Author Topic: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
AdmiralWesJanson  4693 posts
Registered: May '05
41081_Kuat Drive Yards Insignia
Date Posted: 4/5/06 7:24am Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:
Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:
In fact of those, only DoR shows any human crewmembers onboard Republic ships at all, and even then it's a small fraction of the clone crew.
That should be "non-clone", to avoid confusion. Clones are still human, after all.


Are they, really?

 

-----signature-----
Duke of Corellia
Join the Corellian Browncoats in their fight against the evil Alliance!
Fix the K-Wing!
No more XJs! Make the next X-Wing a T-65K!
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
MercenaryAce  2766 posts
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 4/5/06 12:57pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
ROTS. The bridge crew of the VSD Vader wason was entirerly non-clone.

 

-----signature-----
"I am no man...I am a space station!"
Another star wars ships, droids and troops site:
http://armiesofstarwars.com/
It does have info found nowhere
Move all sig, for great justice
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Quiet_Mandalorian  8380 posts
Registered: Apr '05
40335_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 4/5/06 5:56pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
AdmiralWesJanson posted:
Are they, really?
Common sense and the Databank say they are, and I'm inclined to agree. tongue

 

-----signature-----
Fey'la was right! Bring Asyr Sei'lar to justice!
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
LtNOWIS  2473 posts
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 4/5/06 6:11pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/5/06 6:32pm (2 edits total) Edited By: LtNOWIS
Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:
RogueWompRat posted:
If they're using clones as gunners for Venators, there's going to be wayyy more then 3 million.


Not just gunners from ROTS. At least three sources - the show, Obsession, and Dreadnaughts of Rendili - all show clones being used for positions in the Republic Navy that in later times would get taken by human officers. The cartoon also shows that at least one Venator was entirely crewed by clones. In fact of those, only DoR shows any human crewmembers onboard Republic ships at all, and even then it's a small fraction of the clone crew.

Actually, one of the Boba Fett books had Republic Naval crews in it, but because it was a medley of aliens in purple uniforms, I'm inclined to believe they were from an absorbed sector or planetary navy. Naval clones were also in The Cestus Deception and Triple Zero. Non-clone officers are in The Cestus Deception, Medstar, and elsewhere.

Anyways, there have been 3 major explanations for the clone numbers thing.
1) There was massive recruitment. (I forget the exact source, but it certainly makes sense)
2) The "militia model" used on Ord Cestus was actually quite common. Using that, a couple jedi and a handful of clones clones can take a planet. It also mentions them using it on Malastare and Giju, with it failing on Haruun Kal. (NEC) It actually says that militia are the unsung heroes of the Clone Wars. (Although, Voren was a Rebel, so he'd be biased towards that viewpoint.)
3) Spaarti clones. Apparantly, the Republic made heavy use of thousands of Spaarti cylinders (NEC)

Edit: 2 more, less good reasons
4) Clone awesomeness (Insider 84)
5) Freedom's Sons was doing some fighting. (NEC)

Anyways, do we know if 3 million clones was actually Traviss's idea, or whether she just had to work it into canon? I'm still against the number, but I've really gotten used to it.

AdmiralWesJanson posted:

Are they, really?

Yes. See my Medstar quote. "Clone are people" has been a consistent theme in Clone Wars novels.

 

-----signature-----
A little bit about me: http://tinyurl.com/bnmcck flag
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Sinrebirth  18925 posts
Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC
Registered: Nov '04
47748_Dath Vectivus
Date Posted: 4/5/06 6:59pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Thrawn McEwok posted:
Sr: I'd look at it a slightly different way, actually: they could advance through territory, but they couldn't bring the Republic to decisive battle...

Could you argue that the Republic fought the Clone Wars much like the Rebellion fought the Galactic Civil War? raised_brow thinking grin

And we see several ships with non-clone command crews outside Dreadnaughts of Rendili, including Pellaeon's ship in Bloodlines and Sagoro Autem's in The Siege of Saleucami...

- The Imperial Ewok


Yes, I would argue that. Excepting the obvious fact the Republic had more strong points defined by Core Founders (Territory from Duro to Coruscant down the Perlemian to Ralltiir were fortress worlds - planetary shields, armadas, etc), Priority Sectors (Sesswenna, Halla (possibly) Rodia?) and various isolated fortress worlds and reinforced staging points (Kamino, New Holstice, later Boz Pity).

The only way the CIS could actually hurt the Republic was to lunge at Republic fleets working alongside Republic Priority Scetors or fortress worlds. Attacks that, logically, are needlessly costly because they involve the entirety of a sectors resources, rather than the CIS picking apart each sector planet-by-planet.

The only way the CIS could win was to draw the Republic forces into sieges and trounce them, thus the longetivity of the battles like Atraken, Kashyyyk, Mirgoshir, Null, Metalorn, Ando, Drongar, Sluis Van, etc. The problem being, the Republic could decide where to strike.

 

-----signature-----
Darth Insipid
Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo
Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up!
Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang!
http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Lord_Hydronium  6273 posts
Title: Literature Gardener
Registered: Jun '02
15597_Vergere
Date Posted: 4/5/06 7:26pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
LtNOWIS posted:
Anyways, there have been 3 major explanations for the clone numbers thing.

4. It's just plain wrong. Forget the logistics of fighting a galactic war with a smaller fighting force than the UK in World War I, forget the fact that the Republic is facing 300 million - 1 odds at best, forget the use of logic at all (Traviss has!). 3,000,000 or 6,000,000 or whatever is expressly contradicted in the canon:
Inside the Worlds of AOTC posted:
The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluation.

That millions refers to "divisions", notice. Millions of divisions is billions of clones. They compiled several more quotes at Stardestroyer.net as well, though I don't have them at the moment; one of them even mentions Republic forces outnumbering the CIS.

 

-----signature-----
Great midis have little midis
Swimming round inside 'em
And little midis have lesser midis
And so ad infinitum.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
LtNOWIS  2473 posts
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 4/5/06 7:33pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Lord_Hydronium posted:
LtNOWIS posted:
Anyways, there have been 3 major explanations for the clone numbers thing.

4. It's just plain wrong. Forget the logistics of fighting a galactic war with a smaller fighting force than the UK in World War I, forget the fact that the Republic is facing 300 million - 1 odds at best, forget the use of logic at all (Traviss has!). 3,000,000 or 6,000,000 or whatever is expressly contradicted in the canon:
Inside the Worlds of AOTC posted:
The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluation.

That millions refers to "divisions", notice. Millions of divisions is billions of clones. They compiled several more quotes at Stardestroyer.net as well, though I don't have them at the moment; one of them even mentions Republic forces outnumbering the CIS.

I'm not saying it works, I'm just repeating explanations in the newer canon. The fact is, newer stuff has backed up and tried to rationalize the 3 million clones number.

 

-----signature-----
A little bit about me: http://tinyurl.com/bnmcck flag
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Thrawn McEwok  13601 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: May '00
43231_Chiss Ewok
Date Posted: 4/5/06 7:55pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
LtNOWIS posted:
"Clone are people" has been a consistent theme in Clone Wars novels.


Pick your least favourite real-life military "bad guys"; they were people too. whistling tongue

Sinrebirth posted:
Yes, I would argue that. Excepting the obvious fact the Republic had more strong points defined by Core Founders (Territory from Duro to Coruscant down the Perlemian to Ralltiir were fortress worlds - planetary shields, armadas, etc), Priority Sectors (Sesswenna, Halla (possibly) Rodia?) and various isolated fortress worlds and reinforced staging points (Kamino, New Holstice, later Boz Pity).

The only way the CIS could actually hurt the Republic was to lunge at Republic fleets working alongside Republic Priority Scetors or fortress worlds. Attacks that, logically, are needlessly costly because they involve the entirety of a sectors resources, rather than the CIS picking apart each sector planet-by-planet.

The only way the CIS could win was to draw the Republic forces into sieges and trounce them, thus the longetivity of the battles like Atraken, Kashyyyk, Mirgoshir, Null, Metalorn, Ando, Drongar, Sluis Van, etc. The problem being, the Republic could decide where to strike.


Is the term "priority sector" used so early? But you're right - the Republic has more to defend than the Rebellion; although I wonder if that's a distraction from the inherrent strength shared by the Republic and Alliance, namely their ability to withdraw and lead on their attackers...

Lord_Hydronium posted:
That millions refers to "divisions", notice. Millions of divisions is billions of clones. They compiled several more quotes at Stardestroyer.net as well, though I don't have them at the moment; one of them even mentions Republic forces outnumbering the CIS.


Language is a wonderfully flexible thing - you're horribly over-imposing your preferred meaning to insist that "millions" refers to divisions, rather than clones...

Quite apart from anything else, this reference looks like a calque on a line in AotC: "Two hundred thousand units are ready, with another million well on the way." The "first batch of divisions" relates to the "two hundred thousand units", and two hundred thousand divisions wouldn't be a "batch"... tongue

- The Imperial Ewok

 

-----signature-----
A/T = OTP cool
:===8[#]8===:
Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Lord_Hydronium  6273 posts
Title: Literature Gardener
Registered: Jun '02
15597_Vergere
Date Posted: 4/5/06 7:59pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/5/06 8:02pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
But nothing distinctly says that the entire clone contingent of the Grand Army of the Republic is only 3,000,000 strong, just that a unit called a "Grand Army" consists of that (that is, that's the lower bound). On the other hand, a lower bound of a few billion is established by the ITW quote. Thus, if one number is to be retconned, it's the number that can be, that is, the smaller one. There are a few options: a Grand Army is a subdivision of the whole GAR, the "Grand Army" is a small group akin to the Stormtroopers that serves as a specialized strike force while the other trillions or more are the run-of-the-mill infantry and naval crew, the "Grand Army" is the nickname for only those clones raised in the Tipoca City facility, etc. The three million number isn't ignored, but it's placed in a more accurate context.

Thrawn McEwok posted:
Language is a wonderfully flexible thing - you're horribly over-imposing your preferred meaning to insist that "millions" refers to divisions, rather than clones...

Wrong. "More" requires a noun phrase as an antecedent; the only one is "clone divisions". "Clone" can not be the antecedent, as it is an adjective in this sentence. Language is flexible. That doesn't mean you can redefine English grammar to suit your whim.

 

-----signature-----
Great midis have little midis
Swimming round inside 'em
And little midis have lesser midis
And so ad infinitum.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
LtNOWIS  2473 posts
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 4/5/06 8:03pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Well, I doubt the Spaarti clones I just mentioned were part of the 3 million. By the last year of the war, they made up a significant portion of clone forces.

 

-----signature-----
A little bit about me: http://tinyurl.com/bnmcck flag
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Lord_Hydronium  6273 posts
Title: Literature Gardener
Registered: Jun '02
15597_Vergere
Date Posted: 4/5/06 8:05pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/5/06 8:05pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
But according to ITW, Kaminoan clones alone numbered at least in the billions.

 

-----signature-----
Great midis have little midis
Swimming round inside 'em
And little midis have lesser midis
And so ad infinitum.
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Sinrebirth  18925 posts
Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC
Registered: Nov '04
47748_Dath Vectivus
Date Posted: 4/5/06 8:08pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Thrawn McEwok posted:

Sinrebirth posted:
Yes, I would argue that. Excepting the obvious fact the Republic had more strong points defined by Core Founders (Territory from Duro to Coruscant down the Perlemian to Ralltiir were fortress worlds - planetary shields, armadas, etc), Priority Sectors (Sesswenna, Halla (possibly) Rodia?) and various isolated fortress worlds and reinforced staging points (Kamino, New Holstice, later Boz Pity).

The only way the CIS could actually hurt the Republic was to lunge at Republic fleets working alongside Republic Priority Scetors or fortress worlds. Attacks that, logically, are needlessly costly because they involve the entirety of a sectors resources, rather than the CIS picking apart each sector planet-by-planet.

The only way the CIS could win was to draw the Republic forces into sieges and trounce them, thus the longetivity of the battles like Atraken, Kashyyyk, Mirgoshir, Null, Metalorn, Ando, Drongar, Sluis Van, etc. The problem being, the Republic could decide where to strike.


Is the term "priority sector" used so early? But you're right - the Republic has more to defend than the Rebellion; although I wonder if that's a distraction from the inherrent strength shared by the Republic and Alliance, namely their ability to withdraw and lead on their attackers...

- The Imperial Ewok


By Month 24, Priority Sectors are mentioned, actually. So probably somewhat beforehand.

 

-----signature-----
Darth Insipid
Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo
Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up!
Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang!
http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
AdmiralWesJanson  4693 posts
Registered: May '05
41081_Kuat Drive Yards Insignia
Date Posted: 4/5/06 8:52pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Clones can be people without being human...

 

-----signature-----
Duke of Corellia
Join the Corellian Browncoats in their fight against the evil Alliance!
Fix the K-Wing!
No more XJs! Make the next X-Wing a T-65K!
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Thrawn McEwok  13601 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: May '00
43231_Chiss Ewok
Date Posted: 4/5/06 8:57pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/5/06 9:07pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
Lord_Hydronium posted:
Wrong. "More" requires a noun phrase as an antecedent; the only one is "clone divisions". "Clone" can not be the antecedent, as it is an adjective in this sentence. Language is flexible. That doesn't mean you can redefine English grammar to suit your whim.


People don't always follow the rules precisely, even in 'correct' prose; and context always plays a role in defining meaning - which is what I mean by language being flexible. Can you insist on a punctiliously grammatical interpretation if a less rigid one produces better sense when compared with other relevant statements?

Consider this sentence:

The first batch of conscript divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluation.

Gramatically, the subject of "millions" might be "divisions"; common sense requires us to - at the least! - consider the possibility that the subject is actually "conscripts"...

Lord_Hydronium posted:
But according to ITW, Kaminoan clones alone numbered at least in the billions.


Is that a seperate quote? Or just a restatement of your interpretation of the one above?

Sinrebirth posted:
By Month 24, Priority Sectors are mentioned, actually. So probably somewhat beforehand.


Oh? What's the reference? raised_brow thinking

- The Imperial Ewok

 

-----signature-----
A/T = OTP cool
:===8[#]8===:
Kyp/Jaina fans: stand up and be counted!
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Sinrebirth  18925 posts
Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC
Registered: Nov '04
47748_Dath Vectivus
Date Posted: 4/5/06 9:06pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
MedStar : 1. I've lost the book in my boxes.

But I recall it mentioned Priority Sector High Commanders, when introducing Admiral Bleyd of Saki.

 

-----signature-----
Darth Insipid
Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo
Missing Chapters of Invincible; Chapter 7.5 is up!
Jacen and Tassels; Lecersen; Syal; Wedge and Wes and... Tarfang!
http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
Locked Topic | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History