Master_of_Ossus posted: Clearly not, if people actually buy into the tripe that 3 million clones would've been sufficient (even though more than 3,000,000 clones participated in the Battle of Muunilist alone).
Master_of_Ossus posted: But that's not a valid comparison because of Lanchester's Laws.
Master_of_Ossus posted: That's just a myth that was perpetuated long after the War. The Immortals didn't actually work that way (which would really be a pretty stupid way to operate an elite infantry unit).
Master_of_Ossus posted: Muunilist
Master_of_Ossus posted: Nonsense. The clones enjoyed numerous advantages over the droids that allowed them to quickly overwhelm the droid foundries, not the least of which was their superiority in the early stages of the Battle and the CIS forces' attempts to retreat immediately.
Master_of_Ossus posted: There have been hundreds of battles on Earth in which both sides have brough well over 20,000 troops to the Battle itself. 20,000 is a large division--hardly sufficient for occupying a single country, much less a planet.
Master_of_Ossus posted: The last time we had this discussion, virtually everyone concluded that I was correct about the number of clones required to fight the War. I don't see that anything has changed, since then.
Lord_Hydronium posted: Yep, canon doesn't apply to her because she's just too darn smart. It's those other people who don't see it.
JimRaynor55 posted: Since when is a mere LAAT a "ship?"
posted:a cataclysmic conflict, thousands of times vaster than the opening battle on Geonosis
posted:millions of Separatist warships in the Outer Rim
Fist_of_Mandalore posted:No, I am willing to accept that maybe all the fighting wasnt done by clones. Perhaps, by some miracle, other soldiers, say perhaps Planetary Defence Forces, as mentioned in NEGVV (Juggernaut article. Says Republic recognized need for pdfs and needed heavy vehicles, ala HAV6 to aid them.) were used. Maybe Clones were the spearhead, used as the "shining white knights" of the Republic( quote from ROTS VD) And of course, the evolution into Stormtroopers, whose very job description and name is shock trooper. Hmmm, I wonder what they do?
Ender_Sai posted: Ahem; I posted: can't say if I care if 3,000,000 is accurate
I posted: can't say if I care if 3,000,000 is accurate
Ender_Sai posted:Jim; If it comes down to three million or three hundred billion, I'm not going to get impressed by stupidly large numbers.
Ender_Sai posted:I lean towards 3,000,000 because it's a supported argument to some point
Ender_Sai posted:and it also does underscore just what a massively superior force the clone army was. Similarly, I reject the notion of tens of thousands of Star Destroyers because it undervalues what one ISD can do.
Ender_Sai posted:Similary, from my experiences with the EU ranging from games to novels and comics is that a planet in SW is more or less like a country here, and that centralised governments rule the entire world (See also: Ukio). Once the clones overran a capital city, it would be a waste of manpower and training to use them to hold and garrison a city if there's fighting to be done. Hence, conscripts, volunteers.
Ender_Sai posted:A numerical advantage, as you put it, still makes a fatal flaw in assumption; something to the affect that both sides will simply face off on a battlefield that lacks cover, high ground, fortifications etc - advantages which a well trained, independently-thinking army will exploit and use to their advantage. That is, that it's presented as being somehow more like a Napoleonic-era infantry skirmish or the like rather than any modern battles, I guess - two sides, facing off on an open field, firing in a war of attrition.
Ender_Sai posted:Ultimately, it's the same for me with stormtroopers and clones; I don't honestly care what the total is, unless someone gets overzealous and starts adding zeroes to the total; anything more than a billion troopers and I go . I lean toward 3,000,000 because I think that number + the sieges going so well (cf ROTS) means the clones really where the premiere fighting force in the galaxy.
LtNOWIS posted:I can't seem to edit my post. But to back up what I was saying earlier, we see hundreds of LAATs attack Muunilinst in Chapter 2, but we don't see any Acclamators actually enter the atmosphere during the assault. The massed LAAT attack against heavy counterfire matches the NEC's description.
Ender_Sai posted: It is utterly astounding that people could not only completely miss the point of the Thermopylae example, but could then try and talk down to those who use it, like the fact you passed within lightyears of the point embodies you with righteous haughtiness. Cute, but no. Nobody brought Thermopylae up to illustrate how a small force beats a bigger one; you're a fool if you think that, plain and simply. It was brought up to illustrate what should have, in numbers, been a straight forward steam-roller push over a few hundred defenders was anything but simple.
Ender posted:It was used to illustrate the ignored point that one clone trooper is worth more, in terms of capabilies, than one battle droid. A point the crowd dazzled by unfathomable numbers of zeros as being teh win!!1! ignores often.
Ender posted:As at least one person will continue to stumble over the elusive point, I'll reiterate; as the Spartans proved themselves more than a match 1:1 for the Persians, so do clones versus battle droids. The assumption most of the Bright and Shiny Zero crowd (The Quantity > Quality crowd, or maximalists if they prefer) is that if the CIS has 100,000 battle droids deployed to a system, you need roughly 100,000 Clones to defeat them.
Ender posted:I can't say if I care if 3,000,000 is accurate, but I do think that 300,000,000,000 or however many zeros satiate those appetites for more more more, is ridiculous as I think 25,000 ISDs/sector is stupid. It's not that they couldn't afford, crew or build them; it's that if you know what a clone or star destroyer can do, you accept reasonable numbers and add the other parts of the package. RTS isn't a good background for this sort of thing. E_S
Ender_Sai posted: Plus, 1,000 Acclamators would fast be redundant because of the introduction of the Venator, which emphasised more than anything capital ship combat and starfighter deployment, which was a weakness on the Republic's part prior to ROTS. E_S
razzy1319 posted: You'd think that if the CIS outnumbered their opponents 300 billion to one they'd be emphasizing that, not talking about how they're outnumbered. It called Playing with people sympathies which was used during WW2 newsreels... Funny how Palpy might have used the same thing using the quintillion numbers
JimRaynor55 posted: Let's assume that 30 million troops are needed to conquer and occupy a hostile world. This is probably an understatement, since the world wars involved far more troops than that.
JimRaynor55 posted: If the Republic needs to garrison just 2,000 planets (this includes defending their own territory as well as occupying conquered CIS worlds), that's 60 billion troops. This is a ridiculous understatement, since the Republics has millions of worlds, some of these planets have populations in the trillions, and the Separatists talked about the addition of thousands of worlds in AOTC. 3 million is 1/20,000 of that. As in, there's 20,000 regular troops for every clone. If you apply that to an organization like the US military, which has about 1.4 million active troops, you get...71 guys. The real US military has tens of thousands of special forces. But the clones aren't supposed to be nearly as uncommon and elite as special forces. ARC Troopers and Clone Commandoes are special forces, but the rest of the Grand Army fights like a normal military force, taking part in massive invasions and occupying territory. So, even under extremely ridiculous underestimates of overall troop strength, 3 million is way too small.
JimRaynor55 posted: This idea also contradicts the Clone Wars as depicted in the movies, games, cartoon, etc. where we see Clones doing ALL the fighting in some battles.
razzy1319 posted:Master_of_Ossus posted: But that's not a valid comparison because of Lanchester's Laws. Note that Lanchester's Square Law does not apply to technological force, only numerical force Granted, its from wiki, but the fact that the clones were more technologically superior to droids and that they were backed by a force beyond technology then how do we calculate that?
Razzy posted:I thought stormtroopers were given the same ideals. faceless and infinite indeed.
Razzy posted:Master_of_Ossus posted: Muunilist One of the other guys answered this.
Razzy posted:Told L_H the same thing. what could have prevented the 3 million clones from doing so or having the same advantages over the next 6 months to a year in a galactic scale?
Razzy posted:We've seen One Imperial Garrison with less than a thousand men guarding One planet. Not a backwater.
Razzy posted:We concluded with 3 mill being the first year. Using the ratio given by the article multiplied by four for the droid numbers. after The first year exponentially expanded the numbers until the droids reached their quintillions mark. I mean, I concluded with that and you with your own stuff.
razzy1319 posted:3 million in the first year There stick it in your heads...
JimRaynor55 posted: Thats an overstatement we see garrisons with no more than a thousand troops. The Star Wars Galaxy has far better mobilization techniques than our world wars.
JimRaynor55 posted:The fact that nobody cares for the first anniversary of geonosis is that the first year is just that, 3 million clones versus hundreds of millions of battledroids. It elevates to the point where there are billions of clones versus trillions of droids by the end.