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Author	Topic: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 10/17/05 8:35am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/17/05 8:53am (1 edits total) Edited By: rhonderoo
	Excellence posted: The Rhondarooian approach should be utilisied for the anti-Maraites. She's not real. Absolutely. In anything in the GFFA, even Mace vs. Sidious in ROTS. It's a ficional universe, let's not take it too seriously. It doesn't reflect well on us as a forum or as users. ywingempress posted: I think they were more disturbed that people were angry at all, let alone "infuriated"... this is all supposed to be fun and none of it is worth getting angry over, IMO. Quoted for the God's honest truth. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 10/17/05 9:00am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
	PainRack posted: I'm sorry, but the Out of Bound marker here doesn't seem to be there will be no flaming or insult or even criticism of VIPs. Instead, its seems that there should be no dissent or disagreement with VIPs, or even the mods of this forum. I should point out for the benefit of you and Borelias that as VIP, she is entitled to respect. Being a VERY IMPORTANT person affords her that right, and this has been a facet of Western society since you were born, and beyond. Karen worked damned hard in here, talking to fans as if she were a regular. That she was the subject of such abject stupidity is a disgrace; that it was over fictional numbers is simply pathetic. E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 10/17/05 9:39am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
	Like to make it utterly and absoutely clear before I even start this: Borleias, I am on your side in terms of the numbers argument, and in fact in most maxi/mini arguments. I am a "Saxtonite" in terms of my interpretation of the universe, though not in my obsession with the numbers and visual analysis. I don't have time. Borleias posted: That's OK. You are the first guy that even really tried to discuss this, instead of just repeating the positions that are all overdone by the end of the 1st page. Hogwash. I've been arguing with specific posts since page 2. Stop generalizing just because I didn't make lengthy point by point refutations of your arguments. I've been making a point out of clarifying our side's repeatedly thick-skulled misunderstandings (which I am unfortunately beginning to suspect are intentional misreadings) of the point of this thread. Borleias posted: In "Saxtonite" dominated boards like SDN, your first big post is your entrance exam. Look at the main site - it helps you prepare for it. Now try and say something semi-useful and be prepared to defend it with evidence (a real SDN test). If you pass it, you still have a few more posts on probation, but this is like 2/3rds of the test. Generally, if you make a good post at the start, you'd make it. If you don't, you may well get flamed - but showing you have the integrity to be honest; the will to stay, learn and eventually contribute; as well as having the mental flexibility to concede will also buy you points. It is a race if you keep failing as to whether you leave crying first or they send you flying from the window. Those who make through the "Flame Test" proceed to give high quality discourse. In general anyway. That's nice. It's relevant to here, HOW? These are not the same boards. Different standards of behavior are expected here. Get over it. If you like those boards better, go play on them. The general consensus on these boards is that higher standards of civility are expected and useful. So play by the rules everyone else plays by, or expect to get called on it. That's basic common sense. I personally don't think that that way of doing things is useful in the kinds of debates we have here. Those are, as you noted, Saxtonite dominated boards. These are, it is clear, a pretty even mix. You can't expect the same thing out of them. And, by the way, given the disparate interest levels, age levels, and basic information levels of people on these boards, you're an idiot if you expect people to always have something "useful" to say. Some people just like throwing their two cents worth in even if they're not as informed as everyone else. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's how they learn. Getting flamed chases them away. Please get it through your head. These boards are for fun. If you want nothing but intense flame-driven debate, go to another board. People here (except you) don't care for that style of argumentation. I may agree with most of your points, but they get lost in the flames a lot of time. Borleias posted: A mod should not be expected to be omniniscent, but this is basic stuff... Because of the enforced civility, nobody is allowed to be rude, and eventually a dark pool begins to gather at the bottom of the board. Strawman argument. No one is suggesting that we ban people for being rude, or even outright attacking of character. We're asking you to act in a more civilized manner. This whole "banstick" threat you keep seeing is nowhere present in any of the arguments presented by those of us trying to find a point of conciliation over this. In fact, we (and people like DP4M) have repeatedly noted that these fears you have are unwarranted. Borleias posted: You just said, a turd that is willing to conform to arbitary standards of conduct is more impressive to you than someone who has integrity enough to tell you all the unpleasant truths and opinions instead of hiding them behind the excuse of arbitrary standards? No, he just said that a person who has the decency to treat others in a way bespeaking his respect, even if he's ignorant and just learning, is more impressive that someone who can shout themselves blue with "good argument" but so constantly insults people that the meaning of his post gets lost on the people he's talking to. Calling someone an idiot is a good way to (a) make them angry and (b) make them forget most of the rest of the point of your post. Therefore, it drastically decreases your chances of making them listen, and it decreases the chance that they might actually learn something from your post. Borleias posted: Nevertheless, while I'd agree in our imperfect world that people who are rude do not get far, people who are incompetent shouldn't get anywhere. If they get farther ahead with their politeness than a competent that's rude, does that not suggest a fundamental flaw in our society to you? Do you want an engineer who's sole virtue is that he's polite? Strawman again. No one's suggesting that we put being nice ABOVE actually knowing what you're talking about IN TERMS OF WINNING ARGUMENTS. We're just pointing out that incivility is worse than useless, and usually hinders the cause of the person not being civil. And I fundamentally disagree with you about the place of civility in society. It serves a rather useful function in curbing the tendencies for brutality. You can pretty easily demonstrate psychologically that having to pretend to be nice actually makes you nicer if you do it for long enough. And being a jerk to someone verbally is about half a step away from being a jerk physically. Civility is essential to the proper functioning of any society. Borleias posted: A Saxtonite can in fact be most respectful when his opponent is worthy of it. When his opponent is not worthy of it, he can be rude. This ability to withhold respect is arguably an important ability. Respect is earned, not given indefinitely - that's not such a bad principle, is it? You think people earn it by phrasing their paragraphs a certain way and eliminating tough truths. We think it is earned by making logical paragraphs and having integrity. Problem with this view is that the people who get to decide who's worthy of respect and who's not are the people doing the name-calling. And you have a tendency to start calling names at anyone who maintains their position after hearing yours - in other words, anyone who disagrees with you after hearing all your reasons must be an idiot. I'll get back to this later, when responding to further points in your later post. FTeik posted: Now, if i have a justified question and i get rubbish for an answer or something of which i have evidence to the contrary or if somebody sits on the high horse and tells me to shut up, because "i'm the expert here" and if that gets so far, that the person in question runs away to a safe heaven, from where he/she can snipe un-impeded then i feel a lot of things, but certainly NOT respect. Yes, you absolutely have a right to respect. At no point did I see Karen or Ryan making "Shut up, I'm the expert here," types of comments. At no point did I observe anyone on the minimalist side of the argument making those kinds of comments. I observed a much greater preponderance of those kinds of comments coming from Saxtonites, most particularly those arguing with Thrawn McEwok on the matter. Moreover, as I have repeatedly noted, Karen's so-called "sniping" was nothing of the sort. She did not comment on the arguments, and for the kriffing last time, she did not attack either side. She said she was sick of both sides being so inflamed about it. BOTH. BOTH BOTH BOTH BOTH BOTH. Did that get it through your skull, or do I need to say it again, and maybe directly quote her a few times? Borleias posted: Agreeing to disagree is not a big part of a Saxtonite's psyche. He's not asking you to agree to disagree, he's asking you to agree to argue in a civil way without all the needless flames. How many times do I have to explain that on this thread? Borleias posted: I don't see how we're going to avoid saying that our opposition is plain dead wrong (and by impliance that the facts are behind us). It is also difficult to see how you can "respect" their rights to intepret the Star Wars canon differently. Are we supposed to respect their right to interpret Star Wars incorrectly? If it is so, no meaningful debate seems possible, and we cannot sign such a treaty. If not, then the debate is to prove their interpretation wrong and ours right (or at least ours is much more probable). How we can do that without crushing their interpretation, and thus stepping on their "right" to interpret Star Wars differently is difficult to see. This is where the issue comes in, most clearly. Havac proposed a slight standdown. He didn't propose we stop arguing. He asked that we do it in a civil way, without calling each other idiots needlessly. Why do I have a sense of deja vu writing this? It's almost like I've explained this before. You need to realize that your interpretation of Star Wars material is not the only interpretation of Star Wars material. I completely agree with almost all your interpretations, but it is NOT the only one available or valid. Star Wars is not objective reality that can be quantified and measured in the same ways that our own universe can. I think that applying our visual standards to it is an acceptable way of doing things, and the way I prefer. That does not mean it is fact. Others, like Thrawn McEwok, have made robust attempts at defending a minimalist view. I disagree with him, but he is not de facto wrong because of my methodology. Nor am I wrong because of his. It is in fact a fictional universe, and we are constrained by that. This is where you have had problems. Because as far as I can tell, you don't want a cease fire, and you'll only stop calling people idiots when they SURRENDER and agree with you. If as I believe this is the case, then you are the idiot, not the people you're insulting. If you want evidence from your own post of what I'm talking about, here ya go: [quote=Borleais]As long as Traviss doesn't make any more provocations (like ... having any delusions about how 3 million makes sense on her return)[/quote] She has every right to defend the OFFICIAL position. She has every right to not be called delusional. She has every right to post here, and defend her opinion - which is now the OFFICIAL opinion - without being called an idiot at every turn. As I said before, YOU are the idiot if you think that you're actually going to get a treaty that pretty much tells your opposition to shut up. And remember, everything I've said here, I've said as someone who agrees with you. But I think you're doing this the wrong way, and you're not going to get anywhere with the way you are doing it. I think your primary difficulty is that you can't see the biases in your own arguments for maximalism. It's not hard fact, because the only thing that is "HARD FACT" in SW is whatever GL says it is, and at the moment that's 3 million. You can think that's absurd and suggest changing it, but you can't say it's WRONG, because right now it isn't. - Keralys -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 10/17/05 9:41am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
	To answer this i simply repeat myself: FTeik posted: "Respect" and "tolerance" are a two-way-door. If i'm expected to give respect i expect to get some in return. Now, if i have a justified question and i get rubbish for an answer or something of which i have evidence to the contrary or if somebody sits on the high horse and tells me to shut up, because "i'm the expert here" and if that gets so far, that the person in question runs away to a safe heaven, from where he/she can snipe un-impeded then i feel a lot of things, but certainly NOT respect. And no, Mrs.Traviss and Mr.Kaufmann weren't flamed. They had already left the house when the discussion got hot. I also want to add (again), that the so-called VIPs aren't doing what they do for fun alone, but also for cash. In that case the cash of me and others. So what am i, when i complain: A rabbid fan or a dissatisfied customer? -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 10/17/05 9:47am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/17/05 9:48am (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
	FTeik posted: I also want to add (again), that the so-called VIPs aren't doing what they do for fun alone, but also for cash. In that case the cash of me and others. So what am i, when i complain: A rabbid fan or a dissatisfied customer? They do not post on these boards for cash. Note that anyone that's already on these boards talking with them is by the very nature of the boards already a Star Wars fan. They might get a tiny change in the amount that comes in from talking with us, but not likely. You can be a dissatisfied customer all you want. But would you expect them to be treated the same in person as they are on here? I don't think so. And let me tell you, as someone who's gotten awards for customer service, if you come in as a dissatisfied customer and are all sithy at me, your chances of getting good help go down measurably. I'll just get you through and out of my way as quickly as possible and not necessarily as best as possible. And your earlier point is exactly why I continue to point out that there was more to their leaving than just this one issue. This was the last straw, as the saying goes, but I believe Karen in particular had other reasons for choosing to leave. I'm going to ask an easy-to-answer question to the hardcore Saxtonites who refuse to sign this: Do you, or do you not, want Karen back on these boards, regardless of her stance on the three million clones issue? If you don't, then shut up and leave the rest of us to enjoy their company. Just stay out their way yourselves, and there's no problems. - Keralys -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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FTeik Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 10/17/05 10:33am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
	Master_Keralys posted: FTeik posted: I also want to add (again), that the so-called VIPs aren't doing what they do for fun alone, but also for cash. In that case the cash of me and others. So what am i, when i complain: A rabbid fan or a dissatisfied customer? They do not post on these boards for cash. Note that anyone that's already on these boards talking with them is by the very nature of the boards already a Star Wars fan. They might get a tiny change in the amount that comes in from talking with us, but not likely. You can be a dissatisfied customer all you want. But would you expect them to be treated the same in person as they are on here? I don't think so. And let me tell you, as someone who's gotten awards for customer service, if you come in as a dissatisfied customer and are all sithy at me, your chances of getting good help go down measurably. I'll just get you through and out of my way as quickly as possible and not necessarily as best as possible. But that is point. We weren't dissatisfied. Perhaps a little disappointed by what we view as an error in scale, but not dissatisfied. HardContact was one of the best SW-books i've ever read. So was the Thrawn-trilogy despite an insignificant 200 Dreadnoughts and 20,000 clones decanted every two weeks as "fate-of-the-galaxy"-deciding force. We also weren't "all sithy". You can have a look at the discussion in question through a link posted just a few posts prior. No, we stated out confusion and curiosity about an issue in a reasonable and civil manner, got sneaky or supercilious remarks and a lot of clone-trooper/SpecialForces-wanking as an answer and when we dared to bring evidence to the contrary they left. The next i know, is that Rayn Kaufmann posted a blog at the critic- and discussion-free sw.com stating "numbers don't matter, it is just the myth". Hello, if i'm only interested in the myth i don't waste time and money on a fictional order of battle. Also a lot of work went into that article, but what am i supposed to think, if one of the co-authors himself tells me "it doesn't matter". And to crown everything, this was followed by another blog complaining that we're all messed up about a fictional universe, when the real world is such a bad place, there are people in africa starving, ect. Master_Keralys posted: I'm going to ask an easy-to-answer question to the hardcore Saxtonites who refuse to sign this: Do you, or do you not, want Karen back on these boards, regardless of her stance on the three million clones issue? If you don't, then shut up and leave the rest of us to enjoy their company. Just stay out their way yourselves, and there's no problems. - Keralys If Karen returns fine. If she doesn't, fine too. If the disagreement about the 3-million-clones number is the only reason somebody is going to stay away from this board i'm sorry for the person in question, but not much. I just see no need to bend over or to give somebody a special status. A discussion-board is better without people, who are only there for the praise and worship. -----signature----- My first completet story: Pride's Prize: http://boards.theforce.net/message.aspx?topic=22758760 "In the Battle of Coruscant alone, hundreds of millions of battle droids saw action on the ground and in space. " Insider #86 - The story of General Grievous
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 10/17/05 11:06am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
	>>I also want to add (again), that the so-called VIPs aren't doing what they do for fun alone, but also for cash. In that case the cash of me and others. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Jonas-The-Jedi Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 10/17/05 11:18am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
	People have got to be kidding me right? No one said; 'Hey Karen, I think you write like a 12 year old with a mental disability!!!!!' Most - if not all - began with praise for her work (Hard Contact inparticular), but when the 3 million clone figure was brought up, she packed up shop, ran away, hid behind her teutonic knight protector Dark Moose on the STAR WARS boards, and published such nice gems as 'it's all fantasy anyway, I don't see why it matters' and 'think of the little babies in Africa' a scene that could have been right out of Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 4 episode 16 'Who Are You?'; 'Damn it, man! We have to get inside! Our, uh, uh, (glances at Willow with a 'what the hell I am doing' look) families are-are in there! Our, uh, m-mothers and-and tiny, tiny babies!' As humorous as it was when Giles did it, we must remember he did it as a distraction - just like she did. Nope, sorry. I'm all for treating people's work with civility and respect, especially on such subjective issues as 'writing style' and 'prose' - but she put a number there that was flat out wrong and silly. And then she ran away and snipped at her detractors from afar.
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Qu_Klaani Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 10/17/05 11:21am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
	And so people continue to post claims that Karen was flamed, hounded," followed to her blog" or "forced" to leave, and not one offers any proof...because none of this happened before she left, and none of it is why she left. Its perfectly acceptable and understandable that people would want the forum to be more civil, and hell if Karen came back I certainly wouldnt want to kick up this big argument with her again, but why do people have to keep lying about what happened to make their case? The only reason I keep bringing this up is that it annoys me to be falsely accused of these things, and being one of those who actually said it was an absurd number before she decided to stop posting I feel I am being accused of somehow forcing a well-liked VIP away, when it is an undeniable fact that she just left at the first sign of criticism. However if people continue to insist that all these things happened, and she merely buckled and fled under the weight of post after post of flaming, then please, PPOR. Anyway, Ill certainly "sign" this pledge, as I agree with everything in it, but it should not be considered some kind of promise that we will all be mind-numbingly sycophantic, and from what I've seen thats what it would actually take for karen to come back, and thats what it was usually like before, -----signature----- "Perhaps George Lucas should have copied the methods of Peter Jackson in order to make the otherworldly corruption of Anakin's soul more obvious to those who can't fill in the lines without slow-motion close-ups and pounding heart-beat sound effects"
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Master_Keralys Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 10/17/05 11:25am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/17/05 11:29am (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Keralys
	FTeik posted: We also weren't "all sithy". You can have a look at the discussion in question through a link posted just a few posts prior. No, we stated out confusion and curiosity about an issue in a reasonable and civil manner, got sneaky or supercilious remarks and a lot of clone-trooper/SpecialForces-wanking as an answer and when we dared to bring evidence to the contrary they left. nods A valid point, on the first count. You weren't to them. The Saxtonites in general have been towards those who disagree with them at times, but they did leave before that occurred. Which again reinforces my belief that at least Karen had other reasons to do so. Also, I disagree with your interpretation of their responses. I see no indication of snarkiness. To the contrary, they simply pointed back to the arguments they made in the article. When Karen made her comment about real-life spec ops kill ratios, it was simply to hammer home that good troops can easily take on numbers far above and beyond their own. Both Ryan and Karen were polite, and even trying to be somewhat humorous prior to their leaving. I disagree with the number. But then, Ryan himself pointed out that the whole 3 million was only for 3 substations, and moreover was not a fixed number for any specific point in the war. Having read the blogs in question, I see nothing except authors who are a little exasperated by how worked up people get. NOT people worth having screaming, ranting, "I will not buy another one of her books!" fits like some people around here did. There is nothing about their replies, blogs, etc, that seems the least bit more than just exasperated, and certainly nothing of the sort that would deserve the practically constant bashing they're received since they left. And yeah, I just went back and reread every place they posted at that time. There's not a hint of animosity about any of their posts. And as I said, I disagree with them. I agree with the maximalists' points. But Karen and Ryan didn't do anything to deserve the crap they're getting. It was the other posters, the maximalist posters, who got worked up about it. There remains no evidence to suggest a direct correlation between their posting that info and their leaving the boards, as far as I can see. But I also can definitely see why, having left for other reasons, they wouldn't want to come back. Edited to respond to the last couple posts: I do not hold the view that she left because of the flaming/bashing. She didn't. No such thing occurred while she was still on the boards. And I strongly doubt that she wants sycophantic behavior from anyone. She has, in all the interactions I've read, at least by my interpretation, welcomed honest criticism and open discussion of things. I also have an issue with the way things have been construed, and encourage people to go read it for themselves right here. You'll all find it enlightening. No, I continue to maintain that the issue is how they were treated after they left, for reasons that I believe were unrelated. No one has shown, as you just pointed out, that they left because they were poorly treated. And there's no way that they'd leave over being disagreed with on this count - I've watched Karen shrug off much worse many times before. - Keralys -----signature----- God made man. Man rejected God. God became the man Jesus Christ, died and rose again to life, saving man from himself. The craziest story ever told. The truest.
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Borleias Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 10/17/05 11:27am Subject: PGC: Talk with Keralys...
	Master_Keralys posted: Like to make it utterly and absoutely clear before I even start this: Borleias, I am on your side in terms of the numbers argument, and in fact in most maxi/mini arguments. I am a "Saxtonite" in terms of my interpretation of the universe, though not in my obsession with the numbers and visual analysis. I don't have time. No. That actually means you are a TFN Maximalist. The fact you do not have time to obsess yourself is no disqualifier. I don't and I still am lumped into their group. The fact you chose to put civility as a priority is (more later). Keralys posted: Hogwash. I've been arguing with specific posts since page 2. Stop generalizing just because I didn't make lengthy point by point refutations of your arguments. I've been making a point out of clarifying our side's repeatedly thick-skulled misunderstandings (which I am unfortunately beginning to suspect are intentional misreadings) of the point of this thread. I saw your responses, and saw none that were much more than the standard bland statements that were coming out from everyone. If you had typed something useful to me, you would have gotten an answer before Sarek. When I figure Sarek and Jello are doing something new, I mean it. Never mind, you are doing it now, which is still OK. Keralys posted: That's nice. It's relevant to here, HOW? These are not the same boards. Different standards of behavior are expected here. Get over it. The point there, of course, is SDN is being used as an example of our theories being made to work in practice in a debate about the theoretical value of civility in a message board. Keralys posted: Those are, as you noted, Saxtonite dominated boards. These are, it is clear, a pretty even mix. You can't expect the same thing out of them. Agreed, but they can still try. BTW, Saxtonites are a pretty even mix when it comes to other things, like politics. Keralys posted: And, by the way, given the disparate interest levels, age levels, and basic information levels of people on these boards, you're an idiot if you expect people to always have something "useful" to say. Some people just like throwing their two cents worth in even if they're not as informed as everyone else. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's how they learn. Getting flamed chases them away. Actually, people in SDN often do not say a whole lot either. That's why I said their first big post was the test. You are evaluated on your big posts. Keralys posted: Please get it through your head. These boards are for fun. If you want nothing but intense flame-driven debate, go to another board. People here (except you) don't care for that style of argumentation. I may agree with most of your points, but they get lost in the flames a lot of time. Here's the thing. We like fun too. When we aren't forced to be busy in TFN, we actually have fun. Do you think I want to repeat myself ten times, politely or less so, to TMcE? We just have "work" too. Keralys posted: Strawman argument. No one is suggesting that we ban people for being rude, or even outright attacking of character. I don't think I mentioned ban, did I. Keralys posted: We're asking you to act in a more civilized manner. This whole "banstick" threat you keep seeing is nowhere present in any of the arguments presented by those of us trying to find a point of conciliation over this. In fact, we (and people like DP4M) have repeatedly noted that these fears you have are unwarranted. Precisely, the enforced civility. This thread itself is arguably a product of this artificially sterile environment. People are more interested in reconciliation than with investigation, and if that means most of the blame gets dumped onto the Saxtonites (or even Traviss' loyal defenders) where it arguably does not belong, that's fine as long as Traviss comes back... a Saxtonite's POV would have involved an investigation first, under the theory that a reconciliation is easier to achieve if "justice" is achieved. Keralys posted: No, he just said that a person who has the decency to treat others in a way bespeaking his respect, even if he's ignorant and just learning, is more impressive that someone who can shout themselves blue with "good argument" but so constantly insults people that the meaning of his post gets lost on the people he's talking to. Calling someone an idiot is a good way to (a) make them angry and (b) make them forget most of the rest of the point of your post. Or C, they might actually realize this is what they are, and be motivated to change. Furthermore, it is possible, again to ignore the insult, but not a bad post. [quote=Keralys]Strawman again. No one's suggesting that we put being nice ABOVE actually knowing what you're talking about IN TERMS OF WINNING ARGUMENTS.[/quote] This is not the interpretation I got from Jello's post, when combined with his above statement. [quote=Keralys]And I fundamentally disagree with you about the place of civility in society. It serves a rather useful function in curbing the tendencies for brutality. You can pretty easily demonstrate psychologically that having to pretend to be nice actually makes you nicer if you do it for long enough. And being a jerk to someone verbally is about half a step away from being a jerk physically. Civility is essential to the proper functioning of any society.[/quote] Civility is also known to hinder the transfer of information. If everyone grew a couple more inches of "skin," we'd be able to speak with a lot more candor. Furthermore, by being indoctrinated that civility is good, we get it so that we let a lack of civility blind us to more useful traits like genuine competence. This is when any advantages start to fade. [quote=Keralys]Yes, you absolutely have a right to respect.[/quote] 1) I suppose in answering to FTeik here, the word you wanted is "duty". 2) If 1 is correct, then you are really issuing an impossible demand. "Respect" can only be earned. I'm assuming you mean "civility", which is actually dishonesty unless respect is actually present. 3) If you meant "right", see above. No one has a right to be respected - it infringes on another person's free thought. At most they have the right to one or two rounds of civility. [quote=Keralys]At no point did I see Karen or Ryan making "Shut up, I'm the expert here," types of comments.[/quote] [quote=Traviss]Comrades, I'm the real-life defence specialist, and if I could swallow this fictional premise without too much pain, I don't see why you can't...[/quote] A TFNer might be fooled because there was no "Shut Up", but a Saxtonite can easily see through this civility. When you add that to the "fantasy" stuff right above... [quote=Keralys]Moreover, as I have repeatedly noted, Karen's so-called "sniping" was nothing of the sort. She did not comment on the arguments, and for the kriffing last time, she did not attack either side. She said she was sick of both sides being so inflamed about it. BOTH. BOTH BOTH BOTH BOTH BOTH. Did that get it through your skull, or do I need to say it again, and maybe directly quote her a few times?[/quote] I heard her say both, but it hardly matters. If she wants us to eventually quiet down, the last thing she wants to say is say "Please don't continue to discuss how I screwed up. You are wasting your time." If she just shuts up, we'd make all our attacks and get on to the next phase - which would mostly involve isolating the damage. Furthermore, you might want to consider the tactical situation involved. In a normal battle b/w fans, if both sides agree to quit, it is a draw. In this kind of battle, if the attacker quits, the defender wins. [quote=Keralys]This is where the issue comes in, most clearly. Havac proposed a slight standdown. He didn't propose we stop arguing. He asked that we do it in a civil way, without calling each other idiots needlessly.[/quote] As I said, we might be able to somehow avoid calling them idiots. The problem is that we don't see how we can agree even in theory to the other stuff. [quote=Keralys]Star Wars is not objective reality that can be quantified and measured in the same ways that our own universe can. I think that applying our visual standards to it is an acceptable way of doing things, and the way I prefer. That does not mean it is fact. Others, like Thrawn McEwok, have made robust attempts at defending a minimalist view. I disagree with him, but he is not de facto wrong because of my methodology. Nor am I wrong because of his. It is in fact a fictional universe, and we are constrained by that.[/quote] Now, here's the ultimate problem. To a Saxtonite, who temporarily assumes the world is real as far as possible, thinks that there is one true answer in the continuity, somewhere, just like in the real world. It is just that it is not easy to find it. To us, a viewpoint, for example, that the Executor is 8km long is not an Alternate Viewpoint. It is an incorrect viewpoint caused by the incorrect analysis of evidence against the Canon Rules. [quote=Keralys]This is where you have had problems. Because as far as I can tell, you don't want a cease fire, and you'll only stop calling people idiots when they SURRENDER and agree with you.[/quote] No. Here is another solution. Actually give me some semi-decent debate. You'd notice that even though I think you are actually flaming me without using the commonly associated flame series (not using flame words does not mean you are not flaming), because you are not acting like a total idiot, you continue to have my respect ... which is why you are not being flamed. I actually have a much bigger reserve than the "Saxtonite" norm. This does not mean I won't try to force you to surrender, though. Just that I probably won't use "Flame Weapons." [quote=Keralys]She has every right to defend the OFFICIAL position.[/quote] Yes, but that gives me the right to attack. Do you know what it looks like when a defense is made and no offense is struck? Furthermore, does she have the right to attack other author's numbers in her attempt to defend her own? [quote=Keralys]She has every right to not be called delusional.[/quote] And why is that? This to me is the same thing as rudeness. The only way to really not be called delusional is to act like it, just as the only way to not be called rude is to be polite (to use an analogy that hopefully suits your tastes). If we just stopped talking, this is just fakeness. [quote=Keralys]And remember, everything I've said here, I've said as someone who agrees with you. But I think you're doing this the wrong way, and you're not going to get anywhere with the way you are doing it. I think your primary difficulty is that you can't see the biases in your own arguments for maximalism. It's not hard fact, because the only thing that is "HARD FACT" in SW is whatever GL says it is, and at the moment that's 3 million. You can think that's absurd and suggest changing it, but you can't say it's WRONG, because right now it isn't.[/quote] Fortunately for us, it is not, really. If GL said it, it'd be G-canon, no? Please tell me that disaster had not happened! Someone in LFL said it. That's all. Someone in LFL once said the Executor was 8km long too... Well. You'd have to wait almost exactly 12 hours before I'm free to write anything again. I stayed up for too long already. Good night... P.S. BTW, nice summary there, Jonas!
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 10/17/05 11:43am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/17/05 11:45am (1 edits total) Edited By: rhonderoo
	If she wants us to eventually quiet down, the last thing she wants to say is say "Please don't continue to discuss how I screwed up. You are wasting your time." If she just shuts up, we'd make all our attacks and get on to the next phase - which would mostly involve isolating the damage. Furthermore, you might want to consider the tactical situation involved. In a normal battle b/w fans, if both sides agree to quit, it is a draw. In this kind of battle, if the attacker quits, the defender wins. I cannot even begin to tell you how this sounds. Your quote of hers is not flaming, baiting or even sniping, it's basically saying move on. There are better things to fight about, and nothing in the Star Wars universe warrants this kind of attitude, I'm sorry. If she just "shuts up"? You'd all "make your attacks" and get on to your next phase? No one may be talking about bans, but they should be. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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The2ndQuest Title: Manager: -Literature -LACWAC -Games Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 10/17/05 11:59am Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct - Date Edited: 10/17/05 12:00pm (1 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	>>If she just shuts up, we'd make all our attacks and get on to the next phase - which would mostly involve isolating the damage.>As I said, we might be able to somehow avoid calling them idiots.>Fortunately for us, it is not, really. If GL said it, it'd be G-canon, no? Please tell me that disaster had not happened! Someone in LFL said it. That's all. -----signature----- "When your future self tells you to do something, YOU DO IT." K'Kruhk, 140 ABY:"Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Jonas-The-Jedi Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 10/17/05 12:06pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
	The2ndQuest posted: If you want G-canon, than the army is made of 1.2 million clones, as, IIRC, he informed Stover (directly or indirectly through LFL), circa Shatterpoint's creation, that there were only 1.2 million clones for the Republic and that was it. Personally, I'd rather have the 3-5 million+ figure from the article if given the choice between the two Well if you want to play that game I'd rather have the 1.2 million units with a 'unit' meaning at least a brigade.
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Gladiuus Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 10/17/05 12:11pm Subject: RE: Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return: An All-Around Pledge of Good Conduct
	The whole premise of this thread is ridiculous. People, Traviss was not chased of the boards. At all. Whether she left because she genuinely lacked the time to continue regular posting or because she was threatened by the at the time minor criticism of the GGAR article is up for grabs, but it certainly had nothing to do with her being attacked or flamed or anything like that. Go back and read the damn thread before you start wailing about people being rude or a loss of civility.
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