structure was NEVER deviated from? On the contrary; it leaves things wide open for possibilities.

JimRaynor55 posted:
The idea that the CIS army was led by incompetents is refuted by the official databank... Grievous wasn't just some cool Jedi-slayer. He was a military mastermind who could have probably given Thrawn a run for his money.
Did GG lead each and every droid battalion in the galaxy? I think not. I think it is safe to say that the GAR had superior training, superior troops, superior strategy, and superior commanders (whether Jedi, Clone, or enlisted).

 

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JimRaynor55  326 posts
Registered: Mar '05
20435_Star Destroyer
Date Posted: 9/20/05 7:51pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84) - Date Edited: 9/20/05 7:52pm (1 edits total) Edited By: JimRaynor55
jedimasterED posted:
My copy says (on page 26 in the blue box entitled "Regular Army: Strength and Command Structure") that the Grand Army is the equivalent of the "10 Systems Army" PLUS an "additional (3,000,000)" troops. If a "Systems Army" equals 294,912 troops, then the 10 Systems Army would equal 2,949,120 troops. And if the Grand Armay is the 10 Systems Army (2,949,120 troops) PLUS approximately 3,000,000 more, then the total number of troops climbs to around 5,000,000. This doesn't take into account the Special Forces. Is half a billion enough?


Half a billion is 500 million, which is almost 100 times what you calculated. And even that is too little.

jedimasterED posted:
Did GG lead each and every droid battalion in the galaxy? I think not. I think it is safe to say that the GAR had superior training, superior troops, superior strategy, and superior commanders (whether Jedi, Clone, or enlisted).


Grievous doesn't need to be everywhere. He was the Supreme Commander of the CIS forces, and therefore would have made all the important strategic decisions. He served a role similar to Thrawn during the Thrawn Trilogy, so it is only logical that his leadership would have a similar effect.

 

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jedimasterED  2460 posts
Title: Moderator Emeritus
Registered: Oct '99
24103_Jedi Knight
Date Posted: 9/20/05 8:02pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84) - Date Edited: 9/20/05 8:09pm (1 edits total) Edited By: jedimasterED
JimRaynor55 posted:
Half a billion is 500 million, which is almost 100 times what you calculated. And even that is too little.
Oops! I'm embarrased. Had a little short-circuit! I know 5,000,000 isn't half a billion!

is 500,000,000 or 5,000,000 is "too little"? And for whom? You? Others? Sometimes it takes a little more to suspend disbelief. We're willing to suspend it for the Force but not for this... we make interesting choices.

JimRaynor55 posted:
Grievous doesn't need to be everywhere. He was the Supreme Commander of the CIS forces, and therefore would have made all the important strategic decisions. He served a role similar to Thrawn during the Thrawn Trilogy, so it is only logical that his leadership would have a similar effect.
"Only logical" that GG=Thrawn? Perhaps for you. Also, it seems every single strategy devised by the Grand Admiral depicted in the Thrawn Trilogy was directly overseen by Palleon and Thrawn.

While GG doesn't need to be everywhere to plan strategy, those strategems appear to work best when he is directly commanding the forces employed therein. So, I apply my logic to deduce that, even the best laid plans of mouse droids and cyborg generals can be undone by poor field commanders.

This is boiling down to point of view and preference, not absolute right and absolute wrong. I choose to see it one way. Others choose to see it another way.

 

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