Author Topic: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Sinrebirth 
Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC
Registered: Nov '04
48116_Jacen Solo (41909)
Date Posted: 4/6/06 12:37am Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
razzy1319 posted:
Sinrebirth posted:
QuentinGeorge posted:
It is of interesting to note that no one here defending the "3 million" absurdity would agree with it had, say, a random poster said it....


Um, Quentin, thats a fact. Because, you know, its a random poster!?!

If the guys up above accept Karen Traviss's answers, I'm fine with it. We just have to work these facts into continuity.

True enough, 000, but that could be more machines than troops, more troops than machines, fighters galore, or gunships galore, and so on. Which, as the episode attests, we have Acclmators filled with fighters, hundreds of the things. And then Acclamators filled with Larti's.

So shrug. Its not an accurate source, really.


And conscripts!!!! grin


Yeppy.

No one believes 3 million was it, for the war, just it represented a strategic reserve.

 

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Excellence 
Registered: Jul '02
6338_New Republic Seal
Date Posted: 4/6/06 12:39am Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/6/06 12:41am (1 edits total) Edited By: Excellence

I see little issue with the 3 million.

What Sadow says the war must be galaxywide?

Sorry, but Bullyak's porking daughters there must be hundreds of hotspots at any one time. Fortunately, this clone war series was superficial enough to disinterest me from serious interest or I'd deflector shield some of these quaint arguments into WW1 trench mud. The logic underling some of the insistence equates with the same logic Jedi must act precisely as their movie images, without any blasphemous diviation. With such underlining foundation I won't even bother entering the arena.

3 million is low, all right, but it's also very justifiable. And there's another reason.

It's called dramatic tension. When isn't the heroic side outnumbered against enemy forces? There's more imagery here than meets the eye, bespectacled or otherwise.

 

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000 
Registered: Oct '05
41423_Stormtrooper
Date Posted: 4/6/06 12:40am Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Sinrebirth posted:
No one believes 3 million was it, for the war, just it represented a strategic reserve.


Traviss does, though, hence the problem.

I don't feel the need to bend over backwards in order to incorporate a number that was wrong from the get go when it's easier to just override it. Hydronium's "Council army" fix is the only one I've heard so far that makes sense.

 

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Sinrebirth 
Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC
Registered: Nov '04
48116_Jacen Solo (41909)
Date Posted: 4/6/06 1:04am Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
000 posted:
Sinrebirth posted:
No one believes 3 million was it, for the war, just it represented a strategic reserve.


Traviss does, though, hence the problem.

I don't feel the need to bend over backwards in order to incorporate a number that was wrong from the get go when it's easier to just override it. Hydronium's "Council army" fix is the only one I've heard so far that makes sense.


Discounting the NEC one, or the Planetary Militia one, then?

And what Traviss 'believes' means little to actual continuity, if something within continuity says otherwise.

Very true, Excellence-Sama, indeed. Though it was nice to see you appear in the arena, and vanish like a true Jedi mage. Good to hear a new opinion, once in a while tongue

 

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Ender_Sai 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Feb '01
44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 4/6/06 3:11am Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
I feel it's worth noting that the most tactical able of the writers - Zahn, K-Mac and Traviss, for example - favour low-end numbers and tactics whilst the less tactically or strategically able authors prefer huge numbers...

Just sayin'...

E_S

 

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Excellence 
Registered: Jul '02
6338_New Republic Seal
Date Posted: 4/6/06 3:39am Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/6/06 3:48am (1 edits total) Edited By: Excellence

I dislike huge armies. It's impersonal. You can't show it from a front-bench perspective. It becomes breezy. Unifying Force and Destiny's Way were representative of that. You can only tell it, not show it.

The best was Deadhouse Gates. There were 2 seat-gripping ground battles, and Erikson positioned the historian atop a hill so the battle could be showed realistically. It was a ripper. grin

Showing, worse, telling battles from a pathetic starfighter Ejector "Tomer Darpen" Seat perspective is bullcrap, and will quickly dissolve into the nebulous realm of unrealism. You only know what you can see from an irritatingly segmented canopy, and a blink-dot sensor monitor. Realistically, you can't show too broad a battle but usually end up doing anyway.

For that's what Homeworld 2 was: you looked at a blink-dot radar screen all game long, don't deny it, you back-scratching wolverines. You want to see incoming enemy as far afield as possible, you switch to the radar screen.

It's just dramatic suspense, nothing more.

The Republic was outgunned by the Malak Empire
The Republic was outgunned by Confederacy
The Rebellion was outgunned by Imperium
The New Republic was outgunned by Screaming Vong
The Hardcover Hegemony will be outgunned by the Paperbackers

You see the pattern? Struth the truth, even the Starcraft games do it. You always start out outgunned. That's how it is; how it will always be. And a thousand examples outside Star Wars. Everyone does it. It's like drawing beautiful people in comics by default. I likes it not. That's what Rattleshirt said.

"The crow's a tricksy bird," the lord o' bones used to say. "I likes him not."

 

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Thrawn McEwok 
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: May '00
43231_Chiss Ewok
Date Posted: 4/6/06 6:49am Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/6/06 7:27am (1 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
Sinrebirth posted:
MedStar : 1. I've lost the book in my boxes.

But I recall it mentioned Priority Sector High Commanders, when introducing Admiral Bleyd of Saki.


Gah. Brilliant. So now we need to square that with the old RPG stuff... doh! grin

Lord_Hydronium posted:
Oh, OK, so I guess we can make up whatever we want. Well, people don't always type precisely, therefore the 3,000,000 mention was a typo. Hey, that was easy! Or since language is flexible, we can redefine "million" to mean "trillion", unless you're one of those people who insists on using the precise and real definition of words.


I'm entirely prepared to tweak the material - you might have noticed that I recently suggested retconning overall Star Destroyer numbers to be counted in base three! But I normally... here, with references to three million clone troopers, and a reference to "millions" in training to join the original "clone divisions", the most likely overall meaning behind the collected statements seems clear enough: three million clone troopers...

It's possible that "three million" doesn't mean 3,000,000, and I'm prepared to see what creative retconns are produced... but as it stands, it's grotesquely unsafe to insist that three million is wrong; rather, that passing incidence of inexact grammar falls (easily!) into line with the rest of the narrative!

Lord_Hydronium posted:
Out of curiosity, why are you so intent on retconning to fit the lower number, given that you have to twist or reinterpret almost every other reference to fit, as well as make up a bunch of "well, it might be.." statements? I've already given three separate ways you can reinterpret the smaller number so as not to entirely invalidate it.


Three million is a repeated, canonical number? All of your vague allusions can be interpreted to fit easily with it?

You're the one who's intent on retconning a canon number; from my POV, it looks like you're the one who's twisting stuff. You have explicit statements of a GAR of 3 million, and statements that in the light of that can be interpreted in complementary ways, but you're insisting on interpreting them in contradictory ways (which is, I remind you, an interpretation ultimately motivated by and predicated on your opinion that such an army is "impossible"); and you're proposing ways to "not to entirely invalidate" the three-million number, which certainly preserves three million as a number, but IMHO transfers it into a context not warranted by the canon statements on what "three million clones" means...

Lord_Hydronium posted:
Wrong. Syntax is not a "let's pretend" game - English is structured a specific way, and no matter how much you want to, you can not simply make up new rules of a language to fit your interpretation. That sentence is no different from the original - "conscript" is an adjective, and "more" as an indefinite pronoun can only take a noun antecedent. End of story.


Not at all. An ideal "correct" English would conform precisely to whichever syntactic rules the judge(s) deemed correct, certainly; but in practice, people don't speak or write this ideal, perfect language - and there's more than one subtly-varying set of rules. Simply stating something doesn't make it true.

I can see what you're trying to say - I just think you're pushing it too far in this context... slightly clumsy grammar is a sufficient explanation for the discrepancy...

Lord_Hydronium posted:
Dooku himself says that they're outnumbered. Hmmm... Wait, someone says, it says "the forces on our borders", so that doesn't count all the droids. So apparently, out of a quintillion battle droids he apparently deployed less than three million to the front. That's three trillionths of the entire droid army.


Battledroids. Are. Crap.

Why can't people wrap their heads round this?

Is this an infantry war? Not that I noticed.

What I want to know is the balance of things like AT-TEs and AATs, Vulture droids and Y-wings...

The Republic doesn't use a small strategic force, it overwhelms the CIS forces "with sheer numbers". A capital world of one of the CIS founders, no less, and the Republic has enough troops dedicated to one battle to overwhelm them. And a good chunk of the forces didn't make it, which is an awfully large casualty rate for a three million clone army that's supposed to last the entire war.

It's a pretty rhetorical, and fundamentally in-universe source, that gives no precise figures for the numbers deployed, and can be interpreted in terms of those that do (specifically, the 200,000 units as of AotC, rising to 1.2 million and later a total GAR strength of three million) - now of course, you can question those precise numbers based on your own inferences from imprecise material, but you should recognize that your opinion is just that: your opinion...

tongue

Garrisons are fun to look at too; LOE has 500,000 troopers dispatched from Coruscant's own garrison, which is reflected upon as being half of the total garrison. So that's a third of the entire GAR not fighting, assuming no other important world is garrisoned.

If that's what canon says, that's what canon says - though I don't think there's anything that says that the GAR hadn't grown by that stage in the war. Given the fluid nature of the war, defending the capital is likely a very high priority, and it makes even little more sense when we realise that the Coruscant garrison serves as a central transit node for the GAR; it's the permanent home of General Zey's special forces brigade, and also the place where front-line units like the 41st Elite are sent on furlough when they're not fighting...

As we see in LOE, it also serves as a strategic reserve, from which a sizeable chunk of the GAR can be deployed at very short notice...

Sinrebirth posted:
No one believes 3 million was it, for the war, just it represented a strategic reserve.


I'm entirely prepared to accept it as the total strength - though I'm also interested to see if any creative retconns are introduced...

Sinrebirth posted:
And what Traviss 'believes' means little to actual continuity, if something within continuity says otherwise.


And right now, three million is the number in "actual continuity"... tongue

What fanboys believe can't - or at least, shouldn't - change canon...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

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MercenaryAce 
Registered: Aug '05
8117_Y-Wing Pilot
Date Posted: 4/6/06 7:14am Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
They compiled several more quotes at Stardestroyer.net as well, though I don't have them at the moment; one of them even mentions Republic forces outnumbering the CIS.

The idea of the Republic outnumbering the CIS is far more absurd than 3 million clones. It takes ten years to make a clone. it takes a few hours to make a droid, at the most.

 

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LtNOWIS 
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 4/6/06 11:40am Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Well, if you count existing planetary militias, the Republic could have more people. The total Republic forces, according to canon, is GAR (3 million) + Republic Navy (clones and non-clones) + Sector/Planetary forces (Infantry and Naval) + Huge number of Spaarti clones + Jedi + Judicial Forces/recruits + indiginous forces.

Back to battle droids being crap, they fall apart pretty quickly when they don't have maintenence (Jedi Trial). I doubt the CIS cared deeply about recovering them when they left a planet. IMO, 3 million clones is still bad, but the explanations help a lot.

 

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Fist_of_Mandalore 
Registered: Mar '05
43216_Mandalorian
Date Posted: 4/6/06 12:26pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Oh, and to the people saying "the GAR needs more than 3 million just to man the ships" I wasnt aware that the Grand ARMY of the Republic was supposed to do naval detail wink

 

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Thrawn McEwok 
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: May '00
43231_Chiss Ewok
Date Posted: 4/6/06 1:17pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
LtNOWIS posted:
+ Republic Navy (clones and non-clones)


*facepalm*

This, of course, is something. Capital ship crews aren't part of the GAR... quite possibly aren't Kaminoan, or even Jango... whistling

I like! grin

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Sinrebirth 
Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC
Registered: Nov '04
48116_Jacen Solo (41909)
Date Posted: 4/6/06 1:40pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Thrawn McEwok posted:
Sinrebirth posted:
MedStar : 1. I've lost the book in my boxes.

But I recall it mentioned Priority Sector High Commanders, when introducing Admiral Bleyd of Saki.


Gah. Brilliant. So now we need to square that with the old RPG stuff... doh! grin

Sinrebirth posted:
And what Traviss 'believes' means little to actual continuity, if something within continuity says otherwise.


And right now, three million is the number in "actual continuity"... tongue

What fanboys believe can't - or at least, shouldn't - change canon...

- The Imperial Ewok


To the RPG stuff. - rolling_eyes What have I done?

To the Traviss stuff, I meant that although she believes thats all the Republic had, the NEC gives us conscripts and planetary militias, and the Hero of Cartao short stories give us Spaarti.

Does Traviss actually explicitly say, in her source, thats it?

And even if she does, more sources contradict her than not, so that usually means the original source is superceded

 

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Ive_Got_Two_Legs 
Registered: Jul '05
7434_Gilad Pellaeon
Date Posted: 4/6/06 1:53pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Thrawn McEwok posted:
*facepalm*

This, of course, is something. Capital ship crews aren't part of the GAR... quite possibly aren't Kaminoan, or even Jango... whistling

I like! grin

- The Imperial Ewok


They wear the clonetrooper armor, though, something I wouldn't expect Navy officers to wear. I mean, the stormies in the OT aren't part of the Navy, but they're on capital ships.

 

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Fist_of_Mandalore 
Registered: Mar '05
43216_Mandalorian
Date Posted: 4/6/06 1:59pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:
Thrawn McEwok posted:
*facepalm*

This, of course, is something. Capital ship crews aren't part of the GAR... quite possibly aren't Kaminoan, or even Jango... whistling

I like! grin

- The Imperial Ewok


They wear the clonetrooper armor, though, something I wouldn't expect Navy officers to wear. I mean, the stormies in the OT aren't part of the Navy, but they're on capital ships.

Obi-Wan wears clone armor from time to time. Considering how things on warships have the nasty habit of being shot at, armor is a good idea.

 

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Sinrebirth 
Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC
Registered: Nov '04
48116_Jacen Solo (41909)
Date Posted: 4/6/06 2:19pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Fist_of_Mandalore posted:
Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted:
Thrawn McEwok posted:
*facepalm*

This, of course, is something. Capital ship crews aren't part of the GAR... quite possibly aren't Kaminoan, or even Jango... whistling

I like! grin

- The Imperial Ewok


They wear the clonetrooper armor, though, something I wouldn't expect Navy officers to wear. I mean, the stormies in the OT aren't part of the Navy, but they're on capital ships.

Obi-Wan wears clone armor from time to time. Considering how things on warships have the nasty habit of being shot at, armor is a good idea.


Add to the fact we have the occasional inter-ship warefare going on. A la the Battle of Coruscant and Saesee Tiin's bunch.

 

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