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Topic:
Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Sinrebirth
Title: Hierarch and Chancellor of EUCity
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
11/24/06 1:35pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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"There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you’ve constructed an entire philosophy of evil."
It's Betrayal. Ben is remembering something his father said, while he's on Centerpoint.
Very troubled, he becomes.
Vergere never said anything about the ends justifying the means. She simply threw out some limitations on her because there was a genocidal galactic war on.
If she spoke of ends justifying the means, Alpha Red would've killed the Galaxy by now.
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Sey's Sinre  The Missing Chapters of LotF: Invincible http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=28933751&brd=10477&replies=10 Chapter 2.5 is up now! Featuring Wedge, Dician, Niathal, Daala, Valin and Syal!
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Alpha-02
Registered:
Nov '06
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Date Posted:
11/24/06 2:01pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Sinrebirth posted:
"There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you’ve constructed an entire philosophy of evil."
It's Betrayal. Ben is remembering something his father said, while he's on Centerpoint.
Ah ok, don't know what I thought it was TSW in that case 
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"As always, fat one, you have miscalculated. And while I find this small droid annoying to the extreme, I find my urge to shoot you takes a higher priority." The Eyes Of The Storm http://boards.theforce.net/before_the_saga/b10475/26974904
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
11/24/06 10:43pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Sinrebirth posted:
"There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you’ve constructed an entire philosophy of evil."
It's Betrayal. Ben is remembering something his father said, while he's on Centerpoint.
Very troubled, he becomes.
Vergere never said anything about the ends justifying the means. She simply threw out some limitations on her because there was a genocidal galactic war on.
If she spoke of ends justifying the means, Alpha Red would've killed the Galaxy by now.
You misunderstand.
I'm saying that the philosophy is more of the ends justify the means if the ends are "good." Genocide would hardly be considered "good" by Vergere, hence she did whatever she could to stop it. The whatever she could at all costs for a "good" end is where the philosphy kind of breaks down, no?
"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil."
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"Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman
"Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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Sinrebirth
Title: Hierarch and Chancellor of EUCity
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
11/25/06 12:10am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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dp4m posted:
Sinrebirth posted:
"There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you’ve constructed an entire philosophy of evil."
It's Betrayal. Ben is remembering something his father said, while he's on Centerpoint.
Very troubled, he becomes.
Vergere never said anything about the ends justifying the means. She simply threw out some limitations on her because there was a genocidal galactic war on.
If she spoke of ends justifying the means, Alpha Red would've killed the Galaxy by now.
You misunderstand.
I'm saying that the philosophy is more of the ends justify the means if the ends are "good." Genocide would hardly be considered "good" by Vergere, hence she did whatever she could to stop it. The whatever she could at all costs for a "good" end is where the philosphy kind of breaks down, no?
"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil."
Ends justifying the means, ie a good ending.
The intended ending of Alpha Red was not the destruction of Galactic life, it intended ending was the removal of 'evil'; the violent, destructive and, at this point of the war, largely ascendant Yuuzhan Vong.
The evil is incidental, the good ending - the end of the war - wanted.
Vergere wasn't interested in that. The ends most certainly justified the means per that decidedly utilitarian approach, but she didn't embrace them here.
Comparison being Jacen's approach to Centerpoint in Betrayal. He simply would have used it, per Betrayal's narrative. Regardless of the loss of life.
Comparison being Jacen's approach to the Killiks in DN. He wanted to genocide them. Completely.
"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"
Hidebound, uncaring, and inclined to overthrow Galaxy-chosen governments? Or simply the statement where "Sith deal in Absolutes?" Or where Qui-Gon manipulates the chance cubes so he gets Anakin in the Boonta? Or where Mace attacks an opponent who has surrendered?
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
11/25/06 10:16am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Sinrebirth posted:
Ends justifying the means, ie a good ending.
The intended ending of Alpha Red was not the destruction of Galactic life, it intended ending was the removal of 'evil'; the violent, destructive and, at this point of the war, largely ascendant Yuuzhan Vong.
The evil is incidental, the good ending - the end of the war - wanted.
Vergere wasn't interested in that. The ends most certainly justified the means per that decidedly utilitarian approach, but she didn't embrace them here.
Comparison being Jacen's approach to Centerpoint in Betrayal. He simply would have used it, per Betrayal's narrative. Regardless of the loss of life.
Comparison being Jacen's approach to the Killiks in DN. He wanted to genocide them. Completely.
"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil"
Hidebound, uncaring, and inclined to overthrow Galaxy-chosen governments? Or simply the statement where "Sith deal in Absolutes?" Or where Qui-Gon manipulates the chance cubes so he gets Anakin in the Boonta? Or where Mace attacks an opponent who has surrendered?
But this is my point: Jacen's views are that he is performing a GOOD act, thus the means justify his ends. Vergere was similar in that HER goals -- whatever they may have been -- were good in her mind and she would have done literally anything to make sure they occurred, up to and including supposedly sacrificing her own life.
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"Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman
"Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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Alpha-02
Registered:
Nov '06
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Date Posted:
11/25/06 12:20pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
- Date Edited:
11/25/06 12:20pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Alpha-02
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dp4m posted:
But this is my point: Jacen's views are that he is performing a GOOD act, thus the means justify his ends.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression that Jacen believes he is doing what he is doing for the good of the galaxy in the long run. Whoever he has to alienate/turn against him, whoever he has to kill, whatever he needs to do, he will do all of this because in the end he believes that good will come from it and the galaxy will be a better place. Surely that would be the end justifying the means, not the other way around.
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"As always, fat one, you have miscalculated. And while I find this small droid annoying to the extreme, I find my urge to shoot you takes a higher priority." The Eyes Of The Storm http://boards.theforce.net/before_the_saga/b10475/26974904
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
11/25/06 2:10pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Alpha-02 posted:
dp4m posted:
But this is my point: Jacen's views are that he is performing a GOOD act, thus the means justify his ends.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression that Jacen believes he is doing what he is doing for the good of the galaxy in the long run. Whoever he has to alienate/turn against him, whoever he has to kill, whatever he needs to do, he will do all of this because in the end he believes that good will come from it and the galaxy will be a better place. Surely that would be the end justifying the means, not the other way around.
"Good of the Galaxy in the long run" is an ends-view, not a means-view.
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"Looks like you're about to get pwned" - Eric Cartman
"Awarding experience points for cleverly and creatively generating an enjoyable experience. How warped is that?" - Darths & Droids
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Alpha-02
Registered:
Nov '06
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Date Posted:
11/25/06 2:21pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Exactly, so because he has this glorious vision of what will be at the end, he is using this to justify his means.
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"As always, fat one, you have miscalculated. And while I find this small droid annoying to the extreme, I find my urge to shoot you takes a higher priority." The Eyes Of The Storm http://boards.theforce.net/before_the_saga/b10475/26974904
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Katana_Geldar
Title: CT Trivia Winner
Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
11/26/06 3:48pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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But this is my point: Jacen's views are that he is performing a GOOD act, thus the means justify his ends. Vergere was similar in that HER goals -- whatever they may have been -- were good in her mind and she would have done literally anything to make sure they occurred, up to and including supposedly sacrificing her own life.
Then why are a lot of Vergere's arguments about the importnance of means not ends?
Here are a few quotes:
Ah, I see. You can do whatever you want, so long as you maintain your Jedi calm? So long as you can tell yourself you’re valuing life? You can kill and kill and kill and kill, so long as you don’t lose your temper? Isn’t that a little sick?
Out of control is just code for ‘I don’t want to admit I’m the kind of person who would do such things.’
It’s a lie.
and in case you don't believe me, here's a prequel-era quote along the same lines:
Feelings don’t come with ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ labels. You feel how you feel. You are only responsible for how you act.
One thing that I eventually discovered while doing this essay was the extreme (and yes I mean extreme) difference between the Vergere shown and referred to in the NJO and the Vergere referred to in DN and after. With the exception of some parts of Destiny's Way they are almost two completely different characters and IMHO should be treated as such, in a similar way there are TWO Jacens, or three if you count the one in Young Jedi Knights.
If we take the 'two Vergeres' argument we have a theory that is a sort of synthesis between those that advocate Vergere from when she was in the NJO and those who go for the later Vergere and disregard what happened earlier. This goes for everything in her teachings, about power, about ends and means and her most contraversial teaching of all: that there was no dark side within the Force itself.
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BigDamnHero
Registered:
Oct '06
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Date Posted:
11/26/06 5:16pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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So if Vergere is a "means" person why is she torturing Jacen at the start of Traitor.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: CT Trivia Winner
Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
11/26/06 8:34pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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I never said I had all the answers, I even admit that in the essay. Vergere torturing Jacen is definitely an "ends" rather than a "means" and seems to derride the entire argument.
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BigDamnHero
Registered:
Oct '06
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Date Posted:
11/27/06 11:37am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Fair enough. Like I said earlier your essay is well done and very interesting, I just don't completely agree with it.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: CT Trivia Winner
Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
11/28/06 7:28pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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I don't aim to convert, if by readin it it makes you ask some questions then I consider it a job well-done.
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sonnymyson
Registered:
Dec '04
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Date Posted:
12/22/06 6:40pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
- Date Edited:
12/22/06 6:42pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
sonnymyson
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That it is.
I had a 'feeling' that Vergere was right. It was highly interesting that while pondering on his new understanding of the Force on Zonama Sekot, Luke begins to copy Vergere's insights into his own. The same thing happens to me all the time. My husband will tell me we have to do something as if he's just thought it up, that I suggested months back.
Methinks blue-ghosty Vergere was listening and smirking as much as her chitinous face would allow.
The Betrayal Jacen has obviously begun to slip away from the mindfulness Vergere taught. When he takes actions in the later novels, once no longer in Lumiya's asteroid funhouse, he begins to act without thinking, finding thinking leads to a sort of paralysis, then berates himself for not having thought about what he just did. Yet when he thinks, he does the more reprehensible sorts of things IMO.
I know Vergere's teachings are going to keep cropping up in the Legacy novels.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
12/22/06 7:04pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Katana_Geldar posted:
Very good point, Alpha. Though again, that can be disputed in the EU. *cough* Exar Kun *cough* But ROTS novel is a higher canonical source.
The Sith are creatures of pure evil.
The immortality of the Jedi is different from what they do.
The ghost of Vegere well could have been a spirit merged with the Dark Side.
Or she could have redeemed herself.
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