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Topic:
Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
11/20/06 1:11pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Alpha-02 posted:
Exactly, which kinda undermines what Qui-Gon said, although the RotS novel is G-Canon, well the ideas that originated with GL anyway. Also maybe it's arguing semantics, but maybe there's a difference between transferring your spirit and retaining your consciousness, though maybe that's stretching it.
There's a difference between a Force Ghost and a Sith Spirit.
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BigDamnHero
Registered:
Oct '06
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Date Posted:
11/20/06 2:13pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Good essay, I respect the amount of time you must of spent with it. You argue your points very well, but your entire argument is really based on one thing, the interpetation of the Vergere saying "Choose and act." You interpret that to mean that what you do it's not what you intend that matters but you what you do, and I'd tend to agree with that interpretation. But what does that really mean? An action by itself is not good or bad, its just an action. There are good and bad intetnions, and there are good and bad results, but the action itself means nothing. You said that posted:
Here Vergere seems to be saying that it is not motive that is important, but the actions behind it. The means rather than the ends...
So are you saying that there are actions that are good/bad regardless of the results? Was Vergere sabatoging Alpha Red a good action regardless of the results of it? If Alpha Red would only kill some Vong and not all would the same action still have been good? Those questions are similar to the ones that Vergere posed when she asked is evil a matter of degree. That train of thought leads me to a different interpretation of "Choose and act" that is related to "But everything you tell yourself should be the truth—or as close to it as you can come. You did what you did because of who you are." I take it to mean be honest with yourself and decide what you want, act upon it, and accept the results of those actions. This is another way of saying completely surrender yourself, something that Vergere supports and Jacen later does. This principle of "choose and act" can explain pretty much all of decisions Jacen makes in the later books, he may have deluded himself to the point where he's no longer being honest with himself, and thats where I'd argue is the flaw in Vergere's teaching, that it lends it self towards that type of delusion.
This is just my interpretations of Vergere, if you think there is anything obviously wrong with it, or wrong with the comments I made on your essay please point them out.
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Alpha-02
Registered:
Nov '06
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Date Posted:
11/20/06 2:30pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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dp4m posted:
Alpha-02 posted:
Exactly, which kinda undermines what Qui-Gon said, although the RotS novel is G-Canon, well the ideas that originated with GL anyway. Also maybe it's arguing semantics, but maybe there's a difference between transferring your spirit and retaining your consciousness, though maybe that's stretching it.
There's a difference between a Force Ghost and a Sith Spirit.
Of course, but are they not both forms of retaining your consciousness after death.
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
11/21/06 9:53am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Alpha-02 posted:
dp4m posted:
Alpha-02 posted:
Exactly, which kinda undermines what Qui-Gon said, although the RotS novel is G-Canon, well the ideas that originated with GL anyway. Also maybe it's arguing semantics, but maybe there's a difference between transferring your spirit and retaining your consciousness, though maybe that's stretching it.
There's a difference between a Force Ghost and a Sith Spirit.
Of course, but are they not both forms of retaining your consciousness after death.
Veeeerrrrrrrry different ones.
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"Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman
"Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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Alpha-02
Registered:
Nov '06
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Date Posted:
11/21/06 1:50pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
- Date Edited:
11/21/06 1:53pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Alpha-02
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dp4m posted:
Veeeerrrrrrrry different ones.
Of course, but Qui-Gon specifically says that Sith cannot retain their consciousness after a physical death. However they do it, it still essentially contradicts what Qui-Gon said. However, seeing as he is a character and not infallable (don't know of an out-of-universe source on this), this could simply be taken to mean that the Sith cannot retain their consciousness in the same way that Qui-Gon did.
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"As always, fat one, you have miscalculated. And while I find this small droid annoying to the extreme, I find my urge to shoot you takes a higher priority." The Eyes Of The Storm http://boards.theforce.net/before_the_saga/b10475/26974904
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Kidan
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
11/21/06 2:21pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Alpha-02 posted:
Of course, but Qui-Gon specifically says that Sith cannot retain their consciousness after a physical death. However they do it, it still essentially contradicts what Qui-Gon said. However, seeing as he is a character and not infallable (don't know of an out-of-universe source on this), this could simply be taken to mean that the Sith cannot retain their consciousness in the same way that Qui-Gon did.
This theory is **** talks to a couple folks[/color][/hl]....
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
11/21/06 2:22pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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So are you saying that there are actions that are good/bad regardless of the results?
Results of course ae part of the action as what you do has an intended outcome regardless of the reasons for it. Remember what Vergere says about 'Why?', saying to instead ask 'What?'. A 'What are you doing?' rather than a 'Why are you doing it?'
As for Qui-Gon I'd say he's pretty reliable as he's 'one with the Force' and Sith ghosts are different to Jedi ghosts and he knew this.
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
11/21/06 5:02pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Katana_Geldar posted:
So are you saying that there are actions that are good/bad regardless of the results?
Results of course ae part of the action as what you do has an intended outcome regardless of the reasons for it. Remember what Vergere says about 'Why?', saying to instead ask 'What?'. A 'What are you doing?' rather than a 'Why are you doing it?'
As for Qui-Gon I'd say he's pretty reliable as he's 'one with the Force' and Sith ghosts are different to Jedi ghosts and he knew this.
So to you the ends always justify the means if the ends are "good?"
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"Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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BigDamnHero
Registered:
Oct '06
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Date Posted:
11/21/06 7:16pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Results of course ae part of the action as what you do has an intended outcome regardless of the reasons for it. Remember what Vergere says about 'Why?', saying to instead ask 'What?'. A 'What are you doing?' rather than a 'Why are you doing it?'
What philosophy does 'What are you doing?' imply? What someone is doing seems to depend on your point of view. What was Vergere doing when she put Jacen in the Embrace of Pain? From one point of view she was torturing him, from another she was teaching him to. What was Vergere doing when she destroyed Alpha Red, saving millions of lives? Or prolonging a destructive war? What is Jacen doing now? Arresting innocent citizens? Or bringing order to the galaxy?
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Alpha-02
Registered:
Nov '06
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Date Posted:
11/22/06 3:05am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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You're going to find many of the truths you cling to depend greatly on your own point of view 
Besides whether you agree with Vergere's teachings (torturing if you want to think that way) the point is that they have been changed/mis-interpreted since Traitor.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
11/23/06 3:29pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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dp4m posted:
Katana_Geldar posted:
So are you saying that there are actions that are good/bad regardless of the results?
Results of course ae part of the action as what you do has an intended outcome regardless of the reasons for it. Remember what Vergere says about 'Why?', saying to instead ask 'What?'. A 'What are you doing?' rather than a 'Why are you doing it?'
As for Qui-Gon I'd say he's pretty reliable as he's 'one with the Force' and Sith ghosts are different to Jedi ghosts and he knew this.
So to you the ends always justify the means if the ends are "good?"
Of course not! That's the philosophy Jacen had in DN and Betrayal that made me want to smack his head in! It's rather the other way around, the means are a lot more important than the ends ever will be.
Point of view is also another thing to consider as well, yet I seem to find agreeing with Vergere's teachings depends on whether you like Traitor or not. It's not a run-of-the-mill EU novel like Destiny's Way which is maybe why it hasn't got a broad reception.
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Alpha-02
Registered:
Nov '06
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Date Posted:
11/23/06 3:31pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Katana_Geldar posted:
dp4m posted:
Katana_Geldar posted:
So are you saying that there are actions that are good/bad regardless of the results?
Results of course ae part of the action as what you do has an intended outcome regardless of the reasons for it. Remember what Vergere says about 'Why?', saying to instead ask 'What?'. A 'What are you doing?' rather than a 'Why are you doing it?'
As for Qui-Gon I'd say he's pretty reliable as he's 'one with the Force' and Sith ghosts are different to Jedi ghosts and he knew this.
So to you the ends always justify the means if the ends are "good?"
Of course not! That's the philosophy Jacen had in DN and Betrayal that made me want to smack his head in! It's rather the other way around, the means are a lot more important than the ends ever will be.
Exactly, as Luke says...
"There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you’ve constructed an entire philosophy of evil."
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"As always, fat one, you have miscalculated. And while I find this small droid annoying to the extreme, I find my urge to shoot you takes a higher priority." The Eyes Of The Storm http://boards.theforce.net/before_the_saga/b10475/26974904
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
11/23/06 3:49pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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*nods*
Remind me where that's quoted from, I think it's in DN but I'm not too sure.
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
11/23/06 7:39pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Katana_Geldar posted:
dp4m posted:
Katana_Geldar posted:
So are you saying that there are actions that are good/bad regardless of the results?
Results of course ae part of the action as what you do has an intended outcome regardless of the reasons for it. Remember what Vergere says about 'Why?', saying to instead ask 'What?'. A 'What are you doing?' rather than a 'Why are you doing it?'
As for Qui-Gon I'd say he's pretty reliable as he's 'one with the Force' and Sith ghosts are different to Jedi ghosts and he knew this.
So to you the ends always justify the means if the ends are "good?"
Of course not! That's the philosophy Jacen had in DN and Betrayal that made me want to smack his head in! It's rather the other way around, the means are a lot more important than the ends ever will be.
Point of view is also another thing to consider as well, yet I seem to find agreeing with Vergere's teachings depends on whether you like Traitor or not. It's not a run-of-the-mill EU novel like Destiny's Way which is maybe why it hasn't got a broad reception.
A "why" question implies curiosity only about the ends, not the means used to accomplish it however.
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"Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman
"Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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Alpha-02
Registered:
Nov '06
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Date Posted:
11/24/06 11:47am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Katana_Geldar posted:
*nods*
Remind me where that's quoted from, I think it's in DN but I'm not too sure.
Yep it's in DN, not entirely sure which novel, but I wanna say TSW.
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"As always, fat one, you have miscalculated. And while I find this small droid annoying to the extreme, I find my urge to shoot you takes a higher priority." The Eyes Of The Storm http://boards.theforce.net/before_the_saga/b10475/26974904
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