Author Topic: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Corran_Fett  3100 posts
Registered: Jan '05
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 12:35pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
They look equal to usual ARCs wink

this one is older, but the clone to the right is N-11 Ordo:

 

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KarenTraviss  2326 posts
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18193_Clone
Date Posted: 9/19/05 12:37pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Grand_Admiral_Gotti posted:
We have any pics of these "bad ass" clones???

link please


The splendid Robert Hendrickson art from Insider, one original of which is on my wall: they don't look any dfferent armour-wise from the plain vanilla ARCs.




 

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KarenTraviss  2326 posts
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 12:53pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84) - Date Edited: 9/19/05 1:02pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KarenTraviss
CeiranHarmony posted:
then it works, thx happy

another question:

ARCs went to stasis because they were less obediant than regulars. do we have an exact date when that was?

I assume it could be after Alpha02 Spar left, going Rogue. But then we have ARC clones remembering geonosis battle in some clone wars novels, but we know they came out of stasis after that. so maybe, I assume, they were deployed on Geonosis in a small number, but put in stasis afterwards because of their too harsh and inobedient behaviour? possible or is there another explanation? or is the memory in the novel just declared wrong officially?


No, I don't have a date for that, nor do I know if they all went into stasis at once.

What memory? I haven't read Cestus, remember.

FWIW, the Kaminoans already had the Alphas in production when they found out they'd screwed up with the Nulls. (Don't forget that they lost 50% of the Nulls as foetuses, which would encourage them to look again at what became known as the Alpha batch.) And don't forget it's not just what you put into the genome from the start - you can alter gene expression during development. (Which, of course, happens all the time in nature. And...it's why cloned animals with identical genomes often look different. And you can bet the Kaminoans knew how to do that to order.)

There's argument about when the programme started but it was a months after Jango got the gig, not a year. And you might be assuming a constant rate of development in vitro (for want of a better word, 'cos it sure as hell ain't in utero). Those sushi-heads were great at manipulating development rates, believe me.

 

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KarenTraviss  2326 posts
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 1:07pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Corran_Fett posted:
They look equal to usual ARCs wink

this one is older, but the clone to the right is N-11 Ordo:


We've said before that the armour is the same. I recall some folks getting worried that they'd have to re-do their models. grin

It's the man inside that counts, of course... cool

Don't get me wrong. I love ARCs. But the Nulls had a rough start and made the best of it.

 

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Corran_Fett  3100 posts
Registered: Jan '05
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 1:14pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
KarenTraviss posted:
We've said before that the armour is the same.

Actually, I posted that befor your post, lol ... never mind...

KarenTraviss posted:
I recall some folks getting worried that they'd have to re-do their models. grin

It's the man inside that counts, of course... cool


Yes, and I guess we have a totally different man than Jango, haven't we?

KarenTraviss posted:
Don't get me wrong. I love ARCs. But the Nulls had a rough start and made the best of it.


We'll see about that... *g*

But with you as an author they gotta be great grin

 

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KarenTraviss  2326 posts
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 1:25pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Corran_Fett posted:
KarenTraviss posted:
We've said before that the armour is the same.

Actually, I posted that befor your post, lol ... never mind...

KarenTraviss posted:
I recall some folks getting worried that they'd have to re-do their models. grin

It's the man inside that counts, of course... cool


Yes, and I guess we have a totally different man than Jango, haven't we?


In some ways, yes. Mentally, quite different.

Corran_Fett posted:
KarenTraviss posted:
Don't get me wrong. I love ARCs. But the Nulls had a rough start and made the best of it.


We'll see about that... *g*

But with you as an author they gotta be great grin


Remember, I take the view that no clone is better than another - they're just better suited to their different tasks. So I'm not setting the Nulls up to be "better" than the ARCs. Just different. It's a reflection of the fact that it's impossible to make absolute cookie cutter versions of any species, even if they look the same. Every life is an individual life, be it a sheep or a man.

 

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CeiranHarmony  4490 posts
Registered: May '04
17274_Dark Apprentice
Date Posted: 9/19/05 1:29pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
KarenTraviss posted:
CeiranHarmony posted:
then it works, thx happy

another question:

ARCs went to stasis because they were less obediant than regulars. do we have an exact date when that was?

I assume it could be after Alpha02 Spar left, going Rogue. But then we have ARC clones remembering geonosis battle in some clone wars novels, but we know they came out of stasis after that. so maybe, I assume, they were deployed on Geonosis in a small number, but put in stasis afterwards because of their too harsh and inobedient behaviour? possible or is there another explanation? or is the memory in the novel just declared wrong officially?


No, I don't have a date for that, nor do I know if they all went into stasis at once.

What memory? I haven't read Cestus, remember.

FWIW, the Kaminoans already had the Alphas in production when they found out they'd screwed up with the Nulls. (Don't forget that they lost 50% of the Nulls as foetuses, which would encourage them to look again at what became known as the Alpha batch.) And don't forget it's not just what you put into the genome from the start - you can alter gene expression during development. (Which, of course, happens all the time in nature. And...it's why cloned animals with identical genomes often look different. And you can bet the Kaminoans knew how to do that to order.)

There's argument about when the programme started but it was a months after Jango got the gig, not a year. And you might be assuming a constant rate of development in vitro (for want of a better word, 'cos it sure as hell ain't in utero). Those sushi-heads were great at manipulating development rates, believe me.


some ARC talked about remembering the geonosis mission. but they came out of stasis after geonosis, so the question when they got in stasis remains.

 

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KarenTraviss  2326 posts
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 1:38pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
CeiranHarmony posted:
some ARC talked about remembering the geonosis mission. but they came out of stasis after geonosis, so the question when they got in stasis remains.


I'll see if I can pin that down. I'm like you - loose ends drive me scatty. I want tidy timelines!

 

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CeiranHarmony  4490 posts
Registered: May '04
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 1:46pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
thx, and with spoilers of the GAR article in several threads (some in the mandalorian thread about new holstice), I get really impatient to read it.

 

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Ryan_Kaufman  533 posts
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 2:51pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
As a special treat for you TFN guys, I'd like to impart a little nugget of GAR info that had to be cut from the GGAR article (because of length.)

Jango trained the ARCs as he would have trained his own Mando sons. That meant many live-fire exercises, and some unavoidable casualties and deaths.

The Kaminoans, bean-counters and perfectionists, still wanted a batch of exactly 100 ARCs. So, they replaced the dead and wounded ARCs with regular clone troopers. These troopers were given a "trial by fire" and forced to keep up with their unaltered brethren. As a testament to the heart of the average clone trooper, there were no washouts.

When the decision came down to place the unpredictable ARC troopers in stasis, these regular-army ARCs were allowed to remain in service. They were considered more docile and easier to command than their counter-parts. They are also commonly referred to simply as "commandos." (Not to be confused with Republic Commandos.)

THIS is the reason why you have some ARC troopers who served at Geonosis. And ARCs who don't fit the usual profile, for various reasons.

 

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jedimasterED  2460 posts
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 2:58pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Ryan_Kaufman posted:
As a special treat for you TFN guys, I'd like to impart a little nugget of GAR info that had to be cut from the GGAR article (because of length.)

Jango trained the ARCs as he would have trained his own Mando sons. That meant many live-fire exercises, and some unavoidable casualties and deaths.

The Kaminoans, bean-counters and perfectionists, still wanted a batch of exactly 100 ARCs. So, they replaced the dead and wounded ARCs with regular clone troopers. These troopers were given a "trial by fire" and forced to keep up with their unaltered brethren. As a testament to the heart of the average clone trooper, there were no washouts.

When the decision came down to place the unpredictable ARC troopers in stasis, these regular-army ARCs were allowed to remain in service. They were considered more docile and easier to command than their counter-parts. They are also commonly referred to simply as "commandos." (Not to be confused with Republic Commandos.)

THIS is the reason why you have some ARC troopers who served at Geonosis. And ARCs who don't fit the usual profile, for various reasons.
A well-crafted retcon indeed!

 

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CeiranHarmony  4490 posts
Registered: May '04
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 3:20pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
Ryan_Kaufman posted:
As a special treat for you TFN guys, I'd like to impart a little nugget of GAR info that had to be cut from the GGAR article (because of length.)

Jango trained the ARCs as he would have trained his own Mando sons. That meant many live-fire exercises, and some unavoidable casualties and deaths.

The Kaminoans, bean-counters and perfectionists, still wanted a batch of exactly 100 ARCs. So, they replaced the dead and wounded ARCs with regular clone troopers. These troopers were given a "trial by fire" and forced to keep up with their unaltered brethren. As a testament to the heart of the average clone trooper, there were no washouts.

When the decision came down to place the unpredictable ARC troopers in stasis, these regular-army ARCs were allowed to remain in service. They were considered more docile and easier to command than their counter-parts. They are also commonly referred to simply as "commandos." (Not to be confused with Republic Commandos.)

THIS is the reason why you have some ARC troopers who served at Geonosis. And ARCs who don't fit the usual profile, for various reasons.


I love this retcon, thx alot! it is great info resolving that matter finally! anything else cut that you want to reveal? wink

 

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Kudzu  6437 posts
Registered: Jun '05
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 4:23pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84)
I'll see if I understand this: in order of creation, Null-ARC (Ø-ARC) troopers, Alpha-ARC troopers, ARC troopers, clone commandoes. All of them basically experimental to begin with.

So which Ø-ARCs died before being activated? Without giving too much away, I'd like to work a fanfictional Null into my own writings, and because I consider my fanfiction part of a personal canon (I wish that you weren't restricted by contract, because we could have some good things to discuss about the clones, but meh) I want to ensure that I won't have to be completely reworking stuff that is contradicted by canon, which rightfully ignores fanon (most of the time).

As an aside, does the article say whether the clone commanders trained by Alpha (Cody, Neyo, Bly, Bacara, Thire, Odd Ball, Keller, Appo, and the rest) were given his tutelage class as their final instruction before being shipped out into the Wars or just retired back to Kamino to undergo the instruction for a couple months or so? Personally, I'm thinking the former - the first-generation and second-generation commanders were just stock clones given standardized leadership training courses et al. and shipped out, while the third-generation(?) commanders were the ones trained by Alpha midway through the war (possibly delaying their entrance into Republic military ranks) before being sent into battle. That's what all sources seem to be implying; I'm just wondering if GGAR says for sure.

 

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Ryan_Kaufman  533 posts
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 4:41pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84) - Date Edited: 9/19/05 4:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ryan_Kaufman
Kudzu posted:
As an aside, does the article say whether the clone commanders trained by Alpha (Cody, Neyo, Bly, Bacara, Thire, Odd Ball, Keller, Appo, and the rest) were given his tutelage class as their final instruction before being shipped out into the Wars or just retired back to Kamino to undergo the instruction for a couple months or so?


Kudzu, we very carefully chose the phrase "rotated through the program" to cover both commanders who were in the field, and commanders yet to graduate from Kamino. They came from all generations and were admitted based on both merit and Factor H.

 

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Kudzu  6437 posts
Registered: Jun '05
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Date Posted: 9/19/05 4:42pm Subject: RE: Guide to the Grand Army (Insider #84) - Date Edited: 9/19/05 4:42pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Kudzu
Copy that, Commander Ryman. Thanks for the info.

 

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