Author Topic: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Pershing  454 posts
Registered: Sep '05
6489_High Inquisitor Tremayne
Date Posted: 4/9/06 12:22pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/9/06 12:24pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Pershing
Master_of_Ossus posted:
In real life battles, this has not been a significant issue even after heavy fighting. It seems dubious that a clone wars battle would be any different, particularly since each soldier carries enough firepower to punch through walls and other obstacles given even a few seconds of concerted effort. Using reality as a guide, the use of droids actually reduces the difficulties associated with protracted warfare because they don't have to be buried and do not spread disease.


Good point, although didn't Jedi Trial basically have a horde of droids slamming themselves into Republic lines? I know the lines broke before it could become an issue but I attribute that to the very non-clone forces being overwhelmed through sheer numbers. I imagine if clones held a fortified position in sufficient numbers they might have created a situation to that effect.

Edit: And in case you're wondering, yes this is more an idle thought rather than a legitimate military issue in SW.

 

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sidious618  11601 posts
Registered: Apr '03
8059_Qui-Gon Jinn
Date Posted: 4/9/06 12:51pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Y'know I didn't really care about the number of clones until I played Battlefront 2. I realized that there had to be more than 3 million clones to help compensate for the number of times that I've died.

 

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Fist_of_Mandalore  2926 posts
Registered: Mar '05
43216_Mandalorian
Date Posted: 4/9/06 12:52pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/9/06 12:53pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Fist_of_Mandalore
sidious618 posted:
Y'know I didn't really care about the number of clones until I played Battlefront 2. I realized that there had to be more than 3 million clones to help compensate for the number of times that I've died.

That actually made me smirk. Congratulations.

EDIT: That sounded way more smart-arsey than I intended...

 

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LtNOWIS  2480 posts
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 4/9/06 12:58pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Master_of_Ossus posted:


Everyone knows that clones are much better military leaders than Jedi. That's why the Republic uses Jedi as generals. Oh, wait....



Master_of_Ossus posted:

Conceded, although being Jedi-led must logically be better than being led by clones or else the Republic would not consistently use that strategy.


Do you honestly believe non-soldiers make better strategic leaders than soldiers? The jedi learned pretty quick, but they weren't perfect. They weren't put in charge because of their effectiveness, they were put in charge because they had Jedi wisdom, and would respect civilians. The Jedi are the "moral authority," so they're in charge.

Master_of_Ossus posted:

How quickly, exactly, were the militia for the Republic mobilized for offensive operations against the Confederacy? Training people takes time.

Well, I imagine they'd mostly be doing defense/insurgency, not offense. Training people doesn't take very long, especially if you're just refining existing groups, like on Haruun Kal or Ord Cestus.

Master_of_Ossus posted:

You wouldn't be skimping on troops, though, to deploy a force only a fraction of the size of the droid army, though, if the 3,000,000 clone adherents are to be believed.

Well, the ratios are often less favorable when you're attacking a fortified location, defended by a good strategist. That's why the fighting the Outer Rim Seiges was a good strategy for Grievous. Luckily for the Republic, there weren't too many such battles. And it's not like they could've been 100% sure how many troops Grievous had, or if he had any nasty surprises.

About Muunilinst:
The NEC says "hundreds of assault ships," not hundreds of Acclamators. Since 200 fully-loaded Acclamators clearly doesn't fit the canon, it's possible the historian meant LAATs, not Acclamators. It would be pretty hard to land an Acclamator behind enemy lines, since they were in a city. Furthermore, we only see 11 Acclamators emerge from hyperspace in Clone Wars chapter 2.

 

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MercenaryAce  2804 posts
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 4/9/06 1:11pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
"Let me get this straight, when someone says, "Okay, I admit that we face this disadvantage, but we have X and Y on our side" you consider the admitted disadvantage a piece of propoganda? "
Yeah when you're trying to seem more herioic it is. Besides this was one of many possible explanations, and this one was the weakest.

"How quickly, exactly, were the militia for the Republic mobilized for offensive operations against the Confederacy? Training people takes time. "

Ugh. Many militias and full blown armies were already trained and equiped prior to the clone wars. Remember Episode 1? And that was a small army. (panaka implied most planets have a larger army)
Besides, they don't have to be trained, a militia can just be a bunch of armed citizens.

"I love the way you decry Dooku's admission of inferiority as being propoganda and then accept his claims of "limitless troops" at face value. "

two possible different explanations. Take one or the other. doesn't really matter, as the point was that there was a way to explain that quote. Personaly, my preferred explanation is that the CIS mioltias were outnumbered by the Republic ones and the Droids were not yet deployed.

"Let me ask you all this: what is the smallest possible percentage of total Republic forces that you believe could be made up of clones for the entire thing to make any sense. "

Probably less then 10% of Republic forces. Which makes sense, as a there was galaxy worth of local, mercenary, corporate, volunteer and judical armies and navys to absorb.

"Except that the CIS has militias, also, and in battles like Jabiim the droids were outnumbered by the clones. "
There can be exceptions to any rule. The CIS probably didn't want to spare any droids to Jabiim for a while, and then sent in droids to reinforce the miltia at the end. At which point they did have an advantage in numbers (there are numorus quotes about this) and fire power, as most Republic vehicles were already destroyed.

WHile the Clone army is small, its nothing the retaconners can't handle. After all, even post-episode two they took all of Boba's jumpled backstories and put them together

Finally lets not forget that Kamino didn't have a lot of room, just a few crowded cities that had to support the Kaminoens too. Therefore, the Clone Army couldn't have been very large.

On topic now: I heard this issuse is already out. Anyone read it yet? Is it good?

 

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Lord_Hydronium  6296 posts
Title: Literature Gardener
Registered: Jun '02
15597_Vergere
Date Posted: 4/9/06 1:27pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/24/06 11:57am (2 edits total) Edited By: DarthSapient

Not just that, Traviss' story changes weekly. First it's "SUPAH-AWSOME clones", then it's "three million isn't the entire army", then it's "numbers don't matter (except mine)", then it's "chess game", and now it's "ignore all other canon and listen to MEEE!!!" Maybe she's just forgetful.

Are LFL's editors asleep at the wheel here? How were the very distinct and clear references to quintillions of droids missed? And none of that "bad intelligence" crap; ROTS:ICS and Lord of War are out of universe sources. Actually, since Odds is no doubt from a character POV, that's the number to be retconned.

Fist_of_Mandalore posted:
The most recent canon (dont give me this ITW quote being higher canon any Saxtonites out there) states that the clones are 3,000,000+ strong from Kamino.

Nobody said ITW was higher canon. They're equal, which means any retcon needs to incorporate both. Now, as it's never said three million is the entire clone army (Traviss herself used to say this before she forgot), the logical thing is to retcon that number as being some subset. Of course, there's that tricky word "logical", which Traviss may not know. And that would require admitting she was wrong, which she apparently is less fond of doing than saying "everyone else is wrong".

And "Saxtonite"? ITW was written by Simon Beecroft.

 

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President_Sharky  1191 posts
Registered: Jan '04
24212_Palpatine
Date Posted: 4/9/06 1:33pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
LtNOWIS posted:

About Muunilinst:
The NEC says "hundreds of assault ships," not hundreds of Acclamators. Since 200 fully-loaded Acclamators clearly doesn't fit the canon, it's possible the historian meant LAATs, not Acclamators. It would be pretty hard to land an Acclamator behind enemy lines, since they were in a city. Furthermore, we only see 11 Acclamators emerge from hyperspace in Clone Wars chapter 2.


Don't try to be coy. You know as everyone else knows that the "Republic Assault Ship" is a colloquialism for Acclamator-class trans-galactic military transport ship. And you see a hell of a lot more than 11 Acclamators in CW. Besides, the NEC is quite specific in stating that hundreds of assault ships were used at Munnilinst.

As for Traviss new idiocy, the "hundreds of millions of droids", it is already been invalidated by many other articles, such as her own GGAR (quadrillions of droids), the ROTS:ICS (quintillions of droids), and the General Grievous articles (quintillions of droids, with billions starfighters alone).

 

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LtNOWIS  2480 posts
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 4/9/06 1:58pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
I can't seem to edit my post. But to back up what I was saying earlier, we see hundreds of LAATs attack Muunilinst in Chapter 2, but we don't see any Acclamators actually enter the atmosphere during the assault. The massed LAAT attack against heavy counterfire matches the NEC's description.

 

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Rogue_Follower  8554 posts
Title: Manager:
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Registered: Nov '03
6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 4/9/06 2:00pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
[i]>>>Actually, since Odds is no doubt from a character POV, that's the number to be retconned.

 

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LtNOWIS  2480 posts
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 4/9/06 2:16pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
President_Sharky posted:

Don't try to be coy. You know as everyone else knows that the "Republic Assault Ship" is a colloquialism for Acclamator-class trans-galactic military transport ship. And you see a hell of a lot more than 11 Acclamators in CW. Besides, the NEC is quite specific in stating that hundreds of assault ships were used at Munnilinst.


The NEC doesn't say "Republic Assault Ship" it says "assault ships," lowercase. By my count, you don't see any more than 11 Acclamators, at least not at Muunilinst. Yes, I know it says the Republic sent hundreds of assault ships down. We see hundreds of LAATs go down to the surface, but no Acclamators. I don't think more than one Acclamator could land behind enemy lines in that crowded cityscape, without us seeing it on-screen.
President_Sharky posted:

As for Traviss new idiocy, the "hundreds of millions of droids", it is already been invalidated by many other articles, such as her own GGAR (quadrillions of droids), the ROTS:ICS (quintillions of droids), and the General Grievous articles (quintillions of droids, with billions starfighters alone).

It was "rumored to be quadrillions" in the GGAR. I forget the exact quote, but it was deliberately ambiguous.

Lord_Hydronium posted:
And "Saxtonite"? ITW was written by Simon Beecroft.

ITW-AOTC named him as a consultant.

 

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Lord_Hydronium  6296 posts
Title: Literature Gardener
Registered: Jun '02
15597_Vergere
Date Posted: 4/9/06 2:25pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/9/06 2:30pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
LtNOWIS posted:
It was "rumored to be quadrillions" in the GGAR. I forget the exact quote, but it was deliberately ambiguous.

There's no ambiguity in the ICS or Lord of War. Well, other than that they're not by Traviss, which I imagine for her is enough ambiguity to ignore them. After all, she - well, let's let her explain:
Karen Traviss posted:
I think this is because I have such a different professional background to most folk, and so such a different take on life, that I see things that others don't.

Yep, canon doesn't apply to her because she's just too darn smart. It's those other people who don't see it.

LtNOWIS posted:
Lord_Hydronium posted:
And "Saxtonite"? ITW was written by Simon Beecroft.

ITW-AOTC named him as a consultant.

Which doesn't make the "Saxtonite" label any less ridiculous.

 

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nightmare1 
Registered: Jun '04
Date Posted: 4/9/06 2:40pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/24/06 10:41am (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthSapient


Bad intel isn't the problem. Even the most basic of logic tells us why the numbers doesn't work. Intricate solutions and manipulations trying to make it look better only result in a counterproductive state. A few hundred million battledroids aren't even enough to crew the CIS fleet. The blockade of Naboo alone was bigger, and that was just the barely militarized Trade Federation, CIS didn't even exist yet.

Rogue_Follower posted:
To her credit, Ms. Traviss makes it sound plausible, especially when it is pointed out that if the CIS had quadrillions of droids, then why didn't they use them in the very beginning to take Coruscant?



Because last I checked, magical teleporters weren't part of SW technology? Besides; we see the battle of Coruscant in ROTS. Are you telling me the CIS fleet just happen to be there for holidays? (rethorical).

 

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Fist_of_Mandalore  2926 posts
Registered: Mar '05
43216_Mandalorian
Date Posted: 4/9/06 2:51pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/9/06 2:54pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Fist_of_Mandalore
And there we go! From a relativly civilised debate to author bashing! Woohoo, this thread delivers! rolling_eyes

EDIT:
In addition to what Rogue posted above about ODDS, it seems silly that the SpecOps were just making droids weaker instead of out right destroying them. If they can get far nough in to be able to reprogram the assembly lines that much, they should be able to completly disable it one would think.

 

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Rogue_Follower  8554 posts
Title: Manager:
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Registered: Nov '03
6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 4/9/06 3:51pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/9/06 3:52pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rogue_Follower
The excuse they gave in the story was that it would take a lot longer (say, until a whole ton of the defective droids were in the field) for the CIS to notice that their droids were slightly weaker than it would for them to take note of a huge crater where a factory once stood.

Still, one would think that destroying the factory would be more effective. Maybe Palpy has his grubby hands in this... somehow.

 

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Mavrick889  4566 posts
Registered: Feb '99
19926_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 4/9/06 4:09pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
How long after Geonosis is this set? And which characters appear?

 

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