Master_of_Ossus posted:To all of the people who support the 3 million number (and especially those using the Battle of Thermopylae as an example):
Master_of_Ossus posted: 5. At Merson, a mere 5:1 numerical inferiority caused the Republic (clone-led) forces to be TPKed. At Parcellus Minor, a mere 10:1 numerical inferiority caused 90% casualties among the clone forces, and required the naval commander on-hand to basically wipe out the surface of the planet to salvage even that force (ie. they would've lost completely without orbital dominance) (DHC Clone Wars Book 5). How do you reconcile the simultaneous importance of even slight numerical superiority in these battles with the spectacular numerical superiority enjoyed by CIS forces, according to your numbers?
Master_of_Ossus posted: 6. How do you explain the following quote from Insider 65: Shadowfeed: Shadowfeed posted:"The forces on our borders and outlying colonial assets are admittedly facing greater numbers, but with our inexhaustible supply of troops and materiel from the Neimoidian coffer-worlds, Techno Union home foundaries and mighty guild-worlds, its only a matter of time before the republic is overwhelmed." The quote indicates that the droid army was outnumbered by the clones...
Shadowfeed posted:"The forces on our borders and outlying colonial assets are admittedly facing greater numbers, but with our inexhaustible supply of troops and materiel from the Neimoidian coffer-worlds, Techno Union home foundaries and mighty guild-worlds, its only a matter of time before the republic is overwhelmed."
Master_of_Ossus posted: 8. During the Battle of Utapau, Obi-Wan's entire clone force was required to defeat a mere "thousands" of battle droids, along with indigenous forces. Once again, how can this be explained if the clones were so much more powerful than the droids?
Lord_Hydronium posted: "We outnumber them 300 billion to one" vs. "They outnumber us". That's not called "playing with people's sympathies", it's called "being really stupid". Propaganda is supposed to raise morale.
Lord_Hydronium posted: And never take a single casualty. Except when they get slaughtered on Jabiim. Or Parcellus Minor. Or Merson. Or Muunilist. But maybe they're just so awesome that they can fight after they're dead! Oh, and they don't ever get exhausted or have supply problems. And the CIS has never heard the word "siege".
Lord_Hydronium posted: Yeah, I think you've just summed up the pro three million argument.
Lord_Hydronium posted: Not if the Republic targeted those factories at the start of the battle, thus limiting CIS forces to the droids they had on-planet at the time. It's why I've said (though apparently it must appear on other people's computers in a foreign language or something) that yes, tactics can make a difference. Ah, and I love how those who "deem the movies as pure fact" are portrayed as somehow in the wrong; apparently the canon policy changed while I wasn't looking. T-canon, the works of Traviss, now overrides everything else, including those pesky movies.
Lord_Hydronium posted:OK, so let's say only a thousand droids can fight at any one time. So those thousand droids go up against the clones and get whooped. Then a thousand more are sent in, and they lose too. Then a thousand more. And so on. But each new detachment sent into the breach is fresh into combat, while the defenders are still the same people, each successive engagement wearing them down bit by bit. And this happens about a million times. So do the defenders not get worn down, then? Are they just that super-awesome that they can fight as many battles as they want in succession and it will never affect them? Does attrition never come into the picture? As for Traviss' retcon, figures. The alternative is admitting she was wrong, so instead she ignores other people's work.
Havac posted:Lord_Hydronium posted:OK, so let's say only a thousand droids can fight at any one time. So those thousand droids go up against the clones and get whooped. Then a thousand more are sent in, and they lose too. Then a thousand more. And so on. But each new detachment sent into the breach is fresh into combat, while the defenders are still the same people, each successive engagement wearing them down bit by bit. And this happens about a million times. So do the defenders not get worn down, then? Are they just that super-awesome that they can fight as many battles as they want in succession and it will never affect them? Does attrition never come into the picture? As for Traviss' retcon, figures. The alternative is admitting she was wrong, so instead she ignores other people's work. Are there really, realistically, going to be 20,000 battle droids sitting at each engagement? The droids are spread across the galaxy.
sidious618 posted:Hey, Karen's retcon is pretty good. Let's hope the story is up to par with HC and not bad like TZ. Anyone have thoughts on the story itself?
MercenaryAce posted:Simply Really 1) Prue plain propanganda. Look at the source man, CIS shadow feed.
MercenaryAce posted:2)The CIS is more spread out. THe droids are out stomping militias, so generaly when CLones and Droids meet its in around equal numbers.
MercenaryAce posted:3) Have you read the post you just posted? Serisously dude-limitless numbers of troops. The article suggests many border CIS worlds were unprotected, which makes sense in the begaining-just because the droids are built doens't mean they are where they need to be.
razzy1319 posted:Master Ossus: a failure to read the earlier post is one of the key aspects of misunderstanding in this discussions It isnt wholly about logic.
Me posted:The whole point of bringing up Thermopylae isnt about 4000 greeks vs 250000 persians, it was about the fact that it was thought to be impossible that such a stand would somehow end up to be a victory whether or not the warriors who sacrifice their lives would be lost and that the persians would come as fast and hard as their futuristic counterparts.
Razzy posted:Just a nice little fact, the King's personal choice of troops, The Immortals, had a number of 10000 and if some died would be replaced immediately to give the sense of their "immortality" but to spartans who arent that gullible the immortals represented the fact that they were fighting an force that was as infinite as the droid army.
Razzy posted:Was just reading the the clone wars article over at Wookiee and noticed that there were probably just 3-4 major battles during the first year and most of the action during that time was: 1. CIS looking for superweapons 2. Jedi and Special Forces destroying Superweapons 3. A strategic shot at the major Sep Financier 4. If Hypori is indeed the last battle of the first year, then its apt that it might be the biggest of the major battles since Greevy finally shows his gameface.
Razzy posted:EDIT: Said it before and will say until everybody knows, By calculations done by those who deem the movies as pure fact, the Droid Foundries of Geonosis should have pumped droids fast enough to geometrically outnumber the 120,000 clones in a matter of hours. Which based on the logic of those against the 3M clones, Geonosis should have been a Rep Loss.
LtNOWIS posted:4. On Jabiim the Republic was hampered by bad weather and poor leadership. They should've listened to Alpha.
LtNOWIS Merson was not clone-led. It was Jedi-led. Furthermore, nowhere is it stated they were outnumbered five to one. Rather, there were 5 times as many droids as the intel had indicated.[/quote posted: Conceded, although being Jedi-led must logically be better than being led by clones or else the Republic would not consistently use that strategy. This does, though, demonstrate that the clones cannot, in fact, overcome the sort of numerical inferiority claimed by proponents of the 3,000,000 number. [quote=LtNOWIS]No it doesn't. I don't see the word clone anywhere in that quote. Like I said, militia.
LtNOWIS posted:It was Grievous. He was the key to destroying the CIS, ending the war, and thus being able to curb Palpatine. You simply do not skimp on troops for a mission like that.
Havac posted:Are there really, realistically, going to be 20,000 battle droids sitting at each engagement?
Havac posted:The droids are spread across the galaxy. Most of the people defending the number aren't sitting here going "ZOMG TRAVISS!!11!!1" Most would prefer a larger number. We are, however, working with what we've been given and trying to show it could work. We're being constructive.
Havac posted:I really don't see what whining about official numbers going "ZOMG ITS SO STOOPID!111!!!!! TRAVISS SUX!!!111!111" contributes to the discussion.
MercenaryAce posted:Notice how every time only a few thousand troops are lost, and yet each one of those was considered a great defeat, and a almost crippiling blow to the Republic. If there were billions of Clones, those battles would be drops in the bucket. They could only be major defeats to a much smaller Clone army.
Pershing posted:This discussion makes me wonder, if huge numbers of droids are committed to a battle and the initial waves are destroyed, wouldn't they eventually start having to cross entire ramparts of destroyed droids? B1s don't seem like the agile sort so I imagine it'd be difficult for them to manuver what amounts to be an obstacle course of fallen droids.