Author Topic: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Kenobi_Kid  1810 posts
Registered: May '05
6455_Ewan the Prankster
Date Posted: 10/17/05 4:16pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
I think that's what the purpose of the thread was, to begin with.

 

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GrandAdmiralJello  60052 posts
Title: Emperor
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Registered: Nov '00
44644_Imperial Laurels
Date Posted: 10/17/05 4:18pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Everyone's aware of that. Unfortunately, some individuals do not believe they have anything to apologize for. Therein lies the problem.

 

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Master_of_Ossus  457 posts
Registered: Mar '03
17651_ARC Commander
Date Posted: 10/17/05 5:24pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Everyone's aware of that. Unfortunately, some individuals do not believe they have anything to apologize for. Therein lies the problem.


By all means, then, quote something I said that I should apologize for but have not. If you want people to apologize, then you can at least have the decency to post what it is that they should apologize for.

 

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Master_of_Ossus  457 posts
Registered: Mar '03
17651_ARC Commander
Date Posted: 10/17/05 5:42pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Master_Keralys posted:
I'm going to ask an easy-to-answer question to the hardcore Saxtonites who refuse to sign this: Do you, or do you not, want Karen back on these boards, regardless of her stance on the three million clones issue? If you don't, then shut up and leave the rest of us to enjoy their company. Just stay out their way yourselves, and there's no problems.

- Keralys


If I am considered to be a "hardcore Saxtonite," then I've already answered: I do not care if Karen comes back to the boards. I do not see anything in her conduct to me or to my friends that says I should continue to associate with her. It's fine if other people want her back--I have no interest in further interaction with her and so I really don't care if she wants to come back or not.

 

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Havac  14311 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/17/05 5:43pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
It's not so much looking for an apology as a promise not to do anything requiring an apology in the future. Which, one would hope, shouldn't be too much to ask for.

 

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Master_Keralys  6379 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Oct '03
39907_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/17/05 5:47pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/17/05 5:48pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
Okay, fine, MoO. On those grounds, you have no reason not to sign this. This pledge is only a covenant of good faith basically, that you'll conduct yourself civilly. I happen to disagree with your personal issues with Karen, but as long as you have no issue either way, what issue do you have with putting your name to something that asks you to act in good will - if you cannot associate with her, then to at the very least be tolerant of her presence and not attack her character or intelligence - and the same for every other poster on these boards. If you have no problem with any of these views, why aren't you signing? And note, I don't mean signing just to placate us. I mean signing in good faith.

- Keralys

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 10/17/05 5:49pm Subject: PGC: Not that much time, but a quickie for the mods
rhonderoo posted:
If she just "shuts up"? You'd all "make your attacks" and get on to your next phase?


Perhaps I should elaborate for both our mod members. It is obvious from the very beginning that if her idea is to stop the war, her tactics were poor and wound up doing adding fuel to the fire and contempt.

A simple observation of the thread involved shows that civility lasted until after she left, and if there were attacks, they were after she fled to her blog. Either she's not observing the effect of her fire, or maybe she doesn't care.

We will stop getting angry someday. It will happen, so there is really little need to act. You don't stop fights by running over to a protected fortress and shouting "Stop it ... you are acting like babies"; especially if you really started the fight.

 

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Master_Keralys  6379 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Oct '03
39907_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/17/05 6:05pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
A few of us would still beg to differ to the contrary - that she did no such thing, did not in fact start any fight. That in fact, her replies were cordial, if - as we've come to expect from Karen - a tad sarcastic, and simply trying to answer the questions. I've read everything she's said on the subject, and I really don't find a hint of venom or provocation. I find only answers to questions posed, answers that people didn't like/didn't care for.

Her "tactics" had little if anything to do with the course this debate has taken. The violent and odd interpretations of it were what caused the issue. It'd probably help things a ton if you stopped seeing this as a war and started seeing it as a simple disagreement. Your whole fleeing, protected fortress mantra is starting to lose some of its credibility, particularly when examining critically the remarks she made. There's nothing inherently directed at any side, contrary to popular opinion. There's nothing specifically addressing the validity of either side's argument, nothing specifically addressing the argument at all, in fact - just a note that she finds it dumb to get so worked up over something so trivial. She wasn't trying to "stop a war," she was trying to tell people that it's not worth getting so worked up over. I happen to think she was right. You may not. That's your prerogative. However, it is in no way your right to insult/slam/bash her for having that mentality. It is a defensible and (I believe) logical mentality to have when it comes to any piece of entertainment.

So in fact I'd have to agree with her assessment that the behavior regarding this 3 mil debate has been pretty childish, even from the outset. Yes, it started innocently, but quite quickly it was full-on throwing it out the window and insulting the concept - which basically is a thinly veiled attack on the author him/herself.

If you will stop getting angry someday, why not do it sooner rather than later, like, I don't know, maybe now? That's basically what we're asking for. Not that you stop arguing it, but that you stop getting angry about things that aren't worth getting angry for.

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 10/17/05 6:11pm Subject: PGC: Next, handling some sarcasm from Kudzu - Date Edited: 10/17/05 6:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Borleias
Kudzu posted:
So are there Saxtonite entry exams and Saxtonite surveys? Wonder if their acceptance rate is like Harvard's...


It is not written, but I would have thought every board has an informal one, including SDN. When I first posted here, I also acted like I was passing an informal entry exam. I don't know Harvard's acceptance rate (it could be low because of the competitors, but then maybe it is not so low because only the best would try into Harvard), so I can't make a comparison.

Kudzu posted:
"Us intelligent beings known as Saxtonites, though, we're not stupid enough to be fooled by these fallacious lies. We are a more intelligent breed, and all ye who disagree with us are primitive idiots." rolling_eyes


Actually, I merely make an observation that only the most obvious flames seem to be counted in a TFNers scanner.

Kudzu posted:
So if you actually do consider somebody to be a total idiot, they're fair game for flaming? Read the ToS lately? plain


Since this is a moral discussion, yes. I generally do not flame people, and when I do I flame them quite lightly. However, I consider that my style, and not because a flame necessarily obfuscates the message or whatever like some TFNers seem to think. My style also has the advantage it bumps up with the ToS less often, but honestly my style is not altered b/w boards.

Kudzu posted:
"Yes! The mighty warrior Borleias has forced Master_Keralys to his knees in the glorious Battle of Fictional Numbers!"


Fictional numbers in his pond? We are allies on this point.

Kudzu posted:
"And the Saxtonite fans are more intelligent than those foolish people at LFL and can override whatever they say by sheer weight of logic in a fictional universe!" Were they forced to surrender to you as well?


At the risk of starting another tangent, I'd ask you on the first part. We actually did manage to eventually prevail on many of our points. In my sad experience, Saxtonite fans are arguably indeed more dedicated (as in, for example, they actually look at the screen).

PS. Oh, everyone else? I would get to your answers when I get back about 5 hours from now. Really.

 

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Master_Keralys  6379 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Oct '03
39907_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/17/05 6:18pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/17/05 6:19pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
Neh, you've got to clarify that. It's not just looking at the screen. It's staring at it for hours, doing complex numerological and most particularly scalar analyses, to the point where the normal human being's eyes start to bug out, or (s)he falls alseep... What kind of genetic manipulations do they put Saxtonites through, anyway? tongue

As for the obfuscation of argument by "flaming," it's a pretty well known fact. Any course at any college that includes a discussion on argumentation will tell you that angering a person is one of the easiest ways to distract them and defeat yourself in an argument - or, as the case may be, to make them lose their side by causing them to focus on their anger instead of your point. I certainly am not suggesting that you're using it to intentionally obfuscate; that would run counter to your intent. Yet it is simple fact, not debatable, that flaming does result in net obfuscation.

Side note: you're correct in that you flame a lot less than some of the others around here. It's still too much for the tastes of the people who post on these boards, which is just as important in determining how effective your post may be. While your style may prove effect at SDN, it proves dramatically less so here because of the culturally different views of civility and general courtesy on this board as opposed to that one.

Oh, and don't worry about how long it takes, man. I'm counting on you, though, as I'm enjoying this discussion.

- Keralys

 

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GrandAdmiralJello  60052 posts
Title: Emperor
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Registered: Nov '00
44644_Imperial Laurels
Date Posted: 10/17/05 6:26pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Master_of_Ossus posted:
GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Everyone's aware of that. Unfortunately, some individuals do not believe they have anything to apologize for. Therein lies the problem.


By all means, then, quote something I said that I should apologize for but have not. If you want people to apologize, then you can at least have the decency to post what it is that they should apologize for.


I was unaware that I named you specifically. Fortunately, I've quoted a quotation of myself and we can see that this is plainly not the case.

We can also see, in fact, plenty of folks displaying comments that suggest that apologies--whatever the issue--are unimportant.

This is perhaps, I think, more important than the specific issue at hand. It has to do with the health of the board in general.

 

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Master_of_Ossus  457 posts
Registered: Mar '03
17651_ARC Commander
Date Posted: 10/17/05 6:47pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Havac posted:
It's not so much looking for an apology as a promise not to do anything requiring an apology in the future. Which, one would hope, shouldn't be too much to ask for.


I already agreed to the Terms of Service on this site. I assumed that would be sufficient, but sadly I am mistaken.

 

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Master_of_Ossus  457 posts
Registered: Mar '03
17651_ARC Commander
Date Posted: 10/17/05 6:56pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/17/05 6:59pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_of_Ossus
GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Master_of_Ossus posted:
GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Everyone's aware of that. Unfortunately, some individuals do not believe they have anything to apologize for. Therein lies the problem.


By all means, then, quote something I said that I should apologize for but have not. If you want people to apologize, then you can at least have the decency to post what it is that they should apologize for.


I was unaware that I named you specifically. Fortunately, I've quoted a quotation of myself and we can see that this is plainly not the case.


Nonetheless, the fact that I was involved in this and do not feel the need to apologize makes me part of "the problem," does it not?

GrandAdmiralJello posted:
We can also see, in fact, plenty of folks displaying comments that suggest that apologies--whatever the issue--are unimportant.

This is perhaps, I think, more important than the specific issue at hand. It has to do with the health of the board in general.


That's fair enough, but if you have a problem with particular members then do you not feel the need to name names? This is actually a fairly good demonstration of what Borleias was talking about earlier: in your effort to maintain civility by not singling out the people you have issues with, you also implicated others that you apparently did not wish to lump with them. Here, your desire to maintain as civil a tone as possible also hampered the effective communication of ideas. I would suggest that some sort of balance could be reached and not, "Do X and Y but never, ever Z." Hopefully, the "compromise" (if you will) will allow for people to communicate what they actually think but simultaneously not destroy the boards in repetitive flame-fests. If you truly did not have me in mind when you posted your statement, earlier, then you actually made the environment in this thread less civil for me by not citing individuals, because I assumed that you were attacking me. This is a common problem in boards (and, for that matter, social groups) that maintain saccharine standards.

 

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Kudzu  6437 posts
Registered: Jun '05
18640_Clone Trooper
Date Posted: 10/17/05 6:58pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/17/05 6:58pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Kudzu
Borleias posted:
Kudzu posted:
So are there Saxtonite entry exams and Saxtonite surveys? Wonder if their acceptance rate is like Harvard's...


It is not written, but I would have thought every board has an informal one, including SDN. When I first posted here, I also acted like I was passing an informal entry exam. I don't know Harvard's acceptance rate (it could be low because of the competitors, but then maybe it is not so low because only the best would try into Harvard), so I can't make a comparison.


It's in the teens, percentage-wise, IIRC.

Borleias posted:
Kudzu posted:
"Us intelligent beings known as Saxtonites, though, we're not stupid enough to be fooled by these fallacious lies. We are a more intelligent breed, and all ye who disagree with us are primitive idiots." rolling_eyes


Actually, I merely make an observation that only the most obvious flames seem to be counted in a TFNers scanner.


A TFNers? Nice new label. Last I checked, you posted on TF.N, which would make you...what? A non-TFNer?

Borleias posted:
Kudzu posted:
So if you actually do consider somebody to be a total idiot, they're fair game for flaming? Read the ToS lately? plain


Since this is a moral discussion, yes. I generally do not flame people, and when I do I flame them quite lightly. However, I consider that my style, and not because a flame necessarily obfuscates the message or whatever like some TFNers seem to think. My style also has the advantage it bumps up with the ToS less often, but honestly my style is not altered b/w boards.


"Flame them quite lightly", hm? So that just doesn't count? tired

Borleias posted:
[quote=Kudzu]"Yes! The mighty warrior Borleias has forced Master_Keralys to his knees in the glorious Battle of Fictional Numbers!"


Fictional numbers in his pond? We are allies on this point.[/quote]

Nice try. It was hyperbole. And I'll bet you knew that, too.

Borleias posted:
[quote=Kudzu]"And the Saxtonite fans are more intelligent than those foolish people at LFL and can override whatever they say by sheer weight of logic in a fictional universe!" Were they forced to surrender to you as well?


At the risk of starting another tangent, I'd ask you on the first part. We actually did manage to eventually prevail on many of our points. In my sad experience, Saxtonite fans are arguably indeed more dedicated (as in, for example, they actually look at the screen).[/quote]

Fortunately, us "TFNers" can see through these "fallacious lies". What you really mean (undeniable TRUTH!) is, "Everybody who isn't a Saxtonite is a moron who doesn't pay attention to life!"

Does that jump to an accusatory conclusion sound vaguely familiar? plain

 

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Master_Uxi  580 posts
Registered: Jun '05
14783_Jedi Council
Date Posted: 10/17/05 7:43pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Master_of_Ossus posted:
GrandAdmiralJello posted:
[quote=Master_of_Ossus][quote=GrandAdmiralJello]

[quote=GrandAdmiralJello]We can also see, in fact, plenty of folks displaying comments that suggest that apologies--whatever the issue--are unimportant.

This is perhaps, I think, more important than the specific issue at hand. It has to do with the health of the board in general.


That's fair enough, but if you have a problem with particular members then do you not feel the need to name names? This is actually a fairly good demonstration of what Borleias was talking about earlier: in your effort to maintain civility by not singling out the people you have issues with, you also implicated others that you apparently did not wish to lump with them.



Calling individuals out would certainly only lead to an escalation. Look how defensive you are in thinking he was even talking about you to begin with. Seeing your response, I would imagine your reaction to being named would have been worse rather than if others had been named. The fact that you're openly derisive about the possibility of Karen's return is what demonstrates the problem this thread was meant to avoid, not your conduct during the GAR thread, which I thought proper for the most part (even if a tad obstinate). While I myself thought you provided some good points, you've apparently taken this far too personally, much less seriously. Note that I haven't, nor do I care to, see what exactly transpired on Karen's blog. Do you think so highly of yourself that you think that if the choice was between having you on the board versus Karen that you would be chosen by the majority, much less the powers that be?


Master_of_Ossus posted:
[quote=GrandAdmiralJello]
Here, your desire to maintain as civil a tone as possible also hampered the effective communication of ideas. I would suggest that some sort of balance could be reached and not, "Do X and Y but never, ever Z." Hopefully, the "compromise" (if you will) will allow for people to communicate what they actually think but simultaneously not destroy the boards in repetitive flame-fests. If you truly did not have me in mind when you posted your statement, earlier, then you actually made the environment in this thread less civil for me by not citing individuals, because I assumed that you were attacking me. This is a common problem in boards (and, for that matter, social groups) that maintain saccharine standards.


GAJ spoke in discrete and vague terms. The only one who made you an issue in this thread was YOU. Catering to the overdefensiveness of random uknown people on the Internet who might unknowingly take offense certainly sounds like a losing proposition.

It would seem that the only possibilities we're left with are either not having open VIPs or having any interaction heavily moderated. I'd much rather have the VIPs in an open discussion (even KJA and the other poorer authors of the Bantam line), but it's definitely sad that it's come to this.

 

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