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Topic:
Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
12/22/06 7:24pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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In general, what it boils down to is a fairly simple synthesis of philosophies.
Vergere: Potenium-Sith-Jedi Synthesis or what I call "Gardening"
Vergere is not a Sith despite Lumiya's claim. She tried to kill Darth Sidious for moral reasons and thus very clearly failed in her training. The fact that she later fled to the followers of the Potenium and further refined her understanding of the Force helps accent this.
Her philosophy, both good and evil, is that the Dark Side is a strictly internal matter. That one is justified in going to elaborate lengths to 'educate' another being and that genocide is never justified since the enemy of a force is in fact that IDEAS are the foe rather than the people involved (oddly, this last bit is a very clear Jedi idea)
Jacen Soloism: Sith-Jedi, called "Sith Sephirothism"
Jacen Solo was warped somewhat by Vegere's teachings but ironically, he disregarded the most fundamental portions of it. Jacen believes strongly in an external Dark Side unlike Vergere. He however believes that intent protects a person from its corruption. He furthermore is no longer interested in education but "sheering" away the corruptive elements as a whole including the use of genocide if necessary.
He thinks the Sith way can be used to make the galaxy a better place.
In general, I do think Vergere failed to realize that the Force isn't subjective in nature. It's a highly metaphorical but absolute thing that has a form of consciousness and while it encompasses all things. It is not ALL THINGS EQUALLY. It doesn't matter what you believe about your ethics or your methods, its like using a radioactive isotope in your sword. Whether the sword is used for good or evil, it'll give you cancer.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
12/22/06 10:57pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Charlemagne19 posted:
Katana_Geldar posted:
Very good point, Alpha. Though again, that can be disputed in the EU. *cough* Exar Kun *cough* But ROTS novel is a higher canonical source.
The Sith are creatures of pure evil.
The immortality of the Jedi is different from what they do.
The ghost of Vegere well could have been a spirit merged with the Dark Side.
Or she could have redeemed herself.
Or she was a lightsider to begin with.
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Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
12/22/06 10:58pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Havac posted:
Or she was a lightsider to begin with.
I like my Lightsiders a little less torture friendly.
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Havac
Title: Lit Mod of Awayness
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
12/22/06 11:47pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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I don't.
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Slaughter is the best medicine
Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Sexually Ambiguous Tusken Raider™ and a Special Golden Ewok™
"Reality doesn't care if you believe it." - Boba Fett
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
12/23/06 12:03am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (Possible Bloodlines Spoilers | Essay Posted)
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Havac posted:
I don't.
Kent Brockman: Touche.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
7/9 7:24am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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bump
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K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
7/9 4:57pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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I moved the essay to fanon, so it's easier to read than at the website, the other day I sat down and wrote this as a sort of reflection:
It has been almost two years since I sat down to begin writing ‘Jacen and the Two Vergeres’ and while it’s impact on the continuity debate surrounding her has not been as notable as I would have hoped, it still has had some significance in the debates on the Jedi Council Forums and at times, as Legacy of the Force developed, there still remained to possibility that Jacen (or JINO as he is called now, an acronym for Jacen In Name Only) was wrong about Vergere and that later she would show up and give him a rap on the knuckles.
However, things have changed since then, and while I have not changed my views about Vergere’s textual origins, the new directions she has been taken in regards to Legacy of the Force and the comic series Legacy more or less agreed with the predictions that I made in the concluding paragraph of the essay below: Del Rey have sacrificed quality and continuity for the sake of selling books. The only form of protest I can make is to refuse to read them, which I have: the only time I read a Legacy of the Force was two years ago for the purposes of this essay, but I have kept up with the series through the Wookieepedia and the Jedi Council Forums.
I am one of a growing number of Expanded Universe fans that have grown disillusioned of what Del Rey keeps on giving to us; the numbers grew as the series continued which left a rather hollow victory. But in the end I feel a little like Ashley Wilks when he returns to Tara halfway through Gone with the Wind: I find that the world has no place for someone of my views.
That said, this essay has had some impact on the views of fans, particularly the “two Vergeres” theory which seems to make a lot of sense to some people, even though it was something that is tumbled onto by accident. I also feel that I need to say that Matthew Stover, whose books I praised so highly in the essay, has actually ready this and complimented its coherence and clarity. He of course was unable to tell me of his opinions of my conclusions when I spoke to him (via Private Message on the Jedi Council Forums) as he is still under contract to Del Rey. However, since Vergere was always meant to be a controversial character, this is hardly surprising.
May the Force be with you, always, Katana Geldar
I've noticed that I'm not the only one disillusioned by where the EU is going, however, I was among the first to do so.
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TuskenTommy
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
7/10 10:11am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
- Date Edited:
7/10 10:19am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
TuskenTommy
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Katana, how long do you think the library wait will be for the whole series?
--I checked out Allegiance from my library and returned it 2 months late. I totaly forgot about it.. Well they charged me $32. But that's not even it.. They sent me to collections..  ..... Collections!
-Great read, but i think you are only hurting yourself by not buying the books. Mayb you can buy them used. That way Your helping out another fan..Not my business...so moving along.
-I have my opinion of Vergere & i'm not changing it....Similar to how i had my opinions on what Obi-Wan did for 18 years in The Dune Sea.. No way am i letting Ryder WIndum(sp) change that...Vergere to me is a twisted lightsider. Twisted because she was somewhat alone for 50 years.. She shoulda survived taht A-wing fiaco & shown up in say Revelations or Invincile and we'd have Jacen still...
--Vergere apprenticed to Palpatine(briefly) where did that come from anyways?
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DarthStymi
Registered:
Jan '02
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Date Posted:
7/12 4:31am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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So where is this "essay?" Is there a link to it somewhere?
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
7/12 4:41am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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The essay in in my sig, and Vergere being Palpatine's apprentice is mentioned in Betrayal, but I don't think it was ever made official.
BTW, I had some probs with the wiking on there and two of the quotes are bolded and aren't meant to be. If anyone can fix them, I'd be glad as I can't figure it out.
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Irandrura
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
7/12 6:29am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Katana_Geldar posted:
The essay in in my sig, and Vergere being Palpatine's apprentice is mentioned in Betrayal, but I don't think it was ever made official.
Legacy: Claws of the Dragon shows it in flashback, I think.
It's still a travesty, though.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
7/12 6:36am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Irandrura posted:
Katana_Geldar posted:
The essay in in my sig, and Vergere being Palpatine's apprentice is mentioned in Betrayal, but I don't think it was ever made official.
Legacy: Claws of the Dragon shows it in flashback, I think.
It's still a travesty, though.
Yeah, but in terms of stuff coming out that was AFTER, when I first wrote the essay we were still debating who Krayt was.
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Irandrura
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
7/12 7:02am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Which is fair enough, and I am a fan of the essay, as I am of everything well-considered and philosophical about the Force, but just for completeness' sake...
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
7/12 7:10am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Irandrura posted:
Which is fair enough, and I am a fan of the essay, as I am of everything well-considered and philosophical about the Force, but just for completeness' sake...
What, you want me to change it to reflect what's happened since then? Sorry, won't happen. It exists at a particular point in time in terms of what was happening in the EU, and while I might comment on it I'm not changing it.
Besides, IMHO the Krayt and Vergere scenes were a retcon for Del Rey to clarify her as a dark sider.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
7/12 7:18am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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I don't see why she has to be a Dark Sider.
What's wrong with learning from Palpatine then trying to kill him out of revulsion?
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