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Topic:
Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
7/12 7:35am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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I don't see why she has to be a dark sider either, Charles, that's why I wrote this in the first place to see what side of the fence she was on. I was very surprised when a lot of what she said was concurrent with Republic-Era Jedi as well as Luke and the end of TUF.
However, the galaxy keeps on turning and we have to accept she is a dark sider because the proof has been set up that she was one, and not just through Lumiya.
If it was only Lumiya, I might still have an argument.
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Jacen and the two Vergeres http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:Katana_Geldar/Jacen_Solo%2C_Vergere_and_the_Force "They press some bum button and out comes the beams." - Excellence Aliena nobis, nostra plus aliis placent.
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DarthStymi
Registered:
Jan '02
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Date Posted:
7/12 9:14am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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You don't have to change it. But wikis aren't fixed, and you can add to it: new insights, reflections, and/or afterthoughts that takes into account new information--sort of like an afterword or epilogue.
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Charlemagne19
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
7/12 9:17am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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I'm confused.
What sets her up as a Dark Sider?
What's established is she studied under the Sith.
That hasn't changed.
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Check out Halt Evil Doer!: The RPG setting for Super Heroes! Halt Evil Doer PDF: http://tinyurl.com/555axt
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Irandrura
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
7/12 9:31am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Katana_Geldar posted:
What, you want me to change it to reflect what's happened since then?
No, no, you misunderstand. Merely for purposes of this topic.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
7/13 2:18am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Charlemagne19 posted:
I'm confused.
What sets her up as a Dark Sider?
What's established is she studied under the Sith.
That hasn't changed.
What's changed is that there is more than once source (other than Lumiya) that says she studied under the Sith. I didn't believe Lumiya in Betrayal (and why should I, she lied her head off in Marvel) but now there aree other sources, it's changed.
Katana's essay posted:
Until this is shown from an independent source not controlled by her I am willing to retain that the Traitor Vergere is the correct version and everything different since then is only a distortion.
and from the preface
Katana's essay posted:
...there still remained to possibility that Jacen...was wrong about Vergere and that later she would show up and give him a rap on the knuckles.
And Indura, I'll continue to monitor what's going on Vergere-wise. I haven't made up my mind whether to read Millennium Falcon yet or not, maybe Luceno will do some sort of re-interpretation about Jacen there, but I doubt it.
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Jacen and the two Vergeres http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:Katana_Geldar/Jacen_Solo%2C_Vergere_and_the_Force "They press some bum button and out comes the beams." - Excellence Aliena nobis, nostra plus aliis placent.
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Lord_Hydronium
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
7/13 2:37am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Katana_Geldar posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
I'm confused.
What sets her up as a Dark Sider?
What's established is she studied under the Sith.
That hasn't changed.
What's changed is that there is more than once source (other than Lumiya) that says she studied under the Sith. I didn't believe Lumiya in Betrayal (and why should I, she lied her head off in Marvel) but now there aree other sources, it's changed.
I think what Chuck is saying is that just because she studied under the Sith doesn't make her a dark sider afterwards. Luke studied under the Sith, for example.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
7/13 2:55am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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According to the Wook, Vergere didn't just study under the Sith but was trying to re-establish the Sith Order. Luke may have been a Sith, but he didn't do that.
I like it about as much as you guys do, perhaps less, but it's what's accepted and we have to live with it whether we like it or not.
If your asking for my own personal continuity, Vergere was sadly mis-interpreted by later EU authors.
Here's something interesting:
Wookieepedia posted:
It is possible either that her cruelty was due to the NJO planners' knowledge of her Sith allegiance or that fan outrage inspired a retcon that reinvented her as a Sith. There is substantial evidence to discredit the former theory. In an interview after the 6th book in the Legacy of the Force series - Inferno - the writers mentioned that there was no "uberplot" between their books and the Dark Nest Trilogy, much less the NJO series. Furthermore, Matthew Stover, the author of Traitor, spoke in a blog pertaining to his book, revealing that he actually believed what Vergere claimed about the Force.
So I was right, Vergere the dark sider WAS a retcon. I hate it when I'm right.
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Jacen and the two Vergeres http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:Katana_Geldar/Jacen_Solo%2C_Vergere_and_the_Force "They press some bum button and out comes the beams." - Excellence Aliena nobis, nostra plus aliis placent.
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dmellstrom
Registered:
Jan '08
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Date Posted:
7/13 9:29am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
- Date Edited:
7/13 9:55am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
dmellstrom
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Somehow, I never fully understood Vergere's intentions. Jacen seems to think in Bloodlines that she intended him to become a Sith. From her use of the Force, however, she always struck me as more of a believer in the Jedi way. She sacrifices herself to save another, which is more of a Jedi trait. However, she is hard to judge as she is not a human and does not have some of our weaknesses (such as wearing our hearts on our sleeves). She also has non-human psychology, so perhaps she is truly a full Sith but for other reasons does not act in the way a human Sith Lord would.
ADDENDUM: I was in a duality-oriented mindset when i posted this, but i stand by my statements. If dark-siders seek to dominate others and light-siders seek to prevent injustice and protect the innocent etc., what do Gray Jedi do? just follow the will of the Force? or are they actually light-gray...
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Master-Chief-Kenobi
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
7/13 10:40am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Lord_Hydronium posted:
Katana_Geldar posted:
Charlemagne19 posted:
I'm confused.
What sets her up as a Dark Sider?
What's established is she studied under the Sith.
That hasn't changed.
What's changed is that there is more than once source (other than Lumiya) that says she studied under the Sith. I didn't believe Lumiya in Betrayal (and why should I, she lied her head off in Marvel) but now there aree other sources, it's changed.
I think what Chuck is saying is that just because she studied under the Sith doesn't make her a dark sider afterwards. Luke studied under the Sith, for example.
And Krayt also mentions in that issue that he doesn't really believe her. We still only have Lumiya's word that she's definitivly a sith, and since when can a sith be trusted to tell the truth?
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J_K_DART
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
7/13 3:41pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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What's the canon status of Wizards of the Coast?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/BtT1
WotC posted:
Although the Rule of Two prevented Vader from taking on a true apprentice, he did pass his teachings to pupils, notably the Dark Lady of the Sith, Lumiya. She trained several apprentices during this era, but they are not truly Sith because Lumiya herself does not become full-fledged Sith until her training by Vergere in the Legacy era.
In The New Jedi Order era, the Sith are all but extinct. It is only through the training of Vergere that Lumiya becomes a true Dark Lady of the Sith. Dark Jedi characters would be more appropriate.
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"Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni."
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"Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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Nobody145
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
7/13 4:26pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Isn't that the article that mentions a "Jacen Skywalker"? I haven't bothered to read it myself, but I think there was a bit of a discussion about it a little while ago.
Anyway, while Luke studied under the Sith, we have decades of Luke fighting the good fight after that... dark moment. With Vergere, during NJO, at best she just seemed extremely unorthodox, but she passed her philosophy onto Jacen, then from Jacen onto the rest of Luke's NJO, and that helped them win the Yuuzhan Vong War, something cited off during LotF when people are depressed about what Jacen has become (like when Han thinks they should've just dropped him out the window when he was born). With Vergere, during NJO, once she became a little less mysterious, she was mostly helping the good guys.
Then LotF came along, and according to Lumiya, everything Vergere did, including sacrificing herself for Jacen, was meant to shape Jacen into the next Dark Lord of the Sith. Of course, its not like Lumiya's all that trustworthy a source, but Jacen swallows everything, hook, line and sinker. Krayt's flashback fits with Lumiya's version, but in the flashback, Vergere is stll ambiguous enough to maybe not be evil. Otherwise, its canon she's Sith evil, and always was like that. And the version of Sith stuff Lumiya was feeding to Jacen emphasized sacrifice as a very important part. It all sounded very silly, but Jacen loved it, and Vergere sacrificing her life for Jacen fit in with that particular version of events. It sounds really stupid, but it sorta works. And while Vergere did try to kill Palpatine, apparently that was more due to an egostitical Palpatine being a bigger threat to the Sith than anything else, not any remotely heroic behavior. Which is all quite depressing to read about, but oh well, that's LotF.
I'm almost willing to accept Krayt's word, but I doubt I'll ever believe anything Lumiya said. With both Jacen and Lumiya dead, there's not really anybody else left alive to dispute the current canon. Even Krayt's account isn't too clear. Well, there's always RPG, articles and such, but canon does change over time. Its just a really sad canonical story at the moment.
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J_K_DART
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
7/13 4:47pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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It did initially mention "Jacen Skywalker", yeah, but it was changed. Still, I'm wondering; is this out-of-universe canon information re: Vergere's status as a Sith?
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"Victory without risk is like a pizza without pepperoni."
"I like my pizzas without pepperoni."
"Sir master of the long post" - Excellence
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Fettster
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
7/13 9:41pm
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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J_K_DART posted:
It did initially mention "Jacen Skywalker", yeah, but it was changed. Still, I'm wondering; is this out-of-universe canon information re: Vergere's status as a Sith?
Unfortunately (in this case--some of their other stuff is fantastic), yes, Wizards articles are accepted as canon.
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Katana_Geldar
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
7/14 4:35am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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J_K_DART posted:
It did initially mention "Jacen Skywalker", yeah, but it was changed. Still, I'm wondering; is this out-of-universe canon information re: Vergere's status as a Sith?
Sort-of, Vergere's alliegance (if she has any at all) in-universe changes for the simple reason that it does out-of-universe. Ahs she isn't the only character this has happened to. Look at Jaina, Jacen, Cal Omas and to some extent Luke in Betrayal
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Jacen and the two Vergeres http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/User:Katana_Geldar/Jacen_Solo%2C_Vergere_and_the_Force "They press some bum button and out comes the beams." - Excellence Aliena nobis, nostra plus aliis placent.
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Trip
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
7/14 7:33am
Subject:
RE: Vergere, Jacen and the Force (After LOTF | Essay Posted)
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Katana - really, the only source we have explicitly saying Vergere was a Sith is the aforementioned WotC article, which-- as noted-- is very, very poorly researched.
The other sources can all be explained away. Lumiya you've mentioned is an unreliable sources, as are by extension "White Eyes" and company; Krayt, the one most point to as proof of Vergere's Sith affiliation, is simply misremembering. He is, after all, recalling an event that occurred well over a century ago. If he's not misremembering, then he's simply lying-- why he'd lie about this is beyond me, but it's certainly easier to swallow than Vergere training under Palpatine.
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