Author Topic: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
The2ndQuest  40066 posts
Title: Manager:
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Registered: Jan '00
49624_H234: Samus
Date Posted: 10/15/05 10:12pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
My Karen hug hugs

 

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MasterControlProgram  455 posts
Registered: Dec '03
40090_Han Solo<br>WANTED
Date Posted: 10/16/05 1:11am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Here's an idea: why not treat VIPs like anyone else, instead of paragons of virtue? Being a VIP doesn't automatically instill incredible insight and infallibility to that person.

If the sole reason for these people to interact with "their public" here is to just soak up "You rock!" "You are my favo-wit author!" "I'm sending you a hug!" then call it what it is: fan worship. Not "discussion".

 

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Sinrebirth  18923 posts
Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC
Registered: Nov '04
47748_Dath Vectivus
Date Posted: 10/16/05 1:22am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
You do have a point, MCP, but from a cynical point of view.

In turn, was all her interaction fake and aimed to derive worship? No. Did Karen have to go on a limb and work on numerous projects for us? No.

I really don't care how the sides square up, really.

*shakes head*

I lose the Net for a week, and we lose Karen, and we can't even agree that its our fault...

I'll sign anything if it helps right this wrong, Havac. Count me in.

 

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Cil  222 posts
Registered: Apr '05
6507_Mara Jade
Date Posted: 10/16/05 1:42am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Now Hearing of this is Just sad...

One of the first rule's of Most message boards is not to flame other user's, especially the Mod's and The VIP's.

Remenber the VIP's don't have to post here or on any other message board for that matter (Just Like Everyone else), so treat them with respect (It's doesn't matter if you like their work or not).

Anyone reponsable for forcing one of these people to leave, should be given a flying lesson, and be forced to write a Letter, to say sorry to all the other users and the VIP in question... Before they can even dream of coming back.

 

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FTeik  4041 posts
Registered: Nov '00
39843_Palpatine
Date Posted: 10/16/05 3:59am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Excuse me?

Some fans seem to have forgotten how the entire affair really happened.

Not only the so-called Saxtonites had problems with the 3 million-number for the GAR.

When those responsible were approached on the subject in a civil and reasonable way, what was the answer? That we were looking at an army at the beginning at the war or just the core of a much larger force?

No.

What we got were answers like "They're all SpecialForces." or "Beware of the awesomeness of the clone-trooper."

It was only when we called them on their claims, that Mr.Kaufmann and Mrs.Traviss vanished from this board to re-appear on sw.com (which is no real discussion-board).

There we've got to read blogs like "Numbers don't matter, it is just a myth." and "Get a life and think of the poor people in africa".

What are we supposed to think of people, who "defend" their work this way and in essence tell us, that "it doesn't matter"?


One last thing i want to add about the so-called "Saxtonites":

Compared to the critic, flames and bashing Curtis Saxton and his work had to take on this board (and where were the moderators and - aside from a small minority - the fans to defend him?) every other VIP is touched with satin-gloves. Speak about double-standards.

 

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Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 10/16/05 4:47am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/16/05 4:49am (1 edits total) Edited By: Quiet_Mandalorian
shame_on_you
Leto II posted:
This could only be regarded as a public service; but I would consent to signing my name to such a petition *ONLY* if Excellence and Quiet_Mandalorian receive extra-special consideration. Something, as they say, suitably long and lingering, that involves boiling oil, flaying, rock salt, and perhaps condemnation to a cell in solitary confinement, alone with a TV set playing seaQuest DSV episodes over and over...
Try it, and I promise to use you as the vict- I mean assistant, for a demonstration of what the Blood Eagle felt like. whistling

FTeik posted:
Excuse me?

Some fans seem to have forgotten how the entire affair really happened.

Not only the so-called Saxtonites had problems with the 3 million-number for the GAR.

When those responsible were approached on the subject in a civil and reasonable way, what was the answer? That we were looking at an army at the beginning at the war or just the core of a much larger force?
And here's where the flame-war flares up again. rolling_eyes

 

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Excellence  24488 posts
Registered: Jul '02
6338_New Republic Seal
Date Posted: 10/16/05 5:26am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/16/05 5:34am (2 edits total) Edited By: Excellence

shock You wouldn't dare make me watch SeaQuest DSV, Leto! You don't understand how deep I buried that in my subconsciousness. The psychosomatic reaction to such an awakening would bomb as much as The Mummy Returns, you must believe me.

 

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FTeik  4041 posts
Registered: Nov '00
39843_Palpatine
Date Posted: 10/16/05 5:32am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
FTeik posted:
Excuse me?

Some fans seem to have forgotten how the entire affair really happened.

Not only the so-called Saxtonites had problems with the 3 million-number for the GAR.

When those responsible were approached on the subject in a civil and reasonable way, what was the answer? That we were looking at an army at the beginning at the war or just the core of a much larger force?
And here's where the flame-war flares up again. rolling_eyes



Flaring up a flame-war? By just pointing out, what went wrong in the first place?

Sorry, but i couldn't join the "please come back, we'll be nice"-crowd. It would have been dishonest and have done nobody a favor. You can't solve a problem, if you don't adress it first.

 

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My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760
"In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. "
Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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DarthBoba  32895 posts
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 10/16/05 5:36am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
^Rolleyes.

Sure, I'll sign it. Even though I don't particularly belong to either group.

 

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AdmiralWesJanson  4693 posts
Registered: May '05
41081_Kuat Drive Yards Insignia
Date Posted: 10/16/05 5:36am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Leto, you have copies of SeaquestDSV? I've been trying to find some... at least the first 2 seasons of the original.

 

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Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 10/16/05 5:48am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/16/05 5:48am (1 edits total) Edited By: Quiet_Mandalorian
FTeik posted:
Flaring up a flame-war? By just pointing out, what went wrong in the first place?

Sorry, but i couldn't join the "please come back, we'll be nice"-crowd. It would have been dishonest and have done nobody a favor. You can't solve a problem, if you don't adress it first.
*sigh*

If you're not going to agree to it, then I think it would probably be better off for everyone concerned if you just didn't post in the thread, or at least, save the "three million" stuff for another thread. You keep up in the same vein as you've been writing in, and it seems fairly safe to assume that it'll boil over into another grudge match.

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 10/16/05 5:49am Subject: PGC: My view (long)
GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Oh, now this is unfair. Mitthy's post gets the top of the page and my thoughtful one gets the bottom of the last page. tongue


I don't agree. In my experience, IGN's buggy post-referencing means that you are better off as the last post on a page. When you are the first post, the link takes you to the page before, and it took me time before I realized that this was the system's habit and went to the next page.

Time to write something that's a little different from what has been written so far.

I honestly don't know what's the point of so many posts, seeing most of them say the exact same thing, which I'd get to in a few minutes...

Cil posted:
One of the first rule's of Most message boards is not to flame other user's, especially the Mod's and The VIP's.


I'd take this as a representative of this board's general view of flaming, which seems to be categorized as more important than having something useful to contribute. This is an attitude I genuinely do not understand.

The better the mod, the less you have to refrain in your engaging him. A good mod is one that most people do not remember is a mod. Good moderation should be nearly invisible to the average member, and when they actually do ban someone, his crime is clear and the regulars (at least) are satisfied he's a worthless turd (not rude, not made a mistake, I mean a total "turd"). Better yet is if the regulars want the troll kicked out too - if all that met with the troll is satisfied that the true miracle is that he has the IQ to Type. Lack of satisfaction in this is reflected in fear of the denizens to express themselves freely.

Arguably, cultured posts of poor quality are a greater disruption to the board than flames in responses of higher quality. The former is, in my experience, the true provocation for flames that follow, which is actually mostly related to disbelief in the flamer's mind anyone can be that stupid. The latter is actually an attempt to restore order to the board.

Since a mod's duty is to ensure the smooth functioning of the board, the former should be given more attention than the latter. You can ignore flames or flame back if that's your style. A post of poor quality is arguably another matter. If you intend to salvage that poster as a useful contributor or prevent his idea from contaminating impressionable newbies, you have to try to correct that idea. The response itself could not almost by principle be genuinely high quality discussion because all it can do is correct a stupid misperception, rather than generating a truly new insight. Truly new insights, in my experience, are mostly obtained by high quality mutual exchange. This is not high quality because it is flame free, but flame free because it is high quality, so no one deserved to be flamed, even though the two sides might believe deeply in their viewpoints and don't agree.

The unfortunate thing about flames is that they generally are easy to identify. As opposed to poor posts or more veiled insults, which sometimes take a bit of knowledge and good judgment. That's why IMO the worst mods attack and ban for poking him the wrong way, the next worst do so for flames, and the good ones for your content. Critiquing boardmates follow similar rules.

People that had PMs with me might have already read something of similar theme to the above. So now, let's get to VIPs. It seems to me that what you are proposing is a promise of Special, Additional Protection for VIPs. While I'd use Traviss as an example, I'd try to talk about VIPs in general.

Maybe I'm a cynic, but IMO, a VIP can join any particular message board for two reasons. One is of course for private reasons - for his own fun. In which case one wonders why should he be treated any differently from the rest?

The other is as part of the Reconnaissance that's part of an author's professional duties - the pre-Reconnaissance and the post-Reconnaissance. This part of pre-Reconnaissance is to analyze fan opinions, and includes such things as dropping hints. If your fans are particularly skilled and honest, you can actually make use of their knowledge as well as their opinion to adjust your work. In our current example, maybe if Traviss had done part of her reconnaissance with the "Saxtonites", she might have been able to avoid this one, or at least realize that she will pay a deep, heavy price in her support ratings (AFAIK, the Saxtonite community was actually supportive of her work right up until this) in our portion of the community and even outside, and for no positive gain (as far as I can tell, everyone was actually upset to a greater or lesser extent by the "3 million", and the only debate is whether it should be thrown out as trash.)

To ensure the successful conduct of such Reconnaissance, honesty is absolutely vital. If we truly like Star Wars and wish it for the better, if we are truly her friends and if we truly respect her integrity and personal qualities, we should not be afraid to "let her have it". If we just want to keep VIPs so our board can take pride of itself, then sure, we can be "polite".

I suppose the function of the Post-Reconnaissance is pretty much self-explanatory. Regardless of what some of you think, she most definitely gained a lot of data from that reconnaissance, all right... the only thing is if she learns. I think that there is no better sign of how much you like an author's works in general than to critique it as mercilessly as you justifiably can, question all that is not clear to you, and give plenty of post-Reconnaissance data to the author so he can do better next time.

Personal Anecdote posted:
Back in my ASVS days, they make FanFics (now this is really done purely for enjoyment, because they definitely get no money for this). Most people write one liners like "Bravo!" At most they might ask one/two questions on something they did not understand. I never saw the point of burdening the server with such posts. Instead, if I liked the story, I would try to pick it apart line by line - I try to praise too, but generally the critiques far outnumber the praises and often the critique (counting quoted text) wound up being longer than the source chapter! Sometimes even I know I'm repeating things on much the same theme. But I still continue.

Sometimes people actually object for similar reasons you do, but about this I'm quite adamant. Because I actually love their work for all the critiques I'm writing and if even one out of my 100 critiques somehow made it into the story and improved it, then all that typing was worth it. Besides, it let's them know I've actually read their stuff in reasonable detail - you don't get that from "Bravo" posts. I know when I lose all hope in them ... I'd just stop reading, and they'd never get one of the "annoying" critiques from me again ... And I think all this is just as true for works that had to be paid for...


I'd also contend that during the period when they were actually in the original I84 thread, the criticisms were actually quite polite. In fact, one can argue the rude guys were Kaufman and Traviss. They insult us. Consider the experience of poor Qu_Klanni. He sees a problem and makes his move. His post is short, concise, reasoned and polite. Also, he isn't a Saxtonite that I know of.

Kaufman's turn. He actually just borrows the answer of the guy above him. He accuses Qu_Klaani for not reading his article in depth. Cool, he insulted the reader on the first pass, actually thinking the problem is with his reader not having read his article. If this guy were a Customer Service Rep, he'd be out on his butt in the first turn. Still, he at least tries to answer points after that, albeit a little condescendingly. Still, he's nothing compard to Traviss. Before Qu_Klaani had a chance to demolish Kaufman's pontoon, Traviss borrowed its strength - she made no real rebuttal of her own at all:

Traviss posted:
Hear what the man said. Strategic targets. You should check out the kill ratios of special forces even in the real world.


Can you just hear the contempt for the customers? One would think she could at least wait for Qu_Klaani's response and then make a rebuttal that's actually her own. The "official" Saxtonite team hadn't even put their oar in the water yet, so all we are talking here are nice, polite TFNers like poor Qu_Klaani. Traviss actually vultured. As for her next response, one wonders whether she thinks we are idiots or whether she herself is a dolt.

Consider this.

KarenTraviss posted:
3. And...it's Star Wars! Chaps, when you can accept that a bunch of aliens can breed humans to order and grow them to maturity in ten years...that a handful of Jedi can take on armies with magic and a fluorescent light fitting...when you don't worry about the total absence of time dilation when ships move light years between worlds...how can you argue about real numbers?


Does she really think that when one is being attacked on realism grounds, saying something like this would do anything but infuriate your opposition? If she thinks we'd accept this, she thinks we are idiots. If she just threw this out, she's a dolt. Either way it wasn't good. Even then, they weren't flamed. We know that TFN values its VIPs. More importantly, we still had hope for those people too. By the 6th page (about 300 posts in), they basically had fled. About two days later, Traviss fled from the board. In fact, we barely had time to put our oars into the water before she fled.

I hadn't followed every post, but in general, the true contempt for Traviss only showed after she fled. Here we link to FTeik's account. You just don't escape to where we can't chase you and keep sniping at us with contempt and expect to get away with it. If you treat us with contempt from your hidey hole, why do you deserve our respect (or even our tolerance). Furthermore, we lost hope. Perhaps Traviss does not have to worry next time; No Saxtonites would bother to be there to give post-Reconnaissance data to their work - what good would it do?

While they certainly don't have to participate in boards, I do not believe we owe them anything. If anything, they owe us, because we buy their stuff and their actions influence the Star Wars universe that we enjoy so much. They are either having fun or conducting reconnaissance. For the latter, the action of "making the board safe" is actually highly detrimental to that part of their job, and if they are just doing the former (again) why do they deserve special treatment? Do they still deserve special treatment (or even the civility you guys want from us for normal members) when they treat their customers (and fellow board members) with such contempt? If we are "not the most agreeable people", Why aren't they? Is it because they hadn't actually said the word "idiot" out loud? Are these the "very friendly" authors some of you are claiming to miss? Do "very friendly authors" start off assuming their readers have not read the text or that they have to be told to "hear the man" - assuming all the problems are with us?

In the end, I'd just mention that There are Few Better Friends than Those Willing to Tell you Unpleasant Truths in an Unpleasant Manner.

 

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Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 10/16/05 5:54am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/16/05 5:57am (2 edits total) Edited By: Quiet_Mandalorian
Borleias posted:
They insult us. Consider the experience of poor Qu_Klanni.

His post is short, concise, reasoned and polite.
Rather odd contrast to his usual manner.

Ryan_Kaufman posted:
Qu_Klaani posted:
Its still noway near enough, unless they deployed a hanful of clones to each planet and hoped they'd be enough to contain tens of thousands of droids.


I'm sure they deployed their forces more sensibly than that. You don't try for even coverage with any army. "Ten soldiers per square foot", or something.

You deploy and take worlds with sufficiently-sized forces. Key worlds hold other systems in check. There is no need to deploy forces on every single planet.

Take Qiilura, for example. A squad of RCs ostensibly took that planet single-handed. But there was no need for them to traverse the entire globe to do so.

Remember: key personnel in key locations, supported by covert anti-support ops.
Ryan here seems to have provided a reasonable explanation, to my mind anyway.

Oh Fierfek. It's starting again....

 

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Borleias  918 posts
Registered: Dec '03
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 10/16/05 6:26am Subject: PGC: Kaufman with Quiet
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
Rather odd contrast to his usual manner.


Are you trying to tell me that Qu Klaani is not normally that reasoned? It shouldn't matter. This particular post was reasonably written. There is no reason to treat it lightly.

Quiet posted:
Ryan here seems to have provided a reasonable explanation, to my mind anyway.


1) I suppose you know what I actually thought of it, but since he at least tried, that actually made it into the "Still, he at least tries to answer points after that, albeit a little condescendingly." part
2) Qu Klaani's answer there, if you are complaining, is short but is adequate. Kaufman's answer is the "uber-clone" excuse, which really merits only this kind of sentence as a response.
3) The last sentence is why I thought it was a little condescending. Look at it again. Get just a small feeling of talking to a child?

As to whether this would blow back up into a war in this thread, this is up to you guys. I'm trying to emphasize on the authors involved, not the debate itself (see #1). FTeik's emphasis is also, as far as I can see, on the authors, not on the debate in an attempt to keep it from flaring up.

By the way, since I was complaining more about Traviss there (and we are talking about Traviss mostly, which is why she was quoted and not just linked), what do you think of the rest of the post?

 

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Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 10/16/05 6:52am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
Borleias posted:
Are you trying to tell me that Qu Klaani is not normally that reasoned?
No, there's nothing wrong with the post, it's just that he normally isn't very civil towards those who disagree with him.

Borleias posted:
The last sentence is why I thought it was a little condescending. Look at it again. Get just a small feeling of talking to a child?
Possibly, though I often have the feeling when talking to Qu Klaani (though admittedly, he was at least civil towards Ryan with regards to that particular question).

Borleias posted:
By the way, since I was complaining more about Traviss there (and we are talking about Traviss mostly, which is why she was quoted and not just linked), what do you think of the rest of the post?
Nothing about it that I find particularly unforgiveable so far as I've read yet.

 

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