Jedi Council Forums - ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)

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Author	Topic: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
Rogue_Follower Title: Manager: • Lit Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 4/6/06 2:23pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	I don't think that body armor will help much against a turbolaser...
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razzy1319 Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 4/6/06 2:47pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted: They wear the clonetrooper armor, though, something I wouldn't expect Navy officers to wear. I mean, the stormies in the OT aren't part of the Navy, but they're on capital ships. I thought stormies were part of the navy? McEwok: Werent the CEDF wearing armor during their battles? or were they simply space suits? -----signature----- In Space No One Can Hear Your Scream, Except For The BattleCry Of A Galactic Marine -Fictional BattleCry My Kind Weren't Made To Kneel -Fictional Clone Trooper Worst Admin Ever - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/User:WhiteBoy/Kuralyov
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MercenaryAce Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 4/6/06 3:05pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	Armor would help against sharpnel cause by turbolasers..... ANyway, I think the droids might be slightly underestamated here. B-1s may suck, the CIS also had legions of B2s, spiders, crabs, tris and vehicles. Heck, B-1s many have been goof most of ep.1, but they certainly were intimadating near the end. -----signature----- "I am no man...I am a space station!" Another star wars ships, droids and troops site: http://armiesofstarwars.com/ It does have info found nowhere Move all sig, for great justice
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LtNOWIS Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/6/06 3:16pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	Rogue_Follower posted: I don't think that body armor will help much against a turbolaser... Stormie armor protects against cold and vacuum. Kaminoan clones were explicitly mentioned as being in the Navy. However, it's inconcievable they were the crew for all of them, what with the Republic's vast number of Dreadnaughts and Acclamators. -----signature----- A little bit about me: http://tinyurl.com/bnmcck
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Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 4/6/06 5:07pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/6/06 5:31pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
	I'm not quite sure people get how big a number 300 billion is. That's 300,000,000,000, written out in full, and it's the number of battle droids for every one clone trooper. To put it in more recognizable terms, it's 50 Earths made up of all soldiers for every one clone. Or to scale it all up, that's 150 million times the population of Earth vs. about the population of Rome. For a bit more comparison, picture if every star within 1,000 light years of the Sun had an exact copy of Earth. Or if every star visible in the night sky under perfect conditions had 10,000 Earths, or using the EU's population, 60 Coruscants. Now take all those people and face them off against the inhabitants of Rome. Yeah, tactics are really going to help there. You'd think the armies of Earth might have realized that a while ago. The major armies of the World Wars each outnumbered the GAR on their own, but clearly they didn't need that many soldiers. If they had only known uber-tactics, they could have just sent out a few guys to do the job equally well. Ender_Sai posted: I feel it's worth noting that the most tactical able of the writers - Zahn, K-Mac and Traviss, for example - favour low-end numbers and tactics whilst the less tactically or strategically able authors prefer huge numbers... Or possibly that those authors who have studied primarily real-world battles don't understand the concept of galactic scale. Like I said, math is hard. It's much easier to throw out whatever crap comes off the the top of your head and hope people will take "a wizard did it" - sorry, I meant uber-sweet tactics - as an explanation. Thrawn McEwok posted: You have explicit statements of a GAR of 3 million Actually, you don't; all you have is a statement that there is a unit called a "Grand Army" that's 3 million strong. And here's the part that I don't get. You love reinterpreting canon statements to mean things slightly different from what they were intended. And I provided a whole list of retcons up there that can make the Grand Army referred to still be three million strong while making the whole clone army the larger size. Thrawn McEwok posted: Battledroids. Are. Crap. Why can't people wrap their heads round this? Why? Because that goes against canon too. These "crappy" droids have been shown to inflict massive casualties in many sources. And to suck that bad at 300 billion to one superiority, they'd have to basically be inactive. And that still didn't address the point I made in the quote. It is specifically stated that Republic forces outnumber the CIS forces deployed to the front in the first year of the war. That's a canon fact. Thrawn McEwok posted: Is this an infantry war? Not that I noticed. Ah, the space superiority argument. First, you generally (not always) need infantry to take a planet, and out of all the battles we see, most are ground battles. Second, manufacturing plants were churning out quintillions of droids, and somehow weren't able to have enough ships? And third, ROTS showed us that the CIS had enough forces in a relatively small strike force to hold their own against the home fleet of Coruscant when winning the space battle wasn't even really their goal. -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 4/6/06 5:50pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/6/06 5:51pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ender_Sai
	Lord_Hydronium posted: Ender_Sai posted: I feel it's worth noting that the most tactical able of the writers - Zahn, K-Mac and Traviss, for example - favour low-end numbers and tactics whilst the less tactically or strategically able authors prefer huge numbers... Or possibly that those authors who have studied primarily real-world battles don't understand the concept of galactic scale. Like I said, math is hard. It's much easier to throw out whatever crap comes off the the top of your head and hope people will take "a wizard did it" - sorry, I meant uber-sweet tactics - as an explanation. Yes, they've all shown in their works a lack of a grasp of scale. Those military sci-fi writers have been outsmarted by unqualified fandom. Teh winnar, thus, is you, hooray. As I said, it's not a problem of scale; they get that fine too. It's that they're able to understand the capabilties of one capital ship and well trained soldier and apply it with relevance; and don't think that adding zeroes to an arbitrary number of ships or troops makes for better storytelling. As I said, quality is better than quantity. It seriously smacks to me of someone who thinks themselves well qualified on battle matters from building 100 tanks in C&C and rushing an enemy base. If you think Zahn doesn't get the scale of space battles, then you very clearly and simply haven't read any of his books. If you had, and I dare say you haven't, you'd be recalling the Conquerer trilogy about now, somewhat glumly in fact as it pwned your statement. E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Master_of_Ossus Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 4/6/06 6:18pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	I think Karen's problem is that she simply does not want to admit that she was wrong. She's concocted all sorts of "fixes" that have been flimsy at best and downright insulting at worst, and even went through a "numbers don't matter!!!11!one!" phase a little while ago. Fundamentally, though, I think she still refuses to admit that her number makes no sense on the surface, and if it doesn't make sense to anyone but her, then for good storytelling purposes it is reasonable and preferable just to change it to something better. No storyteller should simply assume that the audience is going to buy into whatever they say just because they say it, and really good storytellers listen to feedback and make changes in an effort to improve their situations.
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Rogue_Follower Title: Manager: • Lit Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 4/6/06 6:24pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	i.e. Disbelief is not being suspended...
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Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 4/6/06 6:50pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	Ender_Sai posted: As I said, it's not a problem of scale; they get that fine too. It's that they're able to understand the capabilties of one capital ship and well trained soldier and apply it with relevance; and don't think that adding zeroes to an arbitrary number of ships or troops makes for better storytelling. As I said, quality is better than quantity. It seriously smacks to me of someone who thinks themselves well qualified on battle matters from building 100 tanks in C&C and rushing an enemy base. And here you're treating tactics as an unlimited equalizer, that nothing is impossible with sufficiently good tactics. Yes, tactics can overcome numerical advantage. But it's pure fanwankery to act like it's some sort of unlimited superpower that can neutralize any disadvantage. With these numbers the CIS doesn't even need good tactics. They can waste 99.9% of their forces by just throwing them up against clone emplacements and they'll still have 1 quadrillion droids left to do whatever they want, and they still outnumber the clone army by 300 million to one (and that's assuming that clones take no casualties against 999 quadrillion droids because of their SUPAH-AWESOME tactical ability). Thrawn, the mastermind tactician, didn't have nearly the numerical disadvantage that the GAR supposedly did, and even there it was a close race. Now imagine if Thrawn's opposition had gone up by a factor of a million (and like it or not, quintillions of droids is canon). Can Thrawn just think of better tactics and all will be well? I keep mentioning "a wizard did it" because that's exactly what this is. No explaining how it works, no considering any limitations, just a vague "oh they used some sort of tactics and that explains everything". You might as well say "because that's how the author wrote it". Or how about "it's MAGIC!". -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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razzy1319 Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 4/6/06 6:57pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	"One Jedi, One Battle" -----signature----- In Space No One Can Hear Your Scream, Except For The BattleCry Of A Galactic Marine -Fictional BattleCry My Kind Weren't Made To Kneel -Fictional Clone Trooper Worst Admin Ever - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/User:WhiteBoy/Kuralyov
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 4/6/06 7:17pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	Lord Hydronium, for the sake of arguement, I could give you several points in Star Wars alone, of said odds. Battle of Yavin. Battle of Feorest, Old Sith Wars. The Krath went from having a few ships to 300. And, taking Thrawn, he used one A-class freighter, a wing of fighters, and 50 mole miners against a heavily armed shipyard. In fact, throwing 7 Rendilli Dreadnaughts against an entire planet is pretty fair odds, says the Sronk Senator. I'm not saying you're wrong, but literature is sometimes about suspending belief and going with the flow. And yes, it is magic. Its called the Force, in SW shrugs I agree, quintillions of battle droids versus 3 million clones, alone, isn't gonna work. Then again, only a small part of the Empire and only a small part of the NR was fighting the Galactic Civil War at any one time. Excepting massive moments like Operation Shadow Hand, and the Battle of Anx Minor. -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Teaser of Chapter 9.5 is up! Wes vs Tarfang, Gavin and the Coup, Luke and Jacen, and much more! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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Lord_Hydronium Title: Literature Gardener Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 4/6/06 7:28pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound) - Date Edited: 4/6/06 7:29pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Hydronium
	Sinrebirth posted: Lord Hydronium, for the sake of arguement, I could give you several points in Star Wars alone, of said odds. Battle of Yavin. Battle of Feorest, Old Sith Wars. The Krath went from having a few ships to 300. And, taking Thrawn, he used one A-class freighter, a wing of fighters, and 50 mole miners against a heavily armed shipyard. In fact, throwing 7 Rendilli Dreadnaughts against an entire planet is pretty fair odds, says the Sronk Senator. Like I said, tactics can overcome numerical disadvantage. But here's what the argument is that's being used: tactics can overcome SOME numerical disadvantage (like your examples). Therefore, tactics can overcome ANY numerical disadvantage. None of those are even close to 300 billion to one. As such, those examples no more justify it than the fact that Obi-Wan can jump 50 feet in TPM means he could jump a mile. Sinrebirth posted: I'm not saying you're wrong, but literature is sometimes about suspending belief and going with the flow. And yes, it is magic. Its called the Force, in SW Suspension of disbelief can only take you so far. If Han were ejected into vacuum without an air supply and was perfectly fine, no one would say "Why don't you just suspend your disbelief?" It would go beyond the level that the universe has already established, and would be clearly illogical. We're not talking about Luke in one X-wing destroying the Death Star. We're talking about Luke in one X-wing holding off the entire Empire. -----signature----- Great midis have little midis Swimming round inside 'em And little midis have lesser midis And so ad infinitum.
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LtNOWIS Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/6/06 7:34pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	Lord_Hydronium posted: Ah, the space superiority argument. First, you generally (not always) need infantry to take a planet, and out of all the battles we see, most are ground battles. Terra Sool was liberated without any clone troopers, and it had a huge droid presence. According to the NEC, Ord Cestus was a typical operation. Thus, it was not terribly uncommon for 5 troopers to be able to liberate a planet. Furthermore, I think they had vastly more than 3 million clones, thanks to Spaarti cylinders. The GAR article only dealt with Kaminoan clones. -----signature----- A little bit about me: http://tinyurl.com/bnmcck
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Sinrebirth Title: Sith Emperor of the SWC Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 4/6/06 7:44pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	Logically, thats a perfectly fine arguement. Within the constructs of the established SW galaxy, I agree. I was just tempering your statement, thats all. Admittedly, I don't see what the ruckus is. We have non-clone soldiers mentioned in the NEC, as in conscripts and militia. And we know the Republic fleets and armies were vastly outnumbered, but not the Republic itself (See month six 1 CIS planet to every 10 Republic ones). Regardless, the CIS conquers most of the Republic by month 30 (The CIS had half the galaxy by month 36, and the CIS had lost the Core, all but the Colonies, and the Inner Rim, and maybe even the Mid Rim). Tactics or not, the CIS were winning the war until they lost it. shrugs -----signature----- Darth Insipid Proud Fan of the Tragedy of Jacen Solo Missing Chapters of Invincible; Teaser of Chapter 9.5 is up! Wes vs Tarfang, Gavin and the Coup, Luke and Jacen, and much more! http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28933751/p3/?70
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 4/6/06 7:48pm Subject: RE: ODDS in Insider 87 (Controversial Issues Abound)
	Lord Hydro; Consider the Battle of Trafalgar. A numerically superior French and Spanish force is completely defeated by the English, who lose no ships. Granted, Viscount Nelson was killed, but when you consider the number of French/Spanish ships destroyed or captured, and that the English lost none, that's clearly not numbers, it's tactical ability. Battle Droids are crap. In every incarnation; as a Minis gamer, I can tell you people only take battle droids to combine fire so other shooters are better. In the RPG, in films, books and games, they suck. Clones, on the other hand, are rigorously trained units, capable on independant thought. They carry more powerful weapons, and wear armour. They are supported by fighters, by artillery, and by gunships, and of course by Jedi. 3,000,000 grunts isn't improbable if you consider the additional support they have, and that their training and indepdent thinking give them an edge. The Confeds can have as many droids as they want, it's not even a 10:1 ratio. And yes, again, tactics does matter. It's how Thrawn took a planet with it's planetary shield intact. It's why in wargames the Australian army can often outscore the US army, which by your fairly singular logic should win because it's bigger. If you want to see a situation where numbers matter in a way contrary to your point, the 300 Spartans might be a good start. E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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