razzy1319 posted:

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nightmare1 posted:

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Because last I checked, magical teleporters weren't part of SW technology? Besides; we see the battle of Coruscant in ROTS. Are you telling me the CIS fleet just happen to be there for holidays? (rethorical).

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Now if you put two and two together, Billions of battledroids at the beginning of the war with thousands of TFBBs, what the hell took them so long to attack coruscant? My answer: Planetary Defense Forces that narrow the line towards Coruscant.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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The scale of the difference. Just because giving me a baseball bat might allow me to defeat another man in a physical battle does not mean that a baseball bat will let me kill thousands of people in such a confrontation. Moreover, we observe other instances (such as Hypori) in which the CIS enjoyed similar advantages and routed Republic forces--it is not realistic nor logical to assume that because one side enjoyed some advantages in a single battle that these advantages would have ALWAYS been with them in a conflict that encompassed many dozens of engagements.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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Were the clones even technologically better than the droids? Regardless, it's clear from the AotC novelization statement that a B-1 was nearly an even match for a clone and an SBD was slightly superior to a clone that the clones were not massively superior to the droids--certainly not enough to account for a several trillion fold force-multiplier.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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Possibly, but I don't see what that has to do with the Immortals and our discussion of Thermopylae.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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The only way it's been "answered" is by lying about what is seen on-screen, ignoring the presence of SPHA-T's on the ground in an effort to claim that no Acclamators landed, and twisting the canon to claim that "assault ships" used by the Republic are not, in fact, the same thing as "Republic Assault Ships," and that instead they refer to speeders that were used to insert a small force of infantry. Hardly an overwhelming rebuttal.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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Which garrison was that? And anyhow, why does it matter? The US does not maintain an even distribution of troops and military material across all US territory. If there are large geographic variations in the density of military manpower in real life, it would tend to preclude the use of very small sample sizes in determining the average Imperial garrison strength.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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Are you arguing that a single garrison represents the force required to conquer a planet? Besides, it took the Trade Federation tens of thousands of battle droids to occupy Naboo--a virtually undefended planet. It similarly took "thousands of battle droids" to occupy a single level of a single city on Utapau, and a comparable number of clones to clear them out.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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I can see that the conflict intensified later, but three million is even too small for the first year, given NEGC.

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razzy1319 posted:

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Why can't they take full advantage of it for, lets say, a full year(Muunilist) before the CIS takes the bat and throws it back at them(Hypori)

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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A clone can change tactics from experience the moment his current one doesnt work, a droid either has to be reprogrammed, upgraded later on, or follows its options rather than create new ones(Like the Trifighter chasing Anakin).

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Razzy posted:

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I'm not overpowering the clones just powering down the droids.

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Razzy posted:

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you see two acclamators on the surface for the SPHA-Ts, and it is called Low Altitude Assault Transport or Republic Gunship and it is seen by the hundreds.

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Razzy posted:

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Sorry my mistake, it was a backwater planet but the Garrison was responsible for more than the planet it is on, probably a large area of space around it.

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Razzy posted:

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May I ask which garrison was manned by clones during the first year of the war?

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Razzy posted:

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Thousands is what I'm shooting for as a viable invasion force since its the most that we see in all the novels, cartoons and comics.

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Razzy posted:

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The fact that some people can view Hundreds of Republic Assault Ships as Republic Gunships on this board alone, makes me hopeful that it is so.


Nightmare1:

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razzy1319 posted:

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Just thought of something for the the simultaneous Battle of DanDacMuunHypori...

Does it happen exactly a year after geo? If so, How else would you use a a newly minted spaarti clone army beyond the 3 million of Kamino? A major attack on a major sep financier and Hypori(although I dont know what the tactical advantage of Hypori is).

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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More importantly, there is no discernable reason why the advantages present on Geonosis (surprise, the CIS withdrawing its best forces immediately and protect the leadership, etc.) would have been exclusively on the side of the Republic during the first few months of the conflict. Furthermore, even Hypori is much too early--if, in fact, the War were even by that point then the Republic's three million man clone army would have been irrelevant from then on.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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Even if the droids cannot change tactics from experience, this still does not provide the clones with the kind of technical superiority required to be a serious threat to the droids. I can usually dominate computer players in a number of video games, but if you put me up against thousands of computer players simultaneously then almost regardless of how crumby I perceived them to be in one-on-one battles they would still mop the floor with me.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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By ignoring AotC.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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no one with any military knowledge would describe the terms as being remotely comparable.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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In that case I must repeat my question: which one was it?

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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So you are claiming that the entire clone army was used in the Battle of Muunilist?

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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Thousands of troops will let you take a single level of a single city of a single planet that has had essentially no time to fortify itself (to the point where clones can insert into the enemy HQ directly from the air!). What's more, it has been demonstrated that texts like the NEGC require more troops than this.

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Master_of_Ossus posted:

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It happens .3 years (3.6 months) into the War--not enough time for new clones to be grown. Dantooine was strategically important to the Battle of Muunilist because it could have been used as a staging area for a CIS counter-offensive. Mon Calamari took place concurrently, but was a separate battle. Hypori was also a major droid foundry world. Also note that, again, the Republic forces that we saw destroyed on the planet (totalling several Acclamators) were but a fraction of the Republic's total force. According to the Databank, "Disguised orbital mines crippled much of the taskforce before it even made planetfall."

Clearly, the three million number contradicts these facts.

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Fingolfin_Noldor posted:

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I would like to point out that it takes the Kaminoans 6 years at least to raise one clone child.

And the Clone war were 3 years long. Perhaps that will add some perspective.

It's quite difficult to raise billions of clones in a year or two. The Confederacy could probably do 1 billion droids in 1 mth given how fast they worked at Geonosis.

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Pershing posted:

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Fingolfin_Noldor posted:

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I would like to point out that it takes the Kaminoans 6 years at least to raise one clone child.

And the Clone war were 3 years long. Perhaps that will add some perspective.

It's quite difficult to raise billions of clones in a year or two. The Confederacy could probably do 1 billion droids in 1 mth given how fast they worked at Geonosis.

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Didn't Spaarti manage to cut production times of clones to a year or so though? And added to this, it was mentioned in AotC that the Kaminoans were cloners, (I realize this has been pointed out many times before) and thus opening the possibility of other cloners. Ones that didn't take as long as the Kaminoans, and thus potentially shoring up the Republic's numbers.

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Fingolfin_Noldor posted:

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There were only thousands of Spaarti cloning cylinders, and it took 1/10 of the time to grow a clone. The original factory that produced them was destroyed. There was probably a failure factor that needed to be considered especially considering what was said in the Thrawn trilogy.

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JimRaynor55 posted:

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Ender_Sai posted:

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Ahem;

I posted:

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can't say if I care if 3,000,000 is accurate

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You said it all right here. Thank you for admitting that you don't care about making sense.

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JimRaynor posted:

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Ender_Sai posted:

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Jim; If it comes down to three million or three hundred billion, I'm not going to get impressed by stupidly large numbers.

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Billions of soldiers in a galaxy with millions of worlds is "stupidly large?" No, 3 million troops is just stupidly small.

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JimRaynor posted:

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Ender_Sai posted:

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I lean towards 3,000,000 because it's a supported argument to some point

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Only in articles written by people with no understanding of scale. It disregards the portrayal in other official sources which aren't so stupid.

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Jim posted:

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You need to be able to overcome BILLIONS to one odds in order to show how l33t you are? Real elite forces can't do that, they'll have trouble with 10 to 1 odds. Do you think the US Army Rangers suck because individual soldiers can't take on the population of planets?

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Jim posted:

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We see in official sources that clones ARE used to garrison planets.

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QuentinGeorge posted:

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So, let me get this straight, a problem that could have been well and truly solved neatly by retconning one set of numbers.....has now been well and truly FUBARED by retconning an entirely separate (reasonable) set of numbers.

Yay for the EU.

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Rogue_Follower posted:

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...I see the story has created quite a stir over at sd.net, as expected.

Anyone miss the old days of the SSD debates?

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