Author Topic: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)
Ive_Got_Two_Legs  3647 posts
Registered: Jul '05
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 5/12/06 8:17pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)
Another bit of evidence that Jango never intended the clones to be soldiers for a new mandalorian clan. In Republic #50, the lead ARC trooper has this to say after setting the self-destruct for a clone hatchery being overrun:

"Jango's orders. We can't allow the clones to fall into the wrong hands. They grow up loyal to the Republic, or they don't grow up at all."

But I'm sure Jango ordering his closest confidants not to let the clones grow up loyal to anything other than the Republic was just misinformation! rolling_eyes

 

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Havac  14251 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 5/12/06 9:54pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)
Yeah, because the ARCs would tell the Jedi if their soldiers were loyal to a warrior race that had attacked their civilization in the past. Such inescapable logic. raised_brow

 

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Adm_Thrawn  4008 posts
Registered: Dec '04
7559_Thrawn
Date Posted: 5/12/06 9:59pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 5/12/06 10:00pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Adm_Thrawn
What was he supposed to say?

"They grow up loyal to the Republic, oh, and, of course, the Mando'ade, or they don't grow up at all."

 

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Ive_Got_Two_Legs  3647 posts
Registered: Jul '05
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 5/12/06 10:11pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 5/12/06 10:33pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ive_Got_Two_Legs
Havac posted:
Yeah, because the ARCs would tell the Jedi if their soldiers were loyal to a warrior race that had attacked their civilization in the past. Such inescapable logic. raised_brow


Oh, I dunno...try and help the overwhelming invading military force that the Mandalorians are allied with in killing the Jedi that Jango hated and take the clones to Mandalore? After all, it's only two Jedi, and we all know that Jedi are absolutely useless against Mandalorians, so naturally the ARCs could have done it in an instant with zero injuries had they wished to.

Let's try thinking this through for you.

1. There are only two or three Jedi working with the ARC squad.
2. The Separatists have an overwhelming strategic and numerical advantage in the battle. According to Lama Su, the ARCs are the last line of defense.
3. There are only two or three Jedi with the ARC squad.
4. From that, they would have easily been able to tip the scale of the battle had they joined.

Then this:

1. The Mandalorian were allied with the Separatists.
2. The Mandalorians hate the Jedi.
3. Jango personally hates Jedi.
4. Despite that, and the chance to raise the millions of clones as new Mandalorians, the ARCs continue to serve the Republic and insist on killing any clones that don't.

Add in the fact that the Jedi would have sensed had the ARCs been lying, and that the Kaminoans were building an army for the Republic and their professionalism wouldn't allow Jango to sow discord among their ranks, and what Jango actually says in OS, and the theory that "Jango really wanted the clones to become Mandalorians" is relegated to the level of McEwok's current delusion.

 

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LtNOWIS  2473 posts
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 5/12/06 10:34pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)
What Jango wants isn't really relevant to the situation of the Null ARCs and Skirata's RCs. They idolize Kal more than anyone else, certainly more than Jango. And they're the only ones with real loyalty to any Mandalorian.

 

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Havac  14251 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 5/12/06 10:37pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 5/12/06 10:42pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
Excising the sarcasm and baiting and responding to the relevant points . . .

The Mandalorians hadn't even been reformed by Spar yet. So having them allied with the Seppies doesn't make much sense. Plus, Jango's a mercenary and a businessman, not a fanatic. He's training an army for a client and raised them to be loyal to the client. Because of his culture, he also happens to raise his charges with his culture. To suggest that having Mando culture will make them disloyal to the Republic is like suggesting that US Army soldiers can't be Christian, or Jewish, or Muslim, or Mexican, because they'll be disloyal. It's a culture, not a rival nation. rolling_eyes

EDIT: I see you've added more. So you're suggesting that the troopers disobey Jango's orders to serve the Republic so they can kill a couple Jedi and take down the entire Order 66 strategy with them? Congratulations. Palpatine is now short a clone army, a Clone Wars, the ability to kill all the Jedi by surprise, and has his plans exposed to a galaxy full of 10,000 Jedi. doh!

 

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Ive_Got_Two_Legs  3647 posts
Registered: Jul '05
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 5/12/06 11:02pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)
LtNOWIS posted:
What Jango wants isn't really relevant to the situation of the Null ARCs and Skirata's RCs. They idolize Kal more than anyone else, certainly more than Jango. And they're the only ones with real loyalty to any Mandalorian.


Fortunately, Null Arcs and whatever else uber-Sueage Traviss spews out is irrelevant to the fact that we have a source stating Jango ordered that clones be loyal to the Republic on pain of death.

Havac posted:
The Mandalorians hadn't even been reformed by Spar yet. So having them allied with the Seppies doesn't make much sense.


No doubt you're forgetting that the Mandalorian force built by Spar was loyal only to the Mandalorian government, which had joined the CIS. The very fact that Spar's Mandalorians fought with the CIS is evidence enough that Mandalore Sector had already joined up prior to his reformation.

Havac posted:
Plus, Jango's a mercenary and a businessman, not a fanatic. He's training an army for a client and raised them to be loyal to the client.


Try reading Open Seasons again. He is not a businessman, he is a fanatic, and he is not into it to make satisfied clients. He is in it so make a war that will result in Jedi deaths.

Havac posted:
Because of his culture, he also happens to raise his charges with his culture.


Ah, so Jango trained all 3.2 million clone units on his own? Busy man. I'm sure the computerized education seen in AOTC and in the novel was all misinformation then?

Havac posted:
It's a culture, not a rival nation.


Oh yeah, Mandalorians and the Republic are perfectly synonymous. This is ridiculous to the point of not even needing a rebuttal.

Havac posted:
So you're suggesting that the troopers disobey Jango's orders to serve the Republic so they can kill a couple Jedi and take down the entire Order 66 strategy with them? Congratulations. Palpatine is now short a clone army, a Clone Wars, the ability to kill all the Jedi by surprise, and has his plans exposed to a galaxy full of 10,000 Jedi.


Thank you for proving my point for me. I don't what you thought you were getting at, but it shows exactly why Traviss' crackpot theories are pure garbage pit sludge.

 

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LtNOWIS  2473 posts
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 5/12/06 11:16pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)
Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:

Fortunately, Null Arcs and whatever else uber-Sueage Traviss spews out is irrelevant to the fact that we have a source stating Jango ordered that clones be loyal to the Republic on pain of death.


Null ARCs don't follow orders, and they're presumably not terribly afraid of death either. They're also not terribly loyal to the Republic, but they fight for it anyways. Presumably, that's because they don't want to abandon their brothers, and they certainly don't want to have clones sent after them if they desert.

All other clone troopers are generally loyal to the Republic.

 

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Havac  14251 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 5/12/06 11:17pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 5/12/06 11:19pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Havac
Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:
Havac posted:
The Mandalorians hadn't even been reformed by Spar yet. So having them allied with the Seppies doesn't make much sense.


No doubt you're forgetting that the Mandalorian force built by Spar was loyal only to the Mandalorian government, which had joined the CIS. The very fact that Spar's Mandalorians fought with the CIS is evidence enough that Mandalore Sector had already joined up prior to his reformation.

Again, Spar hadn't reformed them yet. And being a Mando has nothing to do with being loyal to the Mandalorian sector government -- that was Spar's choice to bind his organization to them.

Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:
Havac posted:
Plus, Jango's a mercenary and a businessman, not a fanatic. He's training an army for a client and raised them to be loyal to the client.


Try reading Open Seasons again. He is not a businessman, he is a fanatic, and he is not into it to make satisfied clients. He is in it so make a war that will result in Jedi deaths.

He doesn't like the Jedi. He isn't a moron. He wants the Jedi to die, and he's smart enough to know that creating a psychotic, Jedi-hating, out-of-control army isn't the way to do it -- Order 66 is.

Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:
Havac posted:
Because of his culture, he also happens to raise his charges with his culture.


Ah, so Jango trained all 3.2 million clone units on his own? Busy man. I'm sure the computerized education seen in AOTC and in the novel was all misinformation then?

You do realize you're the one who started talking about ARCs here, who are Jango-trained? The original point stands.

Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:
[quote=Havac]It's a culture, not a rival nation.


Oh yeah, Mandalorians and the Republic are perfectly synonymous. This is ridiculous to the point of not even needing a rebuttal.[/quote]
How come any time Q_M does this, you jump on him for not addressing your points? I don't really care which direction you choose, but one or the other. At least be consistent. Show me, at all, how any clone of any sort (excepting unstable nutjob Spar) has ever been shown to be loyal to the "Mandalorian warrior race army" as opposed to holding Mandalorian cultural values and speaking the language. Show me.

Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:
[quote=Havac]So you're suggesting that the troopers disobey Jango's orders to serve the Republic so they can kill a couple Jedi and take down the entire Order 66 strategy with them? Congratulations. Palpatine is now short a clone army, a Clone Wars, the ability to kill all the Jedi by surprise, and has his plans exposed to a galaxy full of 10,000 Jedi.


Thank you for proving my point for me. I don't what you thought you were getting at, but it shows exactly why Traviss' crackpot theories are pure garbage pit sludge.[/quote]
I don't know what you're getting at.
Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:
Let's try thinking this through for you.

1. There are only two or three Jedi working with the ARC squad.
2. The Separatists have an overwhelming strategic and numerical advantage in the battle. According to Lama Su, the ARCs are the last line of defense.
3. There are only two or three Jedi with the ARC squad.
4. From that, they would have easily been able to tip the scale of the battle had they joined.

Then this:

1. The Mandalorian were allied with the Separatists.
2. The Mandalorians hate the Jedi.
3. Jango personally hates Jedi.
4. Despite that, and the chance to raise the millions of clones as new Mandalorians, the ARCs continue to serve the Republic and insist on killing any clones that don't.

[quote=Havac]So you're suggesting that the troopers disobey Jango's orders to serve the Republic so they can kill a couple Jedi and take down the entire Order 66 strategy with them? Congratulations. Palpatine is now short a clone army, a Clone Wars, the ability to kill all the Jedi by surprise, and has his plans exposed to a galaxy full of 10,000 Jedi.[/quote]
What isn't clear?

 

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LtNOWIS  2473 posts
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 5/12/06 11:29pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 5/12/06 11:30pm (1 edits total) Edited By: LtNOWIS
Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:



Havac posted:
Plus, Jango's a mercenary and a businessman, not a fanatic. He's training an army for a client and raised them to be loyal to the client.


Try reading Open Seasons again. He is not a businessman, he is a fanatic, and he is not into it to make satisfied clients. He is in it so make a war that will result in Jedi deaths.


Try reading the Jango Fett and Zam Wessell comics, and the young Boba Fett books. He mellowed out a lot when Boba came along, and was very business-minded.

Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:

Havac posted:
Because of his culture, he also happens to raise his charges with his culture.


Ah, so Jango trained all 3.2 million clone units on his own? Busy man. I'm sure the computerized education seen in AOTC and in the novel was all misinformation then?


Right, because you obviously can't teach some aspects of Mando culture through computers.

Anyways, Jango wasn't terribly concerned about Mando culture, but Skirata was, and it spread somewhat.

Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:

Havac posted:
It's a culture, not a rival nation.


Oh yeah, Mandalorians and the Republic are perfectly synonymous. This is ridiculous to the point of not even needing a rebuttal.

The clone troopers didn't know the democratic, freedomific ideals of the Republic. They weren't fighting for freedom. They were fighting because that's what they were ordered to do, and they were raised to obey orders. That's why they were generally ok with serving the Empire. The Mando ideals of survival, family, and wearing armor don't clash with their soldier-oriented lives.

 

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DarthBoba  32897 posts
Registered: Jun '00
8187_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 5/13/06 12:20am Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)
LtNOWIS posted:
The clone troopers didn't know the democratic, freedomific ideals of the Republic. They weren't fighting for freedom. They were fighting because that's what they were ordered to do, and they were raised to obey orders. That's why they were generally ok with serving the Empire. The Mando ideals of survival, family, and wearing armor don't clash with their soldier-oriented lives.




Hear hear.

RC-HC:

Etain: "What are you fighting for?"

Darman: "Peace and justice."

Etain: "What are you fighting against?"

Darman: "Anarchy."

Not a whole lot about fighting for democracy in there, now is there? :P

 

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Adm_Thrawn  4008 posts
Registered: Dec '04
7559_Thrawn
Date Posted: 5/13/06 1:39pm Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)
Remember, the Mandalorian influence, at first, wasn't particularly strong in the rank-and-file troops. It was, for the most part, limited to the occasional "Vode An!" before a battle. The same could be said of the Alpha ARCs. It was mostly an RC thing (because of the Cuy'val Dar). Only after several years of interaction between the two groups (shiny boys and white jobs) did things like Rage of the Shadow Warriors begin to bleed over into the regular army.

 

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TheEmperorsProtege  8697 posts
Registered: May '04
44322_Star Wars 30th Anniversary
Date Posted: 6/19/06 2:52am Subject: RE: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed)
I really loved the first RC book. Triple Zero was a harder read (some boring/lengthy bits) but I liked it.
Is there gonna be a third book in this series?

 

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The2ndQuest  40066 posts
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Registered: Jan '00
49624_H234: Samus
Date Posted: 7/7 6:35pm Subject: The Official Republic Commando: Triple Zero Discussion Thread (spoilers allowed) - Date Edited: 7/8 8:11am (2 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
So I finally got around to finishing this one, and I must say I really enjoyed this one. I always enjoy more grounded POV stories of the SW universe, as well as ones that try a different genre approach within the universe, and this one delivered on that. I loved the whole grounded view of setting up the operation, planning out the missions, reconning areas and data, following leads until it weaves together in a tightly executed strike mission (and having CSF's massive takedown of secondary targets happening in the background really threw an epic scale to what would have otehrwise been smaller action).

Pretty much all the characters are made distinct and interesting, from Corr to the Deltas. But the real star of this book is introducing (not counting "Targets") Kal Skirata, who comes across as the ultimate father figure/warrior, but is made flawed enough to not make him seem like too much of a super caharcter. But you can really sense why all these characters from Etain, to the Omegas to Corr look up to him as a father and want his approval, as the reader themselves are drawn into having that very same POV.

Which makes it sting worse on the two occassions where Etain (and the reader) thinks revealing certain information to Skirata would be a happy surprise and please him, only to have him tear her (and the reader) down due to his cultural logic and affiliation. You really feel sorry for her because of that close reader association with her desires (independent of the actual character).

The book surpasses Hard Contact, IMO, because HC really took a while for me to get into- it wasn't until the end that I really had a handle on the style of the book and the nature of the charactersm though the action at the end made up for that. Here, Triple Zero is engaging from the start and I really never wanted it to end, in a way. I wanted to see this semi-ragtag group (and, really, SW isn't SW until you have a ragtag group) continue on other urban missions- but it looks like TC, O66 and 501st will make due.

And though I wouldn't want ever SW book to be like it- I rather enjoyed the Mando glossary and hopping back and forth to reference and translate phrases (even though the actual text did a good job of conveying or translating context and meaning). It reminded me of jumping back and forth between Rebel dawn and the HSA books during the three interludes.

And one of these days I'll need to reread some of the LOTF Mando sections just so I can finally understand the character connections and fates I was oblivious to when reading LOTF initially.

Also, Sicko- best. clone. name. ever. laugh

EDIT- And I find it interesting that we have two major clone-daddies (Darman and Nate) that concieve in the same month, almost at the same time, of the war.

 

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