Jedi Council Forums - Osvald Teshik......framed?

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Author	Topic: Osvald Teshik......framed?
Ris_jSarek Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 9/6/06 6:45pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	Charlemagne19 posted: Edit: But yes, to be formal it was exactly 1 month after the Battle of Endor that the Declaration of a New Republic was actually formally chartered. Which in fact does dilute the whole Bakura incident. ... In retrospect, Admiral Teshik was actually killed by the REBELLION rather than the New Republic. Unless the Alliance of Free planets existed before the Declaration. Tough call. Nope. All sources that talk about Teshik's trial and execution state it was handled by the New Republic. Which makes sense; I don't think we've ever managed to get a war trial started in under a month in the real world, either. -----signature----- http://churchofbrad.com/jsarek/ Proud recipient of Halagad_Ventor's MOO (Master of Obscurity) Award, Brett_Bass's Spiffy Crown™, and Thrawn McEwok's "Ohh...? Interesting..." Award™
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 6:49pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	jSarek: The difference is that it isn't up to a defendant to do so. It's up to an accusator to demonstrate guilt--and while absence of evidence certainly doesn't constitute evidence of absence, our knowledge of the NR's very keen happiness to repeatedly mention Imperial atrocities does constitute evidence. We know full well how the NR's writers function and we know full well what their habits are. The fact that they could not list a single atrocity that Grand Admiral Teshik performed is conclusive for our purposes. Since when has the NR ever neglected to mention an atrocity at all? Especially if it's of the scale that's high-profile enough to warrant state execution for it? -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 7:05pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: The fact that they could not list a single atrocity that Grand Admiral Teshik performed is conclusive for our purposes. Since when has the NR ever neglected to mention an atrocity at all? Especially if it's of the scale that's high-profile enough to warrant state execution for it? Counterpoint, we have the unprovoked attack on Hapes.
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Ris_jSarek Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 9/6/06 7:06pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: jSarek: The difference is that it isn't up to a defendant to do so. It's up to an accusator to demonstrate guilt--and while absence of evidence certainly doesn't constitute evidence of absence, our knowledge of the NR's very keen happiness to repeatedly mention Imperial atrocities does constitute evidence. We know full well how the NR's writers function and we know full well what their habits are. The fact that they could not list a single atrocity that Grand Admiral Teshik performed is conclusive for our purposes. Since when has the NR ever neglected to mention an atrocity at all? Especially if it's of the scale that's high-profile enough to warrant state execution for it? The thing is - we're neither defendant nor accusator. Nor are we the jury that the guilt must be proven to, nor are we the citizenry of the galaxy that has a right to see this trial for the sake of transparency. We're just spectators well after the fact. The rule isn't that a person is innocent until proven guilty - it's that a person is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. And he, apparently, was. As for unlisted atrocities, I already addressed that. There hasn't been enough written about him at all to require the enumeration of his crimes. Never lose sight of the fact that this universe is constantly evolving in the real world, and other than a brief mention in The Far Orbit Project, Teshik's story wasn't even invented until three years ago, and the recent and current direction of the EU hasn't brought us back to him yet. -----signature----- http://churchofbrad.com/jsarek/ Proud recipient of Halagad_Ventor's MOO (Master of Obscurity) Award, Brett_Bass's Spiffy Crown™, and Thrawn McEwok's "Ohh...? Interesting..." Award™
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 8:47pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	Again, the NR is writing the books. There is no reason for them, in-universe, to neglect mentioning atrocities. Atrocities aren't mundane things that people don't have time to mention. We don't need to hear who Teshik married or what planet he's from. But if he committed atrocities worth executing him for, why not name even a single one of them? You're assuming that because he was convicted, he was guilty. This does not follow. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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SuperSaiyaMan12 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 9/6/06 9:03pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 9:07pm (1 edits total) Edited By: SuperSaiyaMan12
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: Again, the NR is writing the books. There is no reason for them, in-universe, to neglect mentioning atrocities. Atrocities aren't mundane things that people don't have time to mention. We don't need to hear who Teshik married or what planet he's from. But if he committed atrocities worth executing him for, why not name even a single one of them? You're assuming that because he was convicted, he was guilty. This does not follow. GAJ, you're just ignoring facts now since you keep proclaiming them "Rebellion/New Republic" propoganda. Guess what: LUCAS SAID THE EMPIRE WAS EVIL. That overrules everthing you're trying to claim. Lucas Rebellion=Good, Empire=Evil. It doesn't get any clearer than that, and his word is law for Star Wars. So...pretty much defeats your arguement that the Empire was good, and the Rebellion was evil. The Empire ceased being evil when it started following rules of conduct against legitimete enemies, IE the New Republic, when Daala killed the Moff Council and Pallaeon took control of the Imperial Fleet.
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 9:08pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 9:15pm (1 edits total) Edited By: GrandAdmiralJello
	What are you talking about, and how does that have anything to do with the topic? Let me go through this, bit by bit. I. Read the title of the thread. It has to do with an execution. Who's the good guy doesn't matter. II. Read any EU reference book, ever made. Read the intro. You'll be enlightened. III. Comments made by Lucas that aren't in the material aren't canonical. If they were, we'd all be mispronouncing words and using lazersword as the canonical term. IV. Daala did not kill the mofference. V. Pelly did not gain control of the Imperial Fleet. VI. Legitimacy has nothing to do with performing the deeds listed in IV and V VII. Try not to do this sort of thing again. It looks very bad. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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SuperSaiyaMan12 Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 9/6/06 9:13pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: What are you talking about, and how does that have anything to do with the topic? Actually, it is responding to everything you've said about the Rebellion on this topic. You basically labeled them as evil, and again labeled the Empire as good. Which disputes canon, and also whenever canon sources say the Empire was the evil force, including most of their Grand Admirals, and the Rebellion was the good guys...you label it as propoganda and dismiss it. You always do that.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 9:14pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: Again, the NR is writing the books. There is no reason for them, in-universe, to neglect mentioning atrocities. Atrocities aren't mundane things that people don't have time to mention. We don't need to hear who Teshik married or what planet he's from. But if he committed atrocities worth executing him for, why not name even a single one of them? You're assuming that because he was convicted, he was guilty. This does not follow. That's a false premie. This historical document doesn't appear to be anything other than a general universe textbook. There's no reason to assume that Voren Na'al felt the need to describe the details of the trial beyond the "inhuman crimes against sapients" business. Its also possible he's just a rotten historian.
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EH_Pilot Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/6/06 9:17pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 9:19pm (2 edits total) Edited By: EH_Pilot
	SuperSaiyaMan12: So bombing Khomm's cities to rubble fits into the NR rules of conduct? Jello: Since we know next to nothing about Grand Admiral Teshik's trial, there is no way to know for certain what he did, what accusations the Rebels brought against him, and what evidence was given in court. Sure, I think it's a shame poor Teshik was executed, but we don't know with any certainty whether or not Teshik didn't do anything to deserve his punishment. On that note, it's interesting to note the Rebels were more than willing to cooperate with Zaarin, never mind the fact he was responsible for most of the Empire's advances in starfighter and miniature beam projector technology. -----signature----- Pilot of the Emperor's Hammer TIE Corps www.tiecorps.org Golden Ewok™ Recipient x4; Trojan Ewok™ Recipient -Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero-
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 9:20pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 9:23pm (1 edits total) Edited By: GrandAdmiralJello
	False premise? You're referring to my conclusion. Can you name me other instances where Imperial atrocities are referred to--especially in multiple sources--but never explained? Does one refer to Lieutenant Bob's atrocity and then never explain it? Even most throwaway references don't do that sort of thing, they tend to use descriptive titles like Massacre and whatnot. Yet for this, there's nothing. It doesn't fit. SaiyaMan: Kindly read my edit above. Then proceed to explain what this has to do with good or evil, since I certainly hadn't brought it up. And get in topic, if you don't mind. Strolling into a thread to make personal comments that have nothing to do with the thread is bad. EH: There's no way to know--but we can still conclude that something's up when there's a disturbing lack of evidence on these supposed atrocities. This is not usual--the Rebels go out of their way to mention these things. My ultimate conclusion that he was killed as a symbol is not disputed, the dispute is whether or not this aberration is entirely innocent or indicative of foul play. I smell a fish, though, especially given the disparity between his treatment and their treatment of others, especially Grant. It's very clear that they were looking for any reason to have him executed. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 9:27pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: False premise? You're referring to my conclusion. Can you name me other instances where Imperial atrocities are referred to--especially in multiple sources--but never explained? Does one refer to Lieutenant Bob's atrocity and then never explain it? Even most throwaway references don't do that sort of thing, they tend to use descriptive titles like Massacre and whatnot. Yet for this, there's nothing. It doesn't fit. Counterpoint, why didn't the original Chronicles list the names of the original 12 Grand Admirals? That's some plizz poor storytelling. You'd think they'd also mention at least some of the GENERALITIES of the clone wars. You're reaching here. They didn't mention any specifics because the original write up for Teshik didn't include any atrocities of note. You also didn't mention whether you thought the unprovoked assault on Hapes qualifies as a war crime.
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 9/6/06 9:40pm Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/6/06 9:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: GrandAdmiralJello
	IIRC, Hapes was in Imperial space and tried to drive them out. That's a legitimate reason to use force. If not, it certainly isn't an "atrocity". The original chronology didn't mention them all because they weren't sure. They didn't mention the generalities of the clone wars because the records didn't exist. They did make these very excuses in the book, y'know. If the original writeup for Teshik didn't include a single atrocity, but Teshik is being executed for atrocities (plural), you'd think at least one would be mentioned somewhere? Maybe Na'al is blatantly incompetent and misses an atrocity here and there, but to claim that he simply didn't feel like mentioning multiple atrocities conducted by someone he did mention was killed for them stretches any bounds of credulity. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 9/7/06 12:40am Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed?
	Hmmm, I thought the Empire had invaded the Hapes Cluster that had never been part of the Empire OR Republic.
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EH_Pilot Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 9/7/06 7:49am Subject: RE: Osvald Teshik......framed? - Date Edited: 9/7/06 7:53am (2 edits total) Edited By: EH_Pilot
	Jello: "There's no way to know--but we can still conclude that something's up when there's a disturbing lack of evidence on these supposed atrocities. This is not usual--the Rebels go out of their way to mention these things." Unless my memory fails me, there are very few atrocities (if not zero) mentioned in SW material carried out by Imperials that the reader or viewer has not already witnessed in primary sources. The one exception I would make for that is Tarkin. Vader is regarded as one of the worst beings in the galaxy and a loathsome murderer. We "know" Vader went around committing terrible acts of villainy, but I am hard pressed to think of more than a mere handful. "My ultimate conclusion that he was killed as a symbol is not disputed, the dispute is whether or not this aberration is entirely innocent or indicative of foul play. I smell a fish, though, especially given the disparity between his treatment and their treatment of others, especially Grant." A symbol? How is offing a captive officer going to help the Rebel cause? Doing so removes virtually any impulse an Imperial might have to surrendering. Moreover, the Emperor and his successor Lord Vader were dead. How does executing a mere Grand Admiral become a more effective symbol than the death of the heart of the Empire itself? Funny you should mention Grant; part of the terms of his surender included what amounts to a pardon of any actions he took as an officer in the service of the Emperor. The subject of Grant's crimes isn't even touched upon. Just like with Teshik. Simply put, "Who's Who: The Imperial Grand Admirals" is a brief biography of each man, not an in-depth study of their crimes (if any) and actions during their military service. I don't disagree with you in principle, but you really are going a little overboard with what little evidence there is to be had. -----signature----- Pilot of the Emperor's Hammer TIE Corps www.tiecorps.org Golden Ewok™ Recipient x4; Trojan Ewok™ Recipient -Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero-
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