Author Topic: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 10/18/05 1:59pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
FTeik posted:
Perhaps they value substance more than style?
You're actually conflating substance with a right to ruthlessly disparage anyone who disagrees with you?

That's just not cricket, old boy.

FTeik posted:
And as already said, nobody is forced to go there.
Immaterial. We're using it as an example of what forum discourse should not be like.

FTeik posted:
On purpose. We had to live with 120 kilometers for DeathStar1, 160 kilometers for DS2, an eight kilometer long Executor and those domes atop the bridge-tower being shield-generators for twenty years or longer WHEN already back in 1983 it was clear from interviews, production-notes and so on how things really were.
My point being, of course, that your use of the word "corruption" among other things, seems to belie a puritanical urge with regards to the definitions of your beliefs concerning the matter at hand.

You didn't even had to be an employee of LFL or one of their licencees to get your hand on that material. It were ordinary fans, who found those materials and used them for analysis.

FTeik posted:
I see you failed to comment on the "ripped out trachea" or the new curses in Mandalorian. Nice double-standard you have here.
*sigh*

The fact that you react so poorly to that would be a good indication of some immaturity on your part, if nothing else.

FTeik posted:
Speaking for myself i'm less angry about the 3million-clone number, but how the authors first tried to justify it and then, when that didn't work tried to put the fans into the corner of the obsessive fanatic sitting in his parents cellar, who has no idea about "expert-territory" or real life or the starving children in africa.
Speaking for myself, I'm of the opinion that Karen's "real life" comments were entirely justified.

FTeik posted:
Nice try again: If Karen is so good at giving out, why is she so bad at taking in?

And since we are at it, why do you think that five posts by five different people are different from a similar post by Karen?
Simply attempting to divert attention away from your own bad behaviour. Whether you're right or not, I've got no sympathy for this sort of obsessive number-crunching replete with demeaning comments and insults directed at the intelligence of the OpFor.

 

-----signature-----
Fey'la was right! Bring Asyr Sei'lar to justice!
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
starkiller721  106 posts
Registered: Mar '05
24055_Anakin<br>Leading Clones
Date Posted: 10/18/05 2:20pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Personnaly I feel that whatever the reason for ms.traviss leaving it has hurt the community. I personnaly liked having authour interaction but now as proven in a movie we all know and love the actions of the few have hurt the many. So I am asking Karen if your reading this to come back for the sake of the many that enjoyed the interaction. The few should feel ashamed of themselves and apoligize to the many for causing the loss of one of the greatest authors to ever grace the boards.

 

-----signature-----
Starcraft Gateway: EAST ID: Starkiller721
What do you fear ??
www.myspace.com/starkiller721
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Commander5052  3504 posts
Registered: Aug '05
45237_Mando'ade
Date Posted: 10/18/05 2:23pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Starkiller, if anyone has done anything to Karen, I hope they feel guilty.
Thing is, we've found no evidence.
If my fellow Fandos, or anyone, have any evidence, please present it.

 

-----signature-----
Honored recepient of Thrawn McEwok's Bronze Thranta™
flag A Liberal and proud of it flag
"Politics is simply the continuation of war by other means."
--Mandalore the Ultimate
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Master_Keralys  6379 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Oct '03
39907_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 10/18/05 2:36pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/18/05 2:37pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
There is none. I don't know how many times I've repeated that lately, but there is none - what little bit there might have been was completely destroyed by the overzealous mods at TOS. It's a sad state of affairs. Moreover, I don't think there was terribly much to begin with - anything that was said in the vein of flaming was said at other places, where she (as far as we know) does NOT go. So that line is worth dropping.

But more than that is the realization that Karen was not driven away by flaming. She may have chosen to prolong her staying away because of how heated things have been, and I think all of us who've interacted with her know that she would have no desire to be caught in the middle of these kinds of discussions, much less to have people attempt to use her as a pawn, as some undoubtedly would. If I were her, I'd stay clear till this blew over and everyone caught their breaths... then come back and act like nothing ever happened - if someone brings it up, say, "Yeah, hey, sorry that caused such a mess around here," or something to that effect, and let it go at that.

I think there's a general consensus at this point that nothing was done to attack her. And in fact, Havac never said that anything was done wrong - just that he wanted to clean up the way the boards became after she left, so that if she did want to come back, she could do so without it being such a madhouse.

With that perspective on things, is this a "treaty" that everyone can put their names to?

- Keralys

 

-----signature-----
God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself.
The craziest story ever told.
The truest.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
sidious618  11601 posts
Registered: Apr '03
8059_Qui-Gon Jinn
Date Posted: 10/18/05 3:04pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct

Dude, did you completely ignore what's just been said? That's not what seems to have happened, at all.

I'm going to let everyone here in on a big secret that's gotten lost in all of the finger-pointing:

NO ONE FLAMED KAREN TRAVISS.

If you disagree with that statement, then quote someone flaming her on TFN. Numerous attempts to find flames on this board have failed, which leads me to the conclusion I reached above.

Now if we can all stop speculating about what happened in the Study with Colonel Mustard and the Candlestick we can get back to productive and factually accurate discourse.


Your post there is, at the least, rather rude, so that makes me skceptical of your viewpoint. Also, I looked over Karen's posts and none of them were at all rude. I've critqued her novel "City of Pearl" and she had no problem with it so I doubt she's flipping out over you disagreeing with her. It's how you disagreed with her.

 

-----signature-----
But in purple, I'm stunning!- Londo Mollari, Babylon 5
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 10/18/05 3:09pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
sidious618 posted:
I doubt she's flipping out over you disagreeing with her. It's how you disagreed with her.
Exactly.

 

-----signature-----
Fey'la was right! Bring Asyr Sei'lar to justice!
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Darth_Guy  54007 posts
Registered: Aug '02
17265_Lumpy
Date Posted: 10/18/05 3:10pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
clown

 

-----signature-----
Perhaps I'll breed some sort of albino shouting gorilla.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
FTeik  4074 posts
Registered: Nov '00
39843_Palpatine
Date Posted: 10/18/05 3:18pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
sidious618 posted:

Dude, did you completely ignore what's just been said? That's not what seems to have happened, at all.

I'm going to let everyone here in on a big secret that's gotten lost in all of the finger-pointing:

NO ONE FLAMED KAREN TRAVISS.

If you disagree with that statement, then quote someone flaming her on TFN. Numerous attempts to find flames on this board have failed, which leads me to the conclusion I reached above.

Now if we can all stop speculating about what happened in the Study with Colonel Mustard and the Candlestick we can get back to productive and factually accurate discourse.


Your post there is, at the least, rather rude, so that makes me skceptical of your viewpoint. Also, I looked over Karen's posts and none of them were at all rude. I've critqued her novel "City of Pearl" and she had no problem with it so I doubt she's flipping out over you disagreeing with her. It's how you disagreed with her.



Please give the guy some slack.

He is saying that for the fifth or sixth time.

And the point is, that some fans are supposed to have driven Mrs.Traviss off from TFN by being rude, not the other way around.

What was rude were the blogs on SW.Com and the banishment of some people over there.

 

-----signature-----
My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760
"In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. "
Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 10/18/05 3:36pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
FTeik posted:
What was rude were the blogs on SW.Com and the banishment of some people over there.
Not the point. We're presently discussing her departure from TF.N.

 

-----signature-----
Fey'la was right! Bring Asyr Sei'lar to justice!
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
FTeik  4074 posts
Registered: Nov '00
39843_Palpatine
Date Posted: 10/18/05 3:45pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
FTeik posted:
What was rude were the blogs on SW.Com and the banishment of some people over there.
Not the point. We're presently discussing her departure from TF.N.


So is the behavior of members of another board.

It is not the point. So don't use it in your discussion of Mrs.Traviss departure.

 

-----signature-----
My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760
"In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. "
Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Master_of_Ossus  457 posts
Registered: Mar '03
17651_ARC Commander
Date Posted: 10/18/05 3:47pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/18/05 4:51pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Master_of_Ossus
sidious618 posted:
Your post there is, at the least, rather rude, so that makes me skceptical of your viewpoint. Also, I looked over Karen's posts and none of them were at all rude.


By all means, then, find where I flamed Karen Traviss and quote it over here. Note that my ONLY contact with Ms. Traviss (even tangentially) has been in the GGAR thread, where other users have reported finding no flames and I myself found no flames having gone back over it. If you are going to declare me guilty of flaming someone, then please have the decency to quote where I have done so. I have made this request of people on this thread numerous times and to date NO ONE has come up with a single quote. Some other posters went so far as to say that they are non-existent. If you truly have evidence against me, then at the very least I have the right to see what it is.

BTW, in most civilized societies it is considered extremely rude to completely ignore someone after they have repeatedly made a point. It is also extremely rude not to respond to their public arguments at all but to restate an argument that has already been debunked by the other person without even attempting to refute their arguments.

In all honesty, if you don't consider this:

Karen Traviss posted:
Hear what the man said. Strategic targets. You should check out the kill ratios of special forces even in the real world.


To be rude, then I'm rather skeptical you can claim anything said to Karen was rude at all. Her tone was IMO condescending (no one should be assumed incapable of remembering a reply two posts prior, and it's rather degrading to assume that someone else has no knowledge of military matters), but if you give her a pass then what in that discussion was worse than what she said?

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
ywingempress  135 posts
Registered: Sep '03
40306_Clone Trooper Republic Commandos Scorch + Fixer
Date Posted: 10/18/05 4:06pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/18/05 4:07pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ywingempress
Master_of_Ossus posted:
I will quote one of the statements that was deleted (but which I happened to save). I have it on good authority that it was this user's ONLY post in the whole affair, and it must have been sufficient to have gotten him banned from a service he paid to use. Thus, this is a good measuring stick to use when attempting to describe the appropriateness of the response on SW.com. Please, point out the flames in it (he's responding to Ms. Traviss' blog):

I saw that one too, and while I think the poster grossly misread Karen's blog entry (I and another person pointed that out on the same thread) and probably should have looked at what was actually being said instead of what they expected to be said, I wouldn't call it an overt flame. I didn't save any of the others I saw though. And I don't think SW.com's policy of banning accounts makes any difference here... when determining flames, I go by message content, not whether someone was banned.

Master_of_Ossus posted:
ywingempress posted:
Of course, it doesn't matter at all where she was flamed, or even if. What matters is Karen doesn't feel comfortable posting here anymore... we don't know all the details, just that fact.


Do we even know "that fact?" Has she ever said she's uncomfortable posting here because of this incident?

That could be supposition on my part, but I don't believe so. We know that: a) she does not post here anymore, and b) she says is because she was flamed. We also know that the GGAR thread was extremely heated and a lot of people here were uncomfortable with it (including myself). From her blog entries, we know Karen doesn't like it when people get so intense in their arguments that they resort to insults (and while the GGAR thread didn't insult the authors so much, there were plenty of personal insults to other posters). Now the fact that she posts regularly in at least three other communities makes me wonder, why won't she post here? I don't think it's a stretch to say that the two are related. Why would she post elsewhere and not here if she's perfectly comfortable?

[Disclaimer: Personal Opinion!] I think Karen saw potential for bad things here at TFN, rather than real bad things. Perhaps she was afraid that even if she stayed out of the GGAR thread, a few angry and emotionally charged posters would harrass her in other threads. People will go where the 'action' is. I mean, look how quickly a bunch of the regulars from the GGAR thread popped up in the ARC thread when the topic of Karen leaving first came up. They descended like vultures. It quickly became an argument between the ARC topic regulars, and a bunch of people who have rarely or never posted there. Thankfully, that's all deleted now. [/Disclaimer]

I also love how everyone's assuming that because Karen and Ryan don't post somewhere, they haven't seen it. Um, that other forum thread that was linked a while back? That was public. It's not a private forum. It's very likely they have indeed read that. (In fact, I remember Karen mentioned in one of her blog entries about how Ryan's getting flamed worse than her, and I hadn't seen any flaming of specifically Ryan until I saw that thread. Ouch, nasty.) Flaming to someone's back or face doesn't matter - it's still flaming. And regardless of where it happens, it's gotta make someone think twice before posting anything anywhere (at least publicly). Because whatever they write will no doubt be picked apart, mocked, spit on, and insulted.

I'm probably the only one who sees it this way, but I also think there's a different standard for commenting on a public forum vs. on someone's personal blog or website. Someone's site is their own space, and I'd hold commenters to a higher standard there. For example, if someone wrote a blog entry about how they love Bush as president, I think it would be extremely rude and uncalled-for to comment "Bush sucks". But the same post in a political discussion on a forum has a different vibe - it's publicly owned space (well, moreso than one person's blog, certainly), and everyone has a right to their opinion. Flaming someone in the comments of their own blog or by email should never happen. It's their space. If someone was even just rude to me on any of my blogs, I'd have no issue banning them, period. I don't want that in my space, and it's up to me what goes and what doesn't.

As an aside, I can't believe I'm getting dragged into this... unless someone specifically comments on my post, I'm out. Have fun, guys. wink

 

-----signature-----
[- Amy -]
RepCom Website: http://clonecommandos.net
Star Wars Journal: http://order66.livejournal.com
"A well-built sniper rifle is a beautiful thing. Ours has two separate
levels of zoom: up-close-and-personal and hello-you're-dead." -- Sev
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Master_of_Ossus  457 posts
Registered: Mar '03
17651_ARC Commander
Date Posted: 10/18/05 4:49pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/18/05 5:50pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Master_of_Ossus
ywingempress posted:
I saw that one too, and while I think the poster grossly misread Karen's blog entry (I and another person pointed that out on the same thread) and probably should have looked at what was actually being said instead of what they expected to be said, I wouldn't call it an overt flame. I didn't save any of the others I saw though.


Nor did I. But you'll forgive me for being skeptical: if this is the level of "flaming" that mandates DELETIONS of posts on SW.com, then I'm not sure I can buy the argument that all of these mysterious flames vanished. I certainly don't consciously remember seeing anything worse than the one I quoted above.

ywingempress posted:
And I don't think SW.com's policy of banning accounts makes any difference here... when determining flames, I go by message content, not whether someone was banned.


Nor do I, which is why I find it so outrageous that people would get banned from a service they paid for as a result of posting such innocuous things as the message I quoted. That is only more true because the person in question invited others to flame her.

Master_of_Ossus posted:
That could be supposition on my part, but I don't believe so. We know that: a) she does not post here anymore, and b) she says is because she was flamed.


Where, though, did she say she wasn't posting here because she was flamed? I haven't seen this statement.

ywingempress posted:
We also know that the GGAR thread was extremely heated and a lot of people here were uncomfortable with it (including myself). From her blog entries, we know Karen doesn't like it when people get so intense in their arguments that they resort to insults (and while the GGAR thread didn't insult the authors so much, there were plenty of personal insults to other posters).


Yet she invited people to flame her.

ywingempress posted:
Now the fact that she posts regularly in at least three other communities makes me wonder, why won't she post here? I don't think it's a stretch to say that the two are related. Why would she post elsewhere and not here if she's perfectly comfortable?


I'm not sure, but I can tell you that it doesn't make any sense from an observer's perspective for someone to post on one board where she is allegedly being flamed (SW.com) yet not on another one where she is not being flamed (TFN) if she left the latter only because she was flamed. Hence my skepticism. If Karen did indeed leave because she was flamed, then: 1. Where are these flames? 2. Why would she continue posting on SW.com, telling people to flame her?

ywingempress posted:
[Disclaimer: Personal Opinion!] I think Karen saw potential for bad things here at TFN, rather than real bad things. Perhaps she was afraid that even if she stayed out of the GGAR thread, a few angry and emotionally charged posters would harrass her in other threads. People will go where the 'action' is. I mean, look how quickly a bunch of the regulars from the GGAR thread popped up in the ARC thread when the topic of Karen leaving first came up. They descended like vultures. It quickly became an argument between the ARC topic regulars, and a bunch of people who have rarely or never posted there. Thankfully, that's all deleted now. [/Disclaimer]


That's fair enough, but if that was true then why would she bait people into allegedly flaming her on SW.com?

ywingempress posted:
I also love how everyone's assuming that because Karen and Ryan don't post somewhere, they haven't seen it. Um, that other forum thread that was linked a while back? That was public. It's not a private forum. It's very likely they have indeed read that. (In fact, I remember Karen mentioned in one of her blog entries about how Ryan's getting flamed worse than her, and I hadn't seen any flaming of specifically Ryan until I saw that thread. Ouch, nasty.) Flaming to someone's back or face doesn't matter - it's still flaming.


I disagree entirely. Flaming someone on a public forum is public. If anyone has anything to say about that on a public forum, they are free to sign up and post. Posting in a medium that someone else has to PAY in order to respond to (after beginning the debate in a public forum) is disingenuous, and it's made all the more egregious by the fact that she invited people to flame her and then played the "wounded innocence" card when they allegedly took her up on her offer (even though no such flames are known to exist), resulting in the banning of people from the service they paid for.

ywingempress posted:
And regardless of where it happens, it's gotta make someone think twice before posting anything anywhere (at least publicly). Because whatever they write will no doubt be picked apart, mocked, spit on, and insulted.


Yet you state that she still posts on several public forums. You'll forgive my skepticism, but I don't think that Ms. Traviss is this inconsistent.

ywingempress posted:
I'm probably the only one who sees it this way, but I also think there's a different standard for commenting on a public forum vs. on someone's personal blog or website. Someone's site is their own space, and I'd hold commenters to a higher standard there. For example, if someone wrote a blog entry about how they love Bush as president, I think it would be extremely rude and uncalled-for to comment "Bush sucks". But the same post in a political discussion on a forum has a different vibe - it's publicly owned space (well, moreso than one person's blog, certainly), and everyone has a right to their opinion. Flaming someone in the comments of their own blog or by email should never happen. It's their space. If someone was even just rude to me on any of my blogs, I'd have no issue banning them, period. I don't want that in my space, and it's up to me what goes and what doesn't.


I agree with you that a person has the right to establish their own standards on their blog or anything that is their personal space, but if you told people to do something I would think less of you if you then banned them for doing it. If I invited you into my house and told them to go ahead and paint over a wall, would it not seem strange if I then had you charged for vandalism?

In regards to your comment that "[f]laming someone in the comments of their own blog or by email should never happen," I tend to agree, nor would I have any problems with banning people who did so. But there WAS NO FLAMING GOING ON. The emperor has no clothes. And, incidentally, while I agree with you that people should set their own standards of conduct on their blogs, SW.com doesn't. That's why administrators and moderators (that, allegedly, were not Ms. Traviss) stepped in to ban the "offending" members. The mods and admins were the ones there that dictated what was okay, ignoring the fact that Ms. Traviss had told them to go ahead and flame her because they felt they knew what was better for Ms. Traviss than she did.

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
sidious618  11601 posts
Registered: Apr '03
8059_Qui-Gon Jinn
Date Posted: 10/18/05 4:55pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Her tone was IMO condescending

That's impossible because you can't hear her speak.

I'd like a link to the infamous "blog" post.

 

-----signature-----
But in purple, I'm stunning!- Londo Mollari, Babylon 5
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Master_of_Ossus  457 posts
Registered: Mar '03
17651_ARC Commander
Date Posted: 10/18/05 5:00pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/18/05 5:07pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Master_of_Ossus
sidious618 posted:
Her tone was IMO condescending

That's impossible because you can't hear her speak.


People can have tones in their writing.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tone posted:
#4 Manner of expression in speech or writing: took an angry tone with the reporters.


Emphasis mine.

It is my opinion that the tone Karen took in that post was condescending, and I already explained my reasoning for that. If you think it reasonable to assume that people must be reminded of what someone else said two posts previously (and before even giving the other person a chance to respond to the original post), then that is your opinion and we'll have to agree to disagree.

If you think that Karen was treated in a manner that was worse than what she said (which, in your opinion, may not have been bad at all), then by all means quote the offending posts here so that they may be examined.

sidious posted:
I'd like a link to the infamous "blog" post.


http://blogs.starwars.com/karentraviss/28/comments

Karen Traviss posted:
So flame me - although you'll have a hard job hitting the target, because I'll shove Ryan Kaufman in the way of the jet

 

Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History