Author Topic: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
QuentinGeorge  4759 posts
Registered: Dec '03
48582_Kaan (60609)
Date Posted: 6/24/06 4:24am Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
Actually, the Sith culture (of the original species) seems to be more the right hand path. (ie, multiple deities, blood sacrifice, caste system).

The later Sith Order (exalting the self) is much more influenced by the ideas of the Dark Jedi who conquered it.

 

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Thrawn McEwok  13599 posts
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered: May '00
43231_Chiss Ewok
Date Posted: 6/24/06 6:10am Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties - Date Edited: 6/24/06 6:18am (1 edits total) Edited By: Thrawn McEwok
QuentinGeorge posted:
No, not really. It is the formal name for the second-in-command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. There's a difference.

Vader is a Sith apprentice, and Dark Lord of the Sith. While Vader and Sidious lived, Lumiya was intended to be Vader's second-in-command, and hence Shadow Hand.

"Sith apprentices" would only be Shadow Hands while there is a sole Dark Lord - as in, Revan's time. In Bane's order, both Sith were Dark Lords, so there was no Shadow Hand.

So, in Bane's order, a Shadow Hand can technically be the second-in-command of a second-in-command.


Umm... so how do you explain Darth Millennial, who's a Darth after Ruusan, and described as "Shadow Hand" under a Sith Master called Darth Cognus? wink

Also, some interesting wordplay here:

Sith'ari - Overlord of the Sith.
Jen'jidai - the name given to the Jedi who discovered the Sith Empire.
Jen'ari - Dark Lord
Jiaasjen - "integrating the shadow"
Saarai - "True Way"
Jensaarai - "followers of the True Way"

Now it looks as though -'ari means "lord" in the Sith language, and Jen- we would expect to mean "dark", inasmuch as it's used in Jen'ari, and also in Jen'jidai, which presumably means "Dark Jedi".

However, Jen- also seems to occur in Jiaasjen, "integrating the shadow", and in Jensaarai, "followers of the Saarai". In Jiaasjen, I'd suggest that Jen means "shadow", while in Jensaarai, it's perhaps idiomatic, implying "followers" in the sense that the Jensaari "stand in the shadow" of the Saarai.

Thus, it seems that "dark" and "shadow" can both represent the same Sith word Jen, and the same word is probably used in the Sith terms translated as both "Dark Lord" and "Shadow Hand"; but the differing translation may reflect a difference in idiom: the Shadow Hand (which is actually the older of the two titles) stands in the shadow of his master, as it were...

But do I remember a reference somewhere in canon to Vader as Palpatine's "dark hand"? raised_brow

I'm also seeing connections here to the imagery of the Mandalorian battle-songs, which I doubt is entirely deliberate, but which nevertheless seems really cool. cool

On an aside, I suspect that Sith'ari may be the Sith term behind of both "Lord of the Sith" (as opposed to the more generic "Dark Lord of the Sith") and "Sith Master". As a title, it clearly survives at least until the Jedi Exiles show up...

So what we seem to have is:

Sith'ari: "Lord of the Sith"/"Sith Master" - title borne by earliest Sith leaders, perhaps revived in New Sith Wars?
"Shadow Hand" (original unknown) - Sith title for the lieutenant/heir/apprentice of a Sith Master.
Jen'ari: "Dark Lord" - generic title for leading Sith, originating with the arrival of the Dark Jedi. Can be borne by both Master and Apprentice.

We also have "Dark Lord of the Sith" and "Sith Lord", which I suspect are variations on "Dark Lord". Both are applied to Vader, but I suppose he coudl be considered a Sith'ari... thinking

Abel, any chance of a clarification here, or are you just enjoying watching the confusion? grin

And something else that I've not seen mentioned yet: "Empress Ysanne Isard"? raised_brow grin

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CeiranHarmony  4474 posts
Registered: May '04
17274_Dark Apprentice
Date Posted: 6/24/06 6:48am Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
Thrawn McEwok posted:
QuentinGeorge posted:
No, not really. It is the formal name for the second-in-command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. There's a difference.

Vader is a Sith apprentice, and Dark Lord of the Sith. While Vader and Sidious lived, Lumiya was intended to be Vader's second-in-command, and hence Shadow Hand.

"Sith apprentices" would only be Shadow Hands while there is a sole Dark Lord - as in, Revan's time. In Bane's order, both Sith were Dark Lords, so there was no Shadow Hand.

So, in Bane's order, a Shadow Hand can technically be the second-in-command of a second-in-command.


Umm... so how do you explain Darth Millennial, who's a Darth after Ruusan, and described as "Shadow Hand" under a Sith Master called Darth Cognus? wink

Also, some interesting wordplay here:

Sith'ari - Overlord of the Sith.
Jen'jidai - the name given to the Jedi who discovered the Sith Empire.
Jen'ari - Dark Lord
Jiaasjen - "integrating the shadow"
Saarai - "True Way"
Jensaarai - "followers of the True Way"

Now it looks as though -'ari means "lord" in the Sith language, and Jen- we would expect to mean "dark", inasmuch as it's used in Jen'ari, and also in Jen'jidai, which presumably means "Dark Jedi".

However, Jen- also seems to occur in Jiaasjen, "integrating the shadow", and in Jensaarai, "followers of the Saarai". In Jiaasjen, I'd suggest that Jen means "shadow", while in Jensaarai, it's perhaps idiomatic, implying "followers" in the sense that the Jensaari "stand in the shadow" of the Saarai.

Thus, it seems that "dark" and "shadow" can both represent the same Sith word Jen, and the same word is probably used in the Sith terms translated as both "Dark Lord" and "Shadow Hand"; but the differing translation may reflect a difference in idiom: the Shadow Hand (which is actually the older of the two titles) stands in the shadow of his master, as it were...

But do I remember a reference somewhere in canon to Vader as Palpatine's "dark hand"? raised_brow

I'm also seeing connections here to the imagery of the Mandalorian battle-songs, which I doubt is entirely deliberate, but which nevertheless seems really cool. cool

On an aside, I suspect that Sith'ari may be the Sith term behind of both "Lord of the Sith" (as opposed to the more generic "Dark Lord of the Sith") and "Sith Master". As a title, it clearly survives at least until the Jedi Exiles show up...

So what we seem to have is:

Sith'ari: "Lord of the Sith"/"Sith Master" - title borne by earliest Sith leaders, perhaps revived in New Sith Wars?
"Shadow Hand" (original unknown) - Sith title for the lieutenant/heir/apprentice of a Sith Master.
Jen'ari: "Dark Lord" - generic title for leading Sith, originating with the arrival of the Dark Jedi. Can be borne by both Master and Apprentice.

We also have "Dark Lord of the Sith" and "Sith Lord", which I suspect are variations on "Dark Lord". Both are applied to Vader, but I suppose he coudl be considered a Sith'ari... thinking

Abel, any chance of a clarification here, or are you just enjoying watching the confusion? grin

And something else that I've not seen mentioned yet: "Empress Ysanne Isard"? raised_brow grin

- The Imperial Ewok


Empress rocks ^^

and the language analysis, I love it..

but, is it only me or: when the rakatans discovered the sith and educated them with some tech... this was no slavery, this was an alliance. that broke when they found out the true motives of the rakatans. were the sith the start of the slave revolutions? the.. beginning of the "save the galaxy" movements? cough.. sith helped founding the Old Republic by getting rid of the rakatans.. uhoh.. sith are the good guys :-P

and the Sith-Anzati connection that I love so much.. I want more details on it!!!!!

Anzati as godlike beings, or as teachers? oppressors or just visitors? did they start the rise of the sith culture to a higher state, giving them space travel etc.?

 

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Oro_Orbis  158 posts
Registered: May '06
40014_Darth Malak
Date Posted: 6/24/06 7:42am Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
Kol_Skywalker posted:
I found it very interesting in the article where it mentions the ancient Sith race were predominantly left-handed.

I wonder if this is a subtle reference to:

The Left Hand Path

If it is not the intention of the author, it is an amazing cooincidence nontheless, as this real-world philosophy certainly does mesh with the philosophies of the Sith.

I suggest everyone check it out, as I would love to have some discussion on this point.


The Jedi are left-hand path too, as they focus on self-enlightenment - so if intentional, its probably just a misconception that the author had, when reading up on left-hand LeVayan Satanism or something.

 

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Halagad_Ventor  1278 posts
Title:
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Registered: Jul '01
41556_Halagad Ventor
Date Posted: 6/24/06 11:16am Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
While the left-handedness of the Sith was a deliberate invokation to all things "not right" associated with it, it wasn't a ref to the Left Hand Path per se. The original Sith species was very specifically set up as anti- or (better yet) pre-dichotomatic.

More later.

Abel

 

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Sauron_18  3594 posts
Registered: Apr '05
23547_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/24/06 12:56pm Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
Halagad_Ventor posted:

Can this guy be Adas? Maybe. I personally wouldn't link the two since the guy in Tales of the Jedi illo has a lightsaber and I believe the text suggests he's a fallen Jedi, which Adas clearly never was. But then, there's always leeway with illustrations.


Thank You! grin

 

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Havac  14250 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 6/24/06 4:51pm Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
Damn. I want Hyperspace so bad.

 

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DarthMane2  2176 posts
Registered: Sep '03
42111_Colonel Vogel
Date Posted: 6/24/06 5:56pm Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
Well I think Abel again deserves his props for another great article. I believe it's time for Abel to take his seat on the throne of continuity.

 

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Master_Uxi  580 posts
Registered: Jun '05
14783_Jedi Council
Date Posted: 6/24/06 10:40pm Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties - Date Edited: 6/24/06 10:49pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Master_Uxi
Definitely sounds like a great article. Really sounds like many of the tidbits from the TOTJ Companion are referenced there.

Hmm, I was hoping for some revision to the NEC so there would be a direct link between the dark Jedi of the first schism (c25,000BBY) with the "jen'jidai." 7,000BBY seems way too late given the depiction in TotJ...

A link to Revan/Malak would have been nice, too.

Is there anymore on Exar Kun/ Ulic Qel-Droma and the Great Sith War?
Any elucidation on the extinction of the Sith following the Great Hyperspace War?
What about Kaan and the Brotherhood?

 

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Oro_Orbis  158 posts
Registered: May '06
40014_Darth Malak
Date Posted: 6/24/06 10:57pm Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
DarthMane2 posted:
Well I think Abel again deserves his props for another great article. I believe it's time for Abel to take his seat on the throne of continuity.




Seriously, this is nice and everything, but most of the lore-lovers in the community have a grasp of continuity as good.

 

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Master_Uxi  580 posts
Registered: Jun '05
14783_Jedi Council
Date Posted: 6/24/06 11:18pm Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
Most of the lore-lovers are restricted to commentary or fanon and aren't published on Hyperspace or the Insider...

 

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Havac  14250 posts
Title: Lit Mod of War
Registered: Sep '05
23735_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 6/24/06 11:38pm Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
Oro_Orbis posted:
DarthMane2 posted:
Well I think Abel again deserves his props for another great article. I believe it's time for Abel to take his seat on the throne of continuity.




Seriously, this is nice and everything, but most of the lore-lovers in the community have a grasp of continuity as good.

Most of the actual contributors to continuity don't.

 

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Oro_Orbis  158 posts
Registered: May '06
40014_Darth Malak
Date Posted: 6/25/06 1:18am Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties - Date Edited: 6/25/06 2:28am (9 edits total) Edited By: Oro_Orbis
Ive always wondered - look at Star Trek, and how in 'Enterprise', a bunch of idiots managed to screw up one of the greatest fictional franchises of all time - how hard would it have been for them to just hire a damn fan for continuity advice? If they couldnt be bothered themselves, thats all they had to do (not that it would have saved the pre-school level of writing). Its not like it takes a lot of research anyway, especially with encyclopedic books and websites around.

Star Wars is at least handled better than that (so far) - but this whole Sith thing is known by most active EU fans. Thats what im saying. People are bursting out with 'lets crown him sovreign king god-messiah of the entire EU!' over stuff which wookiepedia contributors, amongst others, have detailed anyway. Sitll a great article by Abel - but its funny seeing overnight-idolisation going on here rolling_eyes

Halagad_Ventor posted:
While the left-handedness of the Sith was a deliberate invokation to all things "not right" associated with it, it wasn't a ref to the Left Hand Path per se. The original Sith species was very specifically set up as anti- or (better yet) pre-dichotomatic.

More later.

Abel


They do not believe in the body and soul as two components of a being? Does that mean the Jedi do? From what I have seen their respective orders seems to be rooted in fairly secular philosophy, despite how their relationship to the force is kinda like the relationship of the universal soul (Atman) in Hinduism/Buddhism, etc.

Or are you saying that they believe in non-dualistic morality? Because frankly, so do I happy It is a tenet of the other major family of world religion, Dharma, that morality is not as simple as polar opposites - whereas dualism is mainly an Abrahamic family interpretation of the world - if this is what you mean, does this mean the Jedi believe in good vs evil, as opposed to 'ignorance' vs 'contemplation', 'passion' vs 'restraint' etc?

If the Sith were 'pre-dualistic' (im not sure how that would work, as they seem to be equally as philosophically mature as the Jedi order), what does this mean? Or is this perhaps a case of the opposites being more along the lines of Buddhism/Hinduism/Taoism - i.e. yin/yang middle-path, etc? Did the Jedi order perhaps fall because they strayed from the middle path, while the Sith have only ever embraced 'passion' anyway?

How did the Anzati figure in the Sith attitude - their original force magics evolved into an embrace of the dark side as a philosophical system as a result of experience with the violence of the universe? Was the embrace of the dark side then originally a survival tactic of the Sith in a cold universe, until it was explored, presumably by the meditations of ancient Sith scholars?

And Sith society itself - as it seems to be based on various human cultures, as many societies in Star Wars are, was the inspiration of the Sith Egyptian/Aztec? Were there other inspirations? I guess the reason im assuming the pre-Dark-Jedi Sith were already deeply familiar with the dark side is the way the holocron of Adas is still so potent.

In this case, what exacty was the effect of the Dark Jedi arrival - the Sith order as we know it seems to have begun here - I assume they offered almost as much to the dark side philosophy of the Sith species as was already present? Perhaps transforming it from the first time from a 'magic' wielded by rulers into a philosophical order not unlike the Jedi themselves?

 

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Sauron_18  3594 posts
Registered: Apr '05
23547_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/25/06 1:26am Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
It's finally an official history of the Sith binding everything. The key word is official.

 

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QuentinGeorge  4759 posts
Registered: Dec '03
48582_Kaan (60609)
Date Posted: 6/25/06 3:15am Subject: RE: Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties
I'm not sure if Abel intended this, but Sith history does actually echo English history, to some extent.

When the Normans conquered the Saxons of England, at first they ruled with quite a different culture, but eventually the Normans were the ones assimilated - a fair portion of what we consider "English" owes itself to Saxon, rather than Norman.

We see a similar thing with the Sith - despite the fact the Dark Jedi conquer the race, and rule them as god-kings, thousands of years down the line, native Sith culture is so entrenched that we see the Sith of the New Sith Wars (1,000 BBY), eating bloodsoup - which is described as a traditional dish of the Sith species.

Very interesting, the species may not have survived, but cultural elements of that have survived at least six thousand years of foreign rulership.

 

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