Jedi Council Forums - Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?

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Author	Topic: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 10/2/06 1:36pm Subject: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	West End Games' "Empire Strikes Back" sourcebook talks about how Darth Vader wasn't respected by many upper tier Admirals for the fact he held no formal military rank. Admiral Motti mocks Vader (they really should have switched him and Tagge's names) along with treating him as little more than a messanger boy. Admirals plot against him and the Executor in Classic Star Wars. You'd think someone would respect the Executor of the Empire as someone to be treated as THE head or did that not happen until just before Endor? Perhaps as a reward for rescuing Palpatine from Zaarin.
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s65horsey Title: EUC and Arena Moddess Go Colts! Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 10/2/06 1:46pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	I got the impression that people of the OT era didn't have respect for the force. (At least the imperials.) Which leads to my next question. How many of said Moff's and military leaders knew of the Emperor's darkside powers? Or is this just assumed knowledge on everyone's part because of the rule of two and Vader obviously served the Emperor. -----signature----- Corran Horn is mine. Get used to it. One of Hammer's Angels Has reverted to being a 14 yr old. YAY JOBROS and TWILIGHT! Just laugh at it.
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GavinStrife Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 10/2/06 1:52pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	I'd wager there was a fair amount of jealousy involved. The Emperor treated Vader like his own son. While he was definately someone to be feared, all the admirals probably did their best to impress the Emperor and didn't get the recognition they felt they deserved. -----signature----- Alive and geeking since 1984.
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 10/2/06 1:53pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	s65horsey posted: I got the impression that people of the OT era didn't have respect for the force. (At least the imperials.) Which leads to my next question. How many of said Moff's and military leaders knew of the Emperor's darkside powers? Or is this just assumed knowledge on everyone's part because of the rule of two and Vader obviously served the Emperor. My impression was that only a very small number of Imperials knew that the Emperor wasn't just this really old Senator. The Rule of Two wasn't known outside of the Jedi Order and frankly knowledge of it died with that organization. I imagine that anyone whom DID assume a Sith would have an apprentice would assume Vader to be the Master rather than the apprentice. The vast majority of Imperials didn't believe in the Force with only a small number knowing that it existed. Tarkin treated it much like gravity while Declann worshipped it. My interpretation is that Palpatine's inner circle of Advisors, the Grand Moffs, and the Grand Admirals all pretty much knew that Palpatine was a Dark side magician though and ditto for Vader. Even this probably includes people who didn't know. Certainly the following individuals DID know with Tarkin, Zaarin, Declann, Pestage, Vader (duh), The Grand Moffs in Betrayal, Prince Xizor, Baron Tagge, Sollaine (the head of ISB), The Dark Side Elite & High Inquisitus, and Grand Admiral Thrawn
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NelanisGhost Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 10/2/06 2:00pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	The Imps are a bunch of petty bullies that were JEALOUS of Vader's status. THEY didn't know what he was about, so they tried to get rid of him. A bunch of jackals, always plotting against each other. That's the way the little people act in a dictatorship. Vying for the highest power's favor. -----signature----- If there's a bright center of the galaxy, you're on the planet it's farthest from: Earth Our own stunning bright center: http://astrosurf.com/sguisard/Pagim/GC.html Barnes and Noble: TFU hardcover. Nice! $5.98 in discount section.....
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Mariu Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 10/2/06 3:10pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously? - Date Edited: 10/2/06 3:18pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Mariu
	Isn't Imperial politics as a whole just rounds of mutual bullying and snubbing? It is quite common in a hierarchical monarchy. Well, to say one thing, Vader seemed to be coming out of nowhere. He showed up when the Emperor showed up on the scene. In the OT films, we could more or less tell someting about Tarkin and Motti from their uniforms that they belong to some sort of organizaiton. Then come in this dark-armored figure, and you wonder how he fits into the hierarchy even though he exudes authority. I am sure some Imperials didn't take Vader seriously because he wasn't one of them, whether it's a matter of lineage, careers, offices, etc. I would not put it past the Emperor to play Vader off against the regular Imperials, even though in the end he would come down on the side of Vader. As for the Force, maybe people didn't respect the Force that much during the OT era, but I think it might have gone further than that: people slighted Vader because they didn't know what the Force would be capable of. The Jedi Knights had just been eradicated, and the Sith, which had been underground for a long time, was rehabilitated recently. There was a huge lacuna in people's knowledge about the powers conferred by the Force... -----signature----- "You can't be a mother and an artist at the same time. Choose!" --Dame Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, to a fellow artist
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KissMeImARebel Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 10/2/06 3:32pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	I was watching ANH the other night and got thinking about this... In ANH Vader seems a lot like "the boss's son". As if Palpatine called up Tarkin and said, "give him something to do - he's my kid". So Tarkin gave Vader some side tasks to work on so Vader felt like he was doing something important: "Lead the boarding party on Tantiv IV", "Try to get something out of Leia", "Show up for the group meetings", etc. Vader probably wasn't taken seriously because there was no reason (in the minds of the officers) why he should be there: he wasn't a military commander (at least, not like they were). He was just this creepy dude forced on them who wasn't even good at cooperating with others. -----signature----- Waru's Sword of Truth RebelMollom of The Kind
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Mariu Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 10/2/06 3:43pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	KissMeImARebel posted: I was watching ANH the other night and got thinking about this... In ANH Vader seems a lot like "the boss's son". As if Palpatine called up Tarkin and said, "give him something to do - he's my kid". So Tarkin gave Vader some side tasks to work on so Vader felt like he was doing something important: "Lead the boarding party on Tantiv IV", "Try to get something out of Leia", "Show up for the group meetings", etc. Vader probably wasn't taken seriously because there was no reason (in the minds of the officers) why he should be there: he wasn't a military commander (at least, not like they were). He was just this creepy dude forced on them who wasn't even good at cooperating with others. Since Vader's authority comes straight from the Emperor, maybe the admirals didn't take him seriously because they didn't take the Emperor seriously enough and fancied him to be this frail, idiosyncratic old man who foisted a dark jedi on them. They thought that they could get away with slighting Vader because the Emperor might just drop the matter... -----signature----- "You can't be a mother and an artist at the same time. Choose!" --Dame Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, to a fellow artist
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KissMeImARebel Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 10/2/06 4:03pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously? - Date Edited: 10/2/06 4:06pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KissMeImARebel
	Mariu posted: Since Vader's authority comes straight from the Emperor, maybe the admirals didn't take him seriously because they didn't take the Emperor seriously enough and fancied him to be this frail, idiosyncratic old man who foisted a dark jedi on them. They thought that they could get away with slighting Vader because the Emperor might just drop the matter... Maybe...though I don't know if the admirals felt unthreatened by the Emperor: Jerjerrod looked pretty scared in RotJ when Vader said the Emperor was coming to check out the Death Star II. But at the same time...it sounds like the Emperor didn't oversee his commanders in the field very often. So maybe they figured Palpatine wouldn't bother punishing them if Vader ever complained. -----signature----- Waru's Sword of Truth RebelMollom of The Kind
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 10/2/06 4:05pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	nevertheless, if he's Executor. Vader is effectively Shogun of the Empire. You'd think he'd be treated better.
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Mariu Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 10/2/06 4:06pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	Charlemagne19 posted: nevertheless, if he's Executor. Vader is effectively Shogun of the Empire. You'd think he'd be treated better. What's in a name? The admirals are just unfazed, and this is not all that unexpected given some of their stations as aristocrats. -----signature----- "You can't be a mother and an artist at the same time. Choose!" --Dame Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, to a fellow artist
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Sn4tcH Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 10/2/06 4:17pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	Charlemagne19 posted: Vader is effectively Shogun of the Empire. Ah, see there, that might be the answer. If he's the knight, the shogun, the old guard, that's the problem. Vader is the past, he was part of the group that helped build the Empire to what it had become. But Vader and the Emperor were old, and that didn't sit well. All those Moffs were one-upping each other, do you really think that the Grand Admirals and such weren't thinking of how they were going to one-up Vader and even the Emperor? Or have we forgotten Sarn Shild? The man wanted to take the Corporate Sector for himself! Moffs were all power crazy, and I'm sure to them that Vader was just more competition. I have a question though, did Moffs know how Vader was killing his men? I know they knew he was killing those who failed him, but did they know he was using the Force to do it? -----signature----- http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000183542&tstart=30 The Batmite76 Batman Continuity Project PM me if you want to help!
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Charlemagne19 Registered: Jul '00	Date Posted: 10/2/06 4:24pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	Sn4tcH posted: I have a question though, did Moffs know how Vader was killing his men? I know they knew he was killing those who failed him, but did they know he was using the Force to do it? Remember Motti and Piett's freaked out reactions to the force choke? I think that's probably their first realization.
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Sn4tcH Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 10/2/06 4:28pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	Well that helps too. Without knowing that Vader is a force user, he just looks like a cripple in a giant iron lung that must have been a spoiled brat because he's executing anyone who does something wrong. In other words Moffs most likely looked at him and went, "Great, who invited Vader?" -----signature----- http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000183542&tstart=30 The Batmite76 Batman Continuity Project PM me if you want to help!
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 10/2/06 4:28pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	Lord Vader only receives the title of Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces (note the usage as compared to Pelly's Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet--it's a fundamentally different beast) and Military Executor after Yavin. That's why, post-Yavin, he's given an extremely wide range of powers and can supercede Grand Moffs (The Bright Jewel Oversector was subordinated to Lord Vader's command) and Grand Admirals (Thrawn took orders from Lord Vader). He'd built up a huge network of supporters and spies, as well as amassed a huge fortune. Though Lord Vader hated the Imperial Court, he certainly had built up his own little court with the favor he'd bestowed on certain of his favorites. That's why, in SotE, Xizor can remark that Lord Vader is most definately the second most powerful man in the galaxy. By ESB, he's a big shaker and mover. That doesn't mean, however, that everyone had to like him. We could tell what Ozzel--scion of the Old Anaxsi Generational families--thought of him, even though Lord Vader was Supreme Commander by then. Just because you don't like your boss, however, doesn't mean he isn't your boss. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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Mariu Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 10/2/06 4:46pm Subject: RE: Ever wonder why Darth Vader wasn't taken seriously?
	I wonder how Vader's cyborg status has affected his standing, given that one of the other cyborgs, Teshik, wasn't treated too kindly after he had gone mechanical... -----signature----- "You can't be a mother and an artist at the same time. Choose!" --Dame Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, to a fellow artist
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