Jedi Council Forums - Osvald Teshik......framed?

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Author	Topic: Osvald Teshik......framed?
Mariu Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 9/6/06 12:09pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 12:15pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Mariu
	johnthejedi24 posted: I having been reading wookiepedia lately and it came to my conclusion that Osvald Teshik one of the Emperors Grand Admirals was unjustly exrcuted by the Rebel Alliance for "inhuman atrocities committed against the citizens of the galaxy",...wth? Why was this man executed and for what crimes, from what I ahev read on wookiepedia he doesn't seem to be such a bad guy, pretty tame and compaasionate compared to many of the "evil cronies" serving under Palpatine. Heck, teshik had much of his body replaced after he failed to nail that reb privateer dude and the Empeor sent him on a literal suicide mission against the Hapans. He was ostracized by the Empipre due to his new and "REQUIRED" implants and prosthetics but he still served with diginity even after the death star was destroyed, fighting on for 4 more hours. What the hell did he do during his career that caused the rebs to whack him? The wording of the charges against Teshik reminds me of the Nuremberg Trials and the precedent they had set to try military commanders for war crimes and "crimes against humanity"--does that sound familiar now? Doenitz, Keitel, von Manstein, Guderian and others who were more professional soldiers than party hangmen had all been tried and imprisoned (or executed). I suspect the NR's motive is more or less the same as that of the victorious Allies: to reframe the war as not only as a political conflict, but as a moral struggle. Furthermore, it implies a judgment on war itself as criminal except in the case of self-preservation. (I know, I know, slippery ground here...) Charlemagne19 posted: Nevertheless, the Rebellion gained a lot of legitimacy I imagine by trying and executing one of Palpatine's henchmen. I agree, but for a different reason. The trial itself, rather than the prestige of the tried, is what accounts for the legitimacy, considering the Empire has had its share of summary executions. Whoever has the power to judge is the legitimate power in society. In sum, Teshik does seem to be a decent and sympathetic character compared to some other nuts running around the Empire. I am surprised that he hasn't lost his rank, cyborg body and failed mission notwithstanding. Anyway, there is gallantry and tragedy in his last stand at Endor. As for the metallic laughter...it is the final gesture of contempt from a man who has been heaped with enough obloquy by the previous regime to fear any more from the succeeding one. -----signature----- "You can't be a mother and an artist at the same time. Choose!" --Dame Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, to a fellow artist
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 12:54pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	As if 'hell' is any better. You folks got it all backwards... -----signature----- Christmas destroyer
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AdmiralNick22 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 9/6/06 12:58pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: Charlemagne19 posted: FTeik posted: He was the highest ranking Imperial the rebels got their dirty hands on. And wouldn't you laugh, too, if a bunch of terrorists claiming to fight for freedom and justice sentences you to death even if you didn't commit a crime? I think if I'm a smart man, I'd probably recognize that my government does the same for them with far more frequency. Can you really fault the rebellion for turnabout if you're an Imperial? Why would you expect mercy from individuals you've never shown any. Yeah, 'cause those "rules of war" things mean nothing. Apparently it's perfectly acceptable to execute a decorated enemy combatant for crimes he didn't commit in a mock trial. Especially if you add the charges 'treason against the New Republic' and 'destruction of Alliance property.' Yup. And we thought the Empire was bad. Just a hint for anyone planning a counterrevolutionary movement: when you officially declare yourself a legitimate government rather than a Rebellion, i.e. the New Republic, it's very bad form to start by immediately conducting in war crimes. What's marginally defensible in a criminal terrorist organization is not acceptable conduct for a legitimate government. Neither is engaging on a belligerent campaign against another rival government--e.g. the invasion of the Core worlds--without a legitimate casus belli. The "declaration of Rebellion" defended their actions against the Empire previously, but this is akin to the United States invading London after the Constitutional Convention. Osvald Teshik was not framed, he was murdered. The New Republic is a group of war criminals, murderers, war hawks, and corrupt politicians. They are not to be trusted. The Empire is victorious on all fronts. Well, for starters... (Begins defense of New Republic) Oh hell, I don't have the energy for this today. Anything Jello says I usually have the opposite opinion to. --Adm. Nick -----signature----- Fleet Junkie Founding Father Official Greatest Admiral Ackbar Fan "A peaceful Galactic Alliance is the strongest pillar of a peaceful galaxy." - Luke Skywalker "I will surrender, Admiral, when I can no longer fight!" - Admiral Gar Stazi A New Hope
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AdmiralWesJanson Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/6/06 1:10pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	And I lean Corellian, so I just tend to watch these Imperial/Rebel skirmishes from the sidelines. -----signature----- Duke of Corellia Join the Corellian Browncoats in their fight against the evil Alliance! Fix the K-Wing! No more XJs! Make the next X-Wing a T-65K!
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 1:43pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	Counterpoint, The Republic didn't recognize the Empire's legitimacy. It's one of those things that is bizarre in hindsight because there's nothing equivalent to it in our history. Basically though, the New Republic declared itself a government but never once attempted to recognize the Empire in the Core Worlds was a rival government. The Empire was illegal in their opinion and a government that was holding the Republic's worlds hostage. In effect, the Republic frames the conflict in the Empire being the aggressor. The New Republic was reclaiming the worlds held by the Republic FOR the Republic as its successor state. The Empire had no title or claim to these planets as a state that had wrongfully overthrown it. It's an audacious claim but certainly no worse than the Empires. And no offense, what "crimes he didn't commit?" HE WAS A GRAND ADMIRAL. The Rebellion would be perfectly justified in executing him and all of Palpatine's upper staff on the basis of being the party responsible for the Empire's relentless campaigns of military aggression to begin with.
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 1:58pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 1:59pm (1 edits total) Edited By: GrandAdmiralJello
	Mariu: Yes, but there's no moral element to a sham trial. A sham trial under false charges is an excuse to kill someone, it is not an attempt to moralize the conflict. As for the metallic laughter...it is the final gesture of contempt from a man who has been heaped with enough obloquy by the previous regime to fear any more from the succeeding one. Erm, no. Apparently you don't get the joke. Grand Admiral Teshik was seen as less than human because of his cyborg parts. He was executed for, among other things, inhuman atrocities. He finds that rather funny. Nick: C'mon, put up your chops. I haven't brought up the legitimacy angle before, I'd like to see your thoughts on it. Don't make me taunt Ackbar. C19: Yes, but what the New Republic thinks isn't relevant. If they seek to be better than the Empire, if they seek legitimacy, if they seek moral high ground, then they have to exhibit these things! Your argument from the NR's perspective is the same argument an Imperial apologist could use to defend the Empire's actions. The Rebellion isn't legitimate, all its holdings are criminal entities, etc etc. The Empire, at least, had the force of law to prove it--the New Republic had nothing but its say so. In holding those arguments, you demonstrate the New Republic's inherent hypocrisy. They are the same thing as the Empire they seek to supplant. They are no better, but in fact worse, because they stage a Galactic Civil War simply to replace a tyrannical government with another tyranny--just subtitute the leaders. In other wrods, it's a ploy for Dictator Mothma to gain power at the expense of her rival, Emperor Palpatine. Sig Heil, Leader Mothma, sig heil! I imagine Mr. Godwin should be giggling at this point. C19 posted: certainly no worse than the Empire's Ah, but isn't the Rebellion/New Republic's raison d'etre to be BETTER than the Empire? -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 2:09pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 2:10pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	I'm demonstrating my opinion that it's ridiculous to come down hard on the Rebellion for its stated dogma of treating the Empire as an illegal government/terrorist organization/occupation force or whatever you want to call it. Especially if you want to do it by comparison with the Empire. It's NEVER claimed that they viewed the Empire as a legitimate government nor has it EVER attempted to make an offer of peaceful co-existence with the Empire. It's always made it's peace offers entirely within the bonds of surrender, pardon, and coaching within the confines of criminal law. It's not hypocrisy if you've NEVER STATED OTHERWISE that you intended to give mercy to Imperial officers as legitimate enemy combatants. It's easy to point to Teshik and Bevel Lemisk to say "Oh those awful Republicans!" but I also recognize how nasty wartime is and their actions are far better than the Empires by far. Since Day-1, the New Republic's goal (of varying levels of importance but always on teh agenda) it's been "Annihilate the Last Remnants of the Empire." Also, I don't see how it's any morally superior to treat Teshik as anything other than a soldier for a criminal organization. Why is it better to consider the Empire something that warrants consideration as a government? It's certainly given no reason to view it as anything but a group of conquistadors.
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 2:35pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	That's precisely why the Rebellion is hypocritical. They claim to be better than the Empire, yet they follow the exact same path of thinking--without being a lawfully constituted government. They claim to be the legitimate galactic government when they have not been elected to it--then they call the Empire illegitimate. They murder enemies for being criminals--then they decry when the Empire does so. It does not matter what they think. I don't care that the Rebels think it's okay to do so, this isn't a subjective discussion. Objectively, they are nothing but hypocritical scumbags and you're proving the point. The Galactic Empire was a legally constituted government. The Rebellion has nothing but its own declaration, and it became the New Republic on its own say-so. Then, while wearing the mantle of a government, they continue to act as a belligerent terrorist state. Leader Mothma should be ashamed of herself. But, hey, using your logic it's okay for Tarkin to enslave people because he's never viewed them as sentient? Your logic that someone is innocent if they don't believe they're doing wrong is downright silly. Though, yes, I know--you'll tell me it only applies to the Rebellion. Thankfully, I try to stay objective about such things. The Rebellion's actions are indefensible. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 2:53pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	It's not a matter of belief in the slightest. It's a matter of facts. The Republic doesn't have to recognize the Empire as a legitimate government to be morally superior to the Empire. They're better because they don't massacre civilians, crush descent, or engage in a rampaging campaign of fear. It'd be betraying the moral superiority of the Rebellion TO recognize the Empire because their entire morality is based on not letting the Empire get away with its rampages across the galaxy. Teshik doesn't DESERVE any mercy because he WAS a criminal. I'm not getting the justification that a person whom works for a government that ignores all the laws of other countries gets to be tried by the laws of his nation as opposed to the laws of another nation. Plenty of legal precedent in our world says that's not how it works. Especially when the crimes are committed in a foreign land (presumably every world conquered by the empire that Teshik was involved in). Now while it may offend your sensibilities that the Rebellion considers itself the legitimate government and the Empire as an illegal one. The fact remains that the Imperial government had never recognized the Rebellion as a government and the standard rules of war can't really apply because the entire point of the war is the dissolution of the Empire as the stated goal Teshik could have been imprisoned until the end of the Imperial conflict but that's not really legally permissable given that he's not registered as a combatant since the war is based on the premise that the Empire itself is a crime. He certainly qualifies as a member of the Inner Circle of the Empire after all.
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Ris_jSarek Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 9/6/06 3:10pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: Yeah, 'cause those "rules of war" things mean nothing. Apparently it's perfectly acceptable to execute a decorated enemy combatant for crimes he didn't commit in a mock trial. Especially if you add the charges 'treason against the New Republic' and 'destruction of Alliance property.' Yup. And we thought the Empire was bad. Those charges were never made against Teshik in any official literature I've read. He was charged with "inhuman atrocities committed against the citizens of the galaxy." As for "crimes he didn't commit," we have no reason to think that's the case. He lost touch with his emotions after he was cyborged, which occurred a short time after Yavin, which means for three years the formerly compassionate Grand Admiral wandered the spacelanes without that care and compassion. Sociopaths with the authority and tacit permission to commit atrocities are almost certain to do so. It was only when he was rescued on the Second Death Star that the good in him was re-awakened, and we know nothing at all about the time between him losing his emotional grasp and regaining it. In a way, he echoes Vader. Had Vader survived and been brought before a war crimes tribunal, they wouldn't care that "he's good now." And I suspect that Anakin Skywalker would also have laughed a bitter metallic laughter - knowing full well that he deserved his punishment and yet didn't. As for the legitimacy stuff . . . well, I'll let others have their fun with THAT argument. GrandAdmiralJello posted: Erm, no. Apparently you don't get the joke. Grand Admiral Teshik was seen as less than human because of his cyborg parts. He was executed for, among other things, inhuman atrocities. He finds that rather funny. As I see it, there's a lot more to the joke than just that, as I mention above. I don't think the circumstances warranted him laughing at puns. I think it did warrant him laughing at the black irony of his situation, which the pun served to punctuate. GrandAdmiralJello posted: I imagine Mr. Godwin should be giggling at this point. Would he be giggling with . . . metallic laughter? ;-p -----signature----- http://churchofbrad.com/jsarek/ Proud recipient of Halagad_Ventor's MOO (Master of Obscurity) Award, Brett_Bass's Spiffy Crown™, and Thrawn McEwok's "Ohh...? Interesting..." Award™
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EH_Pilot Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/6/06 3:13pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	How can you say the Rebels didn't recognize the Empire when its leaders were former Imperial officials, beuracrats, naval officers, and citizens? People like Mon Mothma, Bel Iblis, and the Organas were a part of the Imperial government! We can't denounce or exonerate Teshik because we don't know what he did, and we don't know how the trial went. Maybe he did commit war crimes, or maybe he did nothing to warrant his execution. -----signature----- Pilot of the Emperor's Hammer TIE Corps www.tiecorps.org Golden Ewok™ Recipient x4; Trojan Ewok™ Recipient -Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero-
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BootlegVader Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 9/6/06 3:16pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	I have to agree with Jello, the Rebellion is fully hypocritical. First mainly how they deal with punishing captive Imperials, for firstly Teshik to how they excuted Lemelisk for his part with the death star but let Qwi Xux go free as a bird. Also Charles the NR must have recognized the Empire as some form of government as how they have made numerous treaties with them in times of crisis, as governments don't make a legal treaty with a criminal enity. -----signature----- Archie Goodwin and Abel G. Pena best Star Wars EU Writers ever!!!!!! Pet a Hoojib for Good Luck.
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AdmiralWesJanson Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 9/6/06 3:22pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	There is also the comment made by Leia about how they could scoop up a double handful of major Imperial leaders and try them, but then any chance the New Republic had of governing the galaxy would go away. There is also the odd situation where the New Republic allowed known Imperials and sympathisers onto the Senate. -----signature----- Duke of Corellia Join the Corellian Browncoats in their fight against the evil Alliance! Fix the K-Wing! No more XJs! Make the next X-Wing a T-65K!
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 3:25pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 3:33pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Charlemagne19
	BootlegVader posted: Also Charles the NR must have recognized the Empire as some form of government as how they have made numerous treaties with them in times of crisis, as governments don't make a legal treaty with a criminal enity. You obviously don't know much about covert operations ;-) The Truce at Bakura's outcome seems to have had a serious effect on Imperial-Rebellion relations as well. BootlegVader posted: There is also the odd situation where the New Republic allowed known Imperials and sympathisers onto the Senate. The situation in the New Rebellion is also one where the Republic is acting under duress. Leia laments the fact that the Rebellion is forced to allow former Imperials into the government and was the one whom drew up the code of law that prevented anyone of the rank of Imperial Governor or above from holding Imperial posts (as well as Stormtroopers). According to the New Rebellion, the Republic was effectively forced by its own democracy to recognize Imperial sympathizers in their ranks. It seems pretty clear that Leia would have preferred to keep the Empire as a criminal organization but their own democractic ideals betrayed them. ....which is pretty much proof they didn't betray them. But yes, the main problem as of The New Rebellion is that the Imperial Mutiny and Civil War with Yssane Isard and the Grand Moffs more or less effectively wiped out the Imperial Command structure by the time the Republic took over the planet of Coruscant.
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 4:19pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	C19: You're still not getting my point. The Galactic Empire can kill Rebels because they are traitors. They're criminals. The Rebellion seems to deplore this practice--and yet they adopt the same angle, apparently not recognizing enemy combatants as legitimate military officers and are thus able to employ sham trials against them. He was tried as a symbol, not a person. That's the Rebellion's crime. No one's made the suggestion that he be tried under Imperial laws. Don't be silly. The question is, how did the Rebellion kill him? Was he killed immediately after Endor, as a terrorist action by an insurrectionist movement? Was he killed at least six months after Endor, by an ostensibly legitimate "New Republic"? If it's the latter, he has to be tried according to the rules of WAR. These are timeless constraints to conduct and they have to be followed. They were not. Osvald Teshik has not committed any atrocities, because these things tend to be widely reported, especially in New Republic historical documents. The "New Republic" is adopting the same tactics as the Empire. Regardless of whether or not they recognize the Empire (which is immediately), they are liars and hypocrits. They are not heroes. I suppose Karl Doenitz ought to have been immediately put to death since he was buddy buddy with Hitler, right? Certainly a member of the inner circle. Who cares what he did, he's bad just because he holds a high position. Why not purge the entire leadership of your enemies? If an Imperial apologist suggested such a thing, you'd cry bloody murder. jSarek: Emotionless does not equate to sociopathic. They have emotions--in abundance! You are using an assumption as your justification. That is begging the question. The New Republic's own historical documents--which have never been unforthcoming in gleefully listing 'atrocities'--fail to mention a thing about Teshik's supposed atrocities. In fact, all we know is that he was compassionate and took his duties to defend the Core seriously. We are told nothing about the period between his disaster in Hapan space and the Battle of Endor. Surely, if his record is as terrible as you suggest, we'd have heard something? Anything? Nope, nothing. Lord Vader could have been tried, even after he was 'redeemed'. There is plenty of evidence for that (though it's my opinion Skywalker would have arranged for his father to be pardoned). There is none for Teshik. When's the last time you read a book on Nuremberg that did not mention anything at all about the executed prisoner's war crimes? -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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