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Author	Topic: EU dissing EU
SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 8/29/06 5:14am Subject: EU dissing EU - Date Edited: 8/29/06 5:17am (1 edits total) Edited By: SuperWatto
	70s - 80s First, there were the Marvel comics. They were nice, sometimes silly, but turned outright ridiculous when the Tofs were introduced. 90s Then came Zahn and Dark Empire. Not a word on the Tofs. Or on anything from Marvel, let alone from the Droids or Ewoks cartoons. Then came the big Bantam wave. They really did their best to minimize any references to the cloned Emperor from Dark Empire. Then came the Del Rey books. And of course, very little on the developments of the past twenty years. Some authors had written SW books before so they'd just write on, but the majority started anew. 00s Then came the prequels, which shed a new light on everything published before. And EU licensees were quick to diss anything of old. In a way, the EU was restarted. Now There's massive retconning going on but my guess is that any future licensee will think nothing of what's been published before. The adagio seems to be that what's old, is bad. Someday, might be soon, your entire jedi academy trilogy is going to go out the window... A favorable exception to this rule is Dark Horse. But with the novels, I just don't trust it anymore. -----signature----- Christmas destroyer
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Rogue_Follower Title: Manager: • Lit Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 8/29/06 5:24am Subject: RE: EU dissing EU - Date Edited: 8/29/06 5:25am (1 edits total) Edited By: Rogue_Follower
	Stuff has never been completely ignored---even Marvel content can be found in the original Essential Guide to Characters and a number of RPG sourcebooks. And that was way back in the early 90s. Also, the "retconning trend" started (or at least exploded) in the early 00s, right after Wizards of the Coast got the RPG license. You're right about Bantam, though. They really didn't do much work to establish a chronology with their novels. Or at least it wasn't always immediately apparent. But IMHO you're dead wrong if you think that new stories will ignore the past EU. Heck, the villian from the Legacy of the Force series is Lumiya, way back from Marvel. The current crop of writers seems to enjoy referencing past stories and history.
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 8/29/06 6:36am Subject: RE: EU dissing EU - Date Edited: 8/29/06 6:40am (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedimarine
	The retcon phenomenon is a direct result of a stricter, smaller galaxy that has bloomed up since the prequels and NJO began. It is the result of authors, either incapable of making or ordered to avoid making new characters and focus on old ones, that we get a series of crossed ideas that must be reconciled. It is the result of George, knowing full well when he gave licensing rights away for novelizations that he would be surrendering his characters to other imaginations...yet turning around and arrogantly prancing over established EU (don't get me wrong, I like the prequels, but I don't like what George did.) The Marvel and Bantam eras could play to each other as much or little as the reader wanted BECAUSE there was little mentions between. Even once the videogames came in like "Jedi Knight" there was enough space and authors kept "distant" from other material, only perhaps mentioning characters or villains. The galaxy was big, the timeline less restrictive. Today, we have authors climbing over themselves to play "fill-in" for stories. (Case in point, the R2D2 subplot in Dark Nest about Padme and Anakin). It is a deliberate attempt to shrink the galaxy and make both the prequel and post-rotj EU a single cohesive...eventually wrapping in KOTOR, BANE, and on to Legacy...and is this for the benefit of the reader? They claim it is...so you can get a "whole" view of Star Wars...reality? They want you to NEED to buy EVERYTHING (Prequel, Republic, Empire, LOTF, Legacy) cause you'll miss some detail if you don't. It is a marketing scheme to bring all readers of Star Wars from all areas of interest into the fold, and since this is not how the marvel or Bantam people did it, that is where we are forced to apologize material. So far, Dark Horse has managed to maintain somewhat an original premise, and I'm thankful for Legacy...let's just hope they don't start having tie-ins to republic era stuff, and rebel stuff and NR stuff...already has a skywalker, what more do we need? demand your limitless universe back people...I beg you! Edit: Final Comment...A Big Thanks to the Online Community...without it, I would've been lost MANY times in the last 6-7 years. -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 8/29/06 9:03am Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	Rogue, if you start with referencing essential guides and RPG sourcebooks, you have to be aware of the fact that your case is weak. The only purpose of these guides is completism, and to me they're very, very irrelevant. Now, I can't say anything about the Legacy novels because I haven't read them yet. However, I'm not here to moan about particular publishers or authors; I'm only anthropomorphizing. I think that it's part and parcel of contributing to the SW universe that one thinks his work surpasses the work done before. I bet someone who grew up with the Marvels threw Lumiya in, but they sure won't mention no cloned Emperor! See what I mean? And I decidedly disagree with Jedimarine. The stuff can't all coexist. It makes no sense that galaxy-shattering events such as in Dark Empire and Thrawn have no consequences in following stories. -----signature----- Christmas destroyer
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Jango_Fettish Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 8/29/06 9:14am Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	SuperWatto posted: I bet someone who grew up with the Marvels threw Lumiya in, but they sure won't mention no cloned Emperor! See what I mean? Actually, Lumiya herself talks about the cloned Emperor is Betrayl. Not to burst your bubble
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 8/29/06 9:34am Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	Nice to be proven wrong! I gotta get that book. -----signature----- Christmas destroyer
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HedecGa Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 8/29/06 11:23am Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	I think Jedimarine made some good points. One being that, "back in the day" the galaxy was so big, nothing really HAD to interconnect. To some extent, that holds true today. As was just discussed, Lumiya is in LOTF and, yes, they do make a great reference to the cloned Emperor but, what if they hadn't? That wouldn't have meant that it didn't happen. They don't go walking around and talking about Jaxxon, but he's still there somewhere. In fact, the presence of Lumiya only makes Jaxxon MORE relevant, since they both are Marvel alum. Well, that, and not to mention the fact that Abel and Ryan gave him some good spotlight time in their Underworld Appendix. What I'm saying is that, just because every single story ever written isn't mentioned in each and every story ever written, it doesn't mean it didn't happen. For thirty years, or whatever, writers have been able to work within the EU without restarting it to satisfy their egomaniacal (or lazy) tendencies. I don't see why that has to change. -----signature----- "The Coming Evil, Book One: The Strange Man" available NOW at http://www.thecomingevil.blogspot.com Author of the Dusty Duck databank entry - The 71st "Greatest Thing About Star Wars...Ever!" - SW Insider 100 Co-author of the Silya Shessaun databank
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darth-sinister Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 8/29/06 12:37pm Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	In the Bantam era, Kevin J. Anderson made many references to Archie Goodwin and Al Williamson's newspaper strips of the early 80's. Much of Yavin 4's back history comes from them. Anderson also mentioned the clone Emperor story in his stories. Though he was a bit of a completist. From "Agents Of Chaos" on, more references were made not just from the early Del Rey years and Bantam, but also from other Star Wars books and comics. Not just the Marvel series, but also from guide books and even the "Jedi Prince" book series. Maybe not the stories, but many alien species and locales. SuperWatto posted: It makes no sense that galaxy-shattering events such as in Dark Empire and Thrawn have no consequences in following stories. Thrawn was mentioned briefly in the first Dark Empire arc and a bit more in the two sequels. Anderson had to alter his version of Coruscant in the Jedi Academy Trilogy, to match the destruction found in Dark Empire. In fact, when Anderson first heard of Dark Empire, he called up Tom Vietch to discuss the story. From there they both made adjustments to their stories. Vietch made references to Leia being pregnant with Anakin and Anderson made references to Ulic Qel-Droma. Going so far as to tie Ulic and Exar Kun together as Jedi turned Sith. And there were consequences from Dark Empire which showed up in the Black Fleet trilogy and the Hand Of Thrawn duology. The former introduced the idea of the Fallansai not trusting Luke, which became a big topic when HOT was written. And Thrawn was well documented in all of Zahn's subsequent novels and novellas, as well as what Michael A. Stackpole contributed with his work. -----signature----- Stewie: "Oh, this is an even bigger jackpot than when the Emperor came up with the formula for great Star Wars dialouge." Palpatine: "Something, something, something. Dark side. Something, something, something complete."
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HedecGa Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 8/29/06 12:45pm Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	Very nice, Darth Sinister...very nice -----signature----- "The Coming Evil, Book One: The Strange Man" available NOW at http://www.thecomingevil.blogspot.com Author of the Dusty Duck databank entry - The 71st "Greatest Thing About Star Wars...Ever!" - SW Insider 100 Co-author of the Silya Shessaun databank
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 8/29/06 2:01pm Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	Not so nice, since nobody seemed to grasp what I'm trying to say. KJA is a good example. Coupla phone calls with Veitch and he thinks he's done. Beaming Coruscant becomes war-torn Coruscant and that's that. ONE line about the reborn Emperor. What I'm saying is: he should have taken the trouble to rewrite the whole bugger. And everyone writing about Luke Skywalker should read everything that's happened to Luke Skywalker. Not copy some stuff from an LFL synopsis. Make us feel it's the same people, the same history. -----signature----- Christmas destroyer
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Ris_jSarek Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 8/29/06 3:48pm Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	[quote]And everyone writing about Luke Skywalker should read everything that's happened to Luke Skywalker.[/quote] If they did that, they'd never have time to write. -----signature----- http://churchofbrad.com/jsarek/ Proud recipient of Halagad_Ventor's MOO (Master of Obscurity) Award, Brett_Bass's Spiffy Crown™, and Thrawn McEwok's "Ohh...? Interesting..." Award™
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-RebelScum- Registered: Feb '04	Date Posted: 8/29/06 3:52pm Subject: RE: EU dissing EU - Date Edited: 8/29/06 3:53pm (2 edits total) Edited By: -RebelScum-
	Rogue_Follower posted: But IMHO you're dead wrong if you think that new stories will ignore the past EU. Heck, the villian from the Legacy of the Force series is Lumiya, way back from Marvel. Well that ruined the surprise. -The Scummy- -----signature----- Fantasy Keeps Me Sane.
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Rogue_Follower Title: Manager: • Lit Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 8/29/06 3:58pm Subject: RE: EU dissing EU - Date Edited: 8/29/06 4:00pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rogue_Follower
	Sorry. Her presence in the LotF arc has been common knowledge for a while now. SuperWatto posted: Rogue, if you start with referencing essential guides and RPG sourcebooks, you have to be aware of the fact that your case is weak. The only purpose of these guides is completism, and to me they're very, very irrelevant. I beg to differ on the Essential Guides, but I concede on the RPG stuff---not everybody cares about all the information they contain. The EGs, however, are reference material, akin to light text-books, and are commonly used by authors for reference.
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 8/29/06 4:06pm Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	No man, those Essential Guides are one big retcon, you don't buy them for fun do you? I meant fiction. Novels. Stuff you can actually read. Oh and Ris: perhaps that's a good thing. Perhaps less people should be writing it. And Scum: hey, you didn't care for comics anyway, right? -----signature----- Christmas destroyer
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Ris_jSarek Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 8/29/06 4:42pm Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	SuperWatto posted: No man, those Essential Guides are one big retcon, you don't buy them for fun do you? I meant fiction. Novels. Stuff you can actually read. Am I weird for enjoying reading RPG guides and Essential Guides more than reading novels? -----signature----- http://churchofbrad.com/jsarek/ Proud recipient of Halagad_Ventor's MOO (Master of Obscurity) Award, Brett_Bass's Spiffy Crown™, and Thrawn McEwok's "Ohh...? Interesting..." Award™
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Katana_Geldar Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU' Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 8/29/06 5:34pm Subject: RE: EU dissing EU
	Well, depending on the author, it's not THAT weird. -----signature----- Jacen and the two Vergeres http://gmgeldar.wordpress.com/vergere-essay/ Now, if you don't mind, I am somewhat preoccoupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down.
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