Jedi Council Forums - The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting up

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Author	Topic: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting up
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 10/11/05 5:09pm Subject: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting up
	It's been many years since the EU started and it's a lot less simpler than when we didn't know the Empire was a body that had such a seductive hold on the populous, the Rebellion's total incompetence in setting up a new government, and the reasons for so many officers defecting to it. How has your opinion changed on the conflict between the Rebellion and Empire? Do any events now have a different cast to them? Where did the Empire go right? Where did the Empire go wrong? What do you find realistic and not?
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BobaKareu Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 10/11/05 7:12pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	I always found the Empire to have better control over the galaxy than the New Republic. There was better discipline, and led the galaxy in a Machiavelli style ruling. Sure they're the "bad guys", but from who's point of view? The New Repubic is far too weak because they are trying to hard to let everyone have a say. And frankly, not everyone needs a say. Empire > Republic. Their only mistake was not considering terrorists (or freedom fighters, whichever you choose) as a plausible threat. They were thinking of much bigger threats, and didn't concentrate on all threats. -----signature----- If you play video games, you owe it to yourself to check out CandiedSkull http://www.candiedskull.com/forum/index.php
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CommanderSesfan Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 10/11/05 7:30pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	Countdown until Godwin's Law is invoked! These threads always bring it out somewhere.
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Leto II Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 10/11/05 7:39pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	I know a gentleman named "John Hilter." There. Everybody, go home. -----signature----- "If there's one thing I hate, it's losing. If there's TWO things I hate, it's losing and getting cancer." - Kenny Powers
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 10/11/05 7:48pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	To be blunt, this is a kind of controversy that might be worth discussing.
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Pershing Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 10/11/05 8:09pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting - Date Edited: 10/11/05 8:10pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Pershing
	In retrospect the Empire loses a lot of points for the fact that it couldn't survive the death of Palpatine, the rampant corruption and cronyism, and the priority of the military's ability to inspire terror than actually win battles. And the whole "Human High Culture" thing really was a waste of resources. Considering that a realtively small rebellion toppled it, the Empire wasn't really as stable as I once assumed. Sad story really. The fleets of ISDs were really impressive. -----signature----- "I think, therefore I am. Therefore I must destroy" - old droid proverb "You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here." - Jayne Cobb
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 10/11/05 8:11pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	Part of the Empire's biggest problem was the fact that Palpatine's croneyism took serious pointers from the Feudal Model. The Empire was a Feudal State more than a military dictatorship. Each of the Grand Moffs had armies and Moffs under them with such powers that they might as well essentially be independent Kings of their territories. Everyone could seize incredible military hardware for their own purposes and no one would stop them
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razzy1319 Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 10/11/05 8:29pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	Charlemagne19 posted: Part of the Empire's biggest problem was the fact that Palpatine's croneyism took serious pointers from the Feudal Model. The Empire was a Feudal State more than a military dictatorship. Each of the Grand Moffs had armies and Moffs under them with such powers that they might as well essentially be independent Kings of their territories. Everyone could seize incredible military hardware for their own purposes and no one would stop them So basically, fear and respect for both the sith lords were the only thing that kept them inline? -----signature----- In Space No One Can Hear Your Scream, Except For The BattleCry Of A Galactic Marine -Fictional BattleCry My Kind Weren't Made To Kneel -Fictional Clone Trooper Worst Admin Ever - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/User:WhiteBoy/Kuralyov
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EH_Pilot Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 10/11/05 8:30pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	Pershing: "In retrospect the Empire loses a lot of points for the fact that it couldn't survive the death of Palpatine, the rampant corruption and cronyism, and the priority of the military's ability to inspire terror than actually win battles." Not so. Palpatine's death was a severe blow in many respects, but it sure didn't topple the Empire. Sate Pestage had already been running the Empire by that time and had stepped in as Regeant. If he hadn't known Palpatine was still "alive", he would have allowed the succession to occur and the Empire could continue on as usual, except this time probably actually start employing more than its one billionth of its effort to fighting the Rebellion. "And the whole "Human High Culture" thing really was a waste of resources. Considering that a realtively small rebellion toppled it, the Empire wasn't really as stable as I once assumed." Again, not so. Because of the "High Human Culture", Palpatine gained the loyalty of the Core Worlds, which stuck with the Empire until Isard threw Coruscant away to the New Republic. The Core was always what kept Palpatine in power, because he had their support. -----signature----- Pilot of the Emperor's Hammer TIE Corps www.tiecorps.org Golden Ewok™ Recipient x4; Trojan Ewok™ Recipient -Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero-
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Communista Registered: Jan '01	Date Posted: 10/11/05 8:35pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	If anything, the prequels have made the revolutionary nature of the Galactic Civil War far more apparent. The Empire IS the Republic and the New Republic is merely democracy restored. In political terms, essentially, the 'militarist' faction of the Republic (see, for instance, Stark Hyeprspace War, Attack of the Clones) gained political ascendancy over the 'Republican faction'. Worse than that, they overthrew democracy itself, imposed a dictatorship and committed horrific abuses against sentience. The Rebellion is then led by the exiled 'Republican' peace-loving faction. Its far, far more akin to historical examples than has been analysed before. I even like to think of the Emperor Clono's campaign as thew War of the 100 days 'Imperialism' then is a human-centric, Core-centric, pro-force and pro-power ideology that consumed the Republic (manipulation by Sidious botwithstanding - who essentially represented the same ideology vis-a-a-vis the Force). Indeed, although the supernatural aspect of the force allows us to the say the Sith are 'evil', with regards to politicals, everything is grey, which is why people on these boards can defend the Empire and say its abuses were merely the result of curruption and excess, rather than inherent to its ideology. So, why did the empire perists with some legitimacy after the capture of Coruscant? Well, Warlordism is obvious, since unscrupulous individuals controlled substantial military assets with no ties to civilian populations. But within those populations, there were undoubtedly trillions of unreconstructed imperials who feared the anarchy of the rebellion, or the rule of aliens from the Mid Rim, or being charged with war crimes for their actions during the War. Members of COMPNOR, true believers, true Imperialists, die hards who didn't accept the Empire was evil . . .given the size of the galaxy they could maintain themselves as a seperate state for quite some time. -----signature----- "In order to lead, a leader must know where he is going."
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 10/11/05 8:49pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	Razzy1319 So basically, fear and respect for both the sith lords were the only thing that kept them inline? Palpatine's power and influence at the top of things were significant but actually, his power games did tremendous works to "weed the garden" of the Empire to quote Vergere. Mara Jade and the hands eliminated X number of traitorous Imperials while Darth Vader spent 24/7 after eliminating the Jedi doing his best to put down rogue Imperials as much as he was doing the Rebellion. Still, the stability of the Empire even under Palpatine is questionable given the devastating Civil War fought against Grand Admiral Zaarin independent of the Galactic Rebellion. EH_Pilot Not so. Palpatine's death was a severe blow in many respects, but it sure didn't topple the Empire. Sate Pestage had already been running the Empire by that time and had stepped in as Regeant. If he hadn't known Palpatine was still "alive", he would have allowed the succession to occur and the Empire could continue on as usual, except this time probably actually start employing more than its one billionth of its effort to fighting the Rebellion. Sate Pestage unfortunately lacked anything remotely resembling charisma, political skill, or the ruthless brilliance of Emperor Palpatine. He was a successful administrator that's true, but that's far and away from what was needed to be Emperor of the Galaxy. I remind you that Pestage wasn't sabotaging the process either. He was in command of the Empire until Palpatine's ressurection as far as he was concerned (or his clone was to be). However: Grand Moff Hissa and the rest of his treasonous Central Committee Most of the surviving Grand Admirals Admiral Harrsk Yssane Isard Warlord Zsinj ...All refused to acknowledge his authority (Isard did so publically but not privately). They're just the major warlords too. Again, not so. Because of the "High Human Culture", Palpatine gained the loyalty of the Core Worlds, which stuck with the Empire until Isard threw Coruscant away to the New Republic. The Core was always what kept Palpatine in power, because he had their support. I largely agree, Palpatine used aliens as a scapegoat after the Seperatists and Jedi were defeated.
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Pershing Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 10/11/05 10:04pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	EH- "Again, not so. Because of the "High Human Culture", Palpatine gained the loyalty of the Core Worlds, which stuck with the Empire until Isard threw Coruscant away to the New Republic. The Core was always what kept Palpatine in power, because he had their support." In my response I hope you understand when I single out COMPNOR. This organization was a very big proponent of Human High Culture. However its own zealotry(sp?) resulted in many competent officials being replaced by fools and madmen who were consumed by the mentality of HHC. This lead to totally inflexible policies. I understand the value of a good scapegoat, but things rapidly got out of hand with whole persecution thing. Palpatine could've quitely let loose the pressure after his power base was secure, but instead allowed his lackeys to increase their efforts. Ultimately this allowed the Rebellion to gain much sympathy. I agree it was a good propaganda tool for the Core area, but it just got out of hand. "Not so. Palpatine's death was a severe blow in many respects, but it sure didn't topple the Empire." Well, if better systems of authority or more competent people were in place it wouldn't had suffered the reverses it did. True the Empire didn't dissappear in a day, but it did suffer severe loss. Losses that could've been averted. -----signature----- "I think, therefore I am. Therefore I must destroy" - old droid proverb "You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here." - Jayne Cobb
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razzy1319 Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 10/11/05 10:13pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	Palpatine's death did topple the empire. only because it gave everybody a reason to fight each other. More like the fall and decline of the roman empire rather than arthur's camelot. -----signature----- In Space No One Can Hear Your Scream, Except For The BattleCry Of A Galactic Marine -Fictional BattleCry My Kind Weren't Made To Kneel -Fictional Clone Trooper Worst Admin Ever - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/User:WhiteBoy/Kuralyov
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 10/11/05 11:08pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	Well, if better systems of authority or more competent people were in place it wouldn't had suffered the reverses it did. True the Empire didn't dissappear in a day, but it did suffer severe loss. Losses that could've been averted. The most disturbing aspect of it all is Palpatine was the one whom sabotaged the war effort against his own people. He diverted valuable war material to the point that Yssane Isard felt it was better to give up Coruscant and destroy the Republic in an insurgency than try to keep the planet. He even helped in Thrawn's death.
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Pershing Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 10/11/05 11:37pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	Charlemange- And that's where Palpy losses points. He's so wrapped up in being a Sith Lord and destroying the Jedi that he proves that he doesn't really care about his Empire. That and his resurrection drove him nuts. -----signature----- "I think, therefore I am. Therefore I must destroy" - old droid proverb "You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with until you understand who's in ruttin' command here." - Jayne Cobb
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 10/11/05 11:49pm Subject: RE: The Legitimacy of the Empire, how justified was the Rebellion, and mistakes/problems in setting
	Palpatine's Empire is the Sith Empire. I think it's important to remember this. The Grand Moffs, Grand Admirals, etc are all steps along the road to making a Dark Side Theocracy. If Dooku's ideas actually reflect Palpatines then the Dark Side Prophets and other groups that served him were all stepping stones to recreating the Ancient Sith multitudes. The fact they WEREN'T sith is a sign of Palpatine's caution but the insturments for making the Sith reborn were there.
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