Jedi Council Forums - Traitor-NJO

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Author	Topic: Traitor-NJO
StarByStar Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 12/11/06 3:35am Subject: Traitor-NJO
	Okay,well ive been reading Traitor again, and i must say,its more awsome than before. I really do think that its like the prelude to Jacens continuing journey to becoming Sith. I was thinking though, the book is not only a great read,but i felt like its a guide book, obviously not to be taken too literally, but still i think it has things that we can learn from, or at least think about.... On that note...i wanted to get other thoughts and opinions. How, or what can we take from this book and apply it to our lives? Again, Traitor is the best, dont miss out on this book,or read it again, ull find urself learning more/new things and totally helps understanding what Jacen is going through now... *BTW..ive been a Jacen fan since the Young Jedi Knights Series,and i still am, maybe even more so. I really hate all this Jacen-bashing,because maybe u just dont get it/him. Jacen rocks!! Thats all i can say.
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 12/11/06 4:00am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	What about it is awesome? I found it to be an equal mix of postives and negatives. It's notable, however, for what I think is Star Wars biggest idiocy after a hyperdriving planet--the utter cavalier and no-worries-mate offpage of planetary reshuffle management. No worries mate, we'll just shove all them moons out of the way, push a whole planet closer in-system. Don't worry how the terra quakes doesn't level any megabuildings. It's a joke, really. In a series all about the star kids, why only now do we get to see Jacen's face, for those who don't know his face other than a "younger Han." I'll give the book one thing: it's one of only two that bothered to show more insight into Vong appliances, but essentially the prose is too cosmic whaffle for em to take seriously. Oh, the camp ships. I struggle to understand the magnificient magnitude of these vast honeycomb space platforms that house millions, even tens of millions, of people. Did you hear what I said? Million. Milllllllion. What massive resources must a planet expend to rescue and keep alive aboard a million-populated cityship? -----signature----- Rock-a-by baby, on the treetop, Beaming with pride, the filth they hold, But when the wind blows, my temper implodes, High above a pit, filled with sharkticons, Down will come hardcover addicts, beaming no more. ©
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 12/11/06 6:19am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	Traitor was the first major step toward a dramatic philosophy shift about what we think of as "Star Wars"...and it backfired...completely. Even by the time of TUF they are attempting to backtrack some of the road they walked...by The Dark Nest, the philosophy of Traitor had not only been dismissed, now it was heresy and a Sith gateway drug. Traitor will long stand as a monolithic story, standing apart from the rest of the NJO haze (only other book to stand above being Star by Star for completely different reasons). It will long be regarded as the attempted coup d'etat of the force...and might well have succeeded if they hadn't staged it in the middle of prequel madness. -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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Sabrajaguar Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/11/06 8:37am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	Jedimarine posted: Traitor was the first major step toward a dramatic philosophy shift about what we think of as "Star Wars"...and it backfired...completely. Even by the time of TUF they are attempting to backtrack some of the road they walked...by The Dark Nest, the philosophy of Traitor had not only been dismissed, now it was heresy and a Sith gateway drug. Traitor will long stand as a monolithic story, standing apart from the rest of the NJO haze (only other book to stand above being Star by Star for completely different reasons). It will long be regarded as the attempted coup d'etat of the force...and might well have succeeded if they hadn't staged it in the middle of prequel madness. I hope your wrong. That LotF and Dark Swarm wasnt a retcon of traitor. Because seimply it layed down the foundation of a intresting view for the force, that could lead to force users beyons Jedi vs Sith/Dark Jedi. And Allows for Light Siders to possibly fight on opposing side of a conflict, allowing for more moraly challenging stories. If All this is lost for 3 mediocre movies it would be truly sad for litarary star wars. Someting that has left the of limited scope of the "new" movies far behind to expand the scopr of the orginal trilogy to ever newer horizons. -----signature----- You are no warrior. Warriors win battles without murdering the weak.-Jacen Solo This Jeedai brenzlit slave spit upon your grandfather's bones.-Jacen Solo Don' thinkof it as murder, think of it as blessed release-Jacen Solo
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Ive_Got_Two_Legs Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 12/11/06 8:55am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	I don't understand how some people STILL don't accept that the Potentium was wrong/Jacen is evil/Vergere led him there. I swear, there could be a story in the future from Vergere's POV with her talking to Lumiya about how to use the Potentium to bring Jacen to the Sith and these people would STILL argue that it's just 'deliberately misleading' or something. -----signature----- "Where's your sense of optimism?" "It opted out."
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Jedimarine Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 12/11/06 9:09am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted: I don't understand how some people STILL don't accept that the Potentium was wrong/Jacen is evil/Vergere led him there. I swear, there could be a story in the future from Vergere's POV with her talking to Lumiya about how to use the Potentium to bring Jacen to the Sith and these people would STILL argue that it's just 'deliberately misleading' or something. Says something about the Darkside's ability to disguise itself in noble intention and theoretical philosophy. And as far as depth of literary subtext...you can delve much deeper into the hearts of darkness and light without blurring the distinction. The distinction has always been what made Star Wars what it is. Traitor was attempt to blow minds and shift the series into a much more esoteric direction...as I often say...somebody loves that "certain point of view" conversation in ROTJ a little too much. I didn't hate Traitor as a book...it was actually an interesting read compared to some of the NJO...but whether you look at Traitor as a theory that has fallen into disregard or as the beginning of the dark path for Jacen...at this point, there is no reason to assume the teachings of Vegere or the training Jacen took will lead to any revelations or new creations in the Star Wars universe. -----signature----- So Devaronian females are suppose to have thick fur, eh? Has anyone seen one outside an essential guide? ... When even the creative teams refuse to make fuzzy Devaronians...it should be a clue, folks. Thus endeth the lesson.
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Sabrajaguar Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/11/06 9:19am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO - Date Edited: 12/11/06 10:16am (3 edits total) Edited By: Sabrajaguar
	Ive_Got_Two_Legs posted: I don't understand how some people STILL don't accept that the Potentium was wrong/Jacen is evil/Vergere led him there. I swear, there could be a story in the future from Vergere's POV with her talking to Lumiya about how to use the Potentium to bring Jacen to the Sith and these people would STILL argue that it's just 'deliberately misleading' or something. For someone who so readily rejected what one character (Vergere) had to say your awful quick to acept (what another (Lumyia) has to say about Vergere. We Don't know if Lumyia is simply lying about knowing Vergere. We Know A. Vergere was A Jedi kninght before Anakin Skywalker was 14. B. We know Shira Berie was a young woman who was a lover of Luke Skywalker, Imperial spy, and later Darkisder Villaness. While we dont have all the Clues to Vergere's warebouts During the Vong Invasion. We Do know Lumyia is a known less than trustworthy source of information. And Talks to non self aware force shadows. When will people start letting some one dictation of the force constrain their entire view of a univers and learns simply to read, and follow the story without Set in stone precocived notions. Ps Kyle katarn's also shares in the Potentium view of the force. Compleatly indipendent of vergere's teachings. -----signature----- You are no warrior. Warriors win battles without murdering the weak.-Jacen Solo This Jeedai brenzlit slave spit upon your grandfather's bones.-Jacen Solo Don' thinkof it as murder, think of it as blessed release-Jacen Solo
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000 Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 12/11/06 10:08am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	Why do I doubt Lumiya's tale of Vergere? She's a Sith, duh, and a proven liar. All we have to indicate Vergere had any Sith association or motivations is Lumiya's story to Jacen, which is told along side a number of proven lies. Why should I believe Lumiya at all? Regarding the Potentium: taken at literal value, it's actually quite a sound philosophy, and one that encourages far more personal responsibility and morality than the usual schools of thought. Its central tenant isn't that there's no good or evil or light or dark sides at all; it's that the dark and light sides of the force come from within an individual rather than without. Moral integrity and intent are what matters, not some parasentient external force. Going by Potentium philosophy, darksiders have only themselves to blame for their fall, not any external bogeyman. That's why the heresy, such as it is, is so appealing, at least to me. In practice, of course, it seems to be used to quite the opposite effect, and obviously doesn't have a fantastic track record when used by actual force sensitives (I will note, though, that Jacen seems to have abandoned the philosophy by the beginning of the Corellian crisis). I'm also describing the Potentium as Vergere saw it; the PotJ sourcebook may well describe a different outlook, and I can't check it at the moment.
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Havac Title: Lit Mod of War Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 12/11/06 10:28am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	Exactly, except for the fact that the Potentium is a separate philosophy that looks kinda sorta like Vergere's teachings, but really the two have nothing to do with each other and I hate the way they've been conflated. However, Vergere's philosophy as expressed in Traitor is pretty much right on. It's the later misinterpretation and twisting of it which has caused the problems. -----signature----- "Is there a captain's hat involved in this?"
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ezekiel22x Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/11/06 10:49am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	I don't understand how some people STILL don't accept that the Potentium was wrong/Jacen is evil/Vergere led him there. Perhaps because those three ideas are not necessarily one in the same. Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Padme led Anakin towards a dark path despite that their doing so was not a conscious means to that specific end. Yes, a great deal of Anakin’s training was certainly not ideal or even conducive to the desired results, but writing off the entire development as “wrong” is an erroneous simplification. The same may very well apply to Jacen and his development under Vergere. While it’s obvious her tutelage has influenced Jacen's current standing, her intent, as well as Jacen’s ultimate destiny, have yet to be set in stone. -----signature----- Rollerball (1975) > Star Wars (1977)
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DarthSanctimonious Registered: Sep '06	Date Posted: 12/11/06 11:03am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO - Date Edited: 12/11/06 11:04am (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthSanctimonious
	Havac posted: However, Vergere's philosophy as expressed in Traitor is pretty much right on. It's the later misinterpretation and twisting of it which has caused the problems. I don't know--you can see a lot of the murkier points of Vergere's philosophy in Jacen right now. Like Vergere beating the hell out of Jacen because she claims to be convinced it's best for Jacen versus Jacen beating the hell out of the galaxy because he's convinced it's best for the galaxy (I say claims to be because we never see anything from her point of view). That and the whole weed-pulling thing. Even if Jacen has abandoned Vergere's philosophy of an internal dark side, he's certainly kept and fostered the superiority complex, intense sociopathy, and capacity for rationalization. ...which is exactly why he's such a wonderful villain.
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Sabrajaguar Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/11/06 11:16am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	DarthSanctimonious posted: Havac posted: However, Vergere's philosophy as expressed in Traitor is pretty much right on. It's the later misinterpretation and twisting of it which has caused the problems. I don't know--you can see a lot of the murkier points of Vergere's philosophy in Jacen right now. Like Vergere beating the hell out of Jacen because she claims to be convinced it's best for Jacen versus Jacen beating the hell out of the galaxy because he's convinced it's best for the galaxy (I say claims to be because we never see anything from her point of view). That and the whole weed-pulling thing. Even if Jacen has abandoned Vergere's philosophy of an internal dark side, he's certainly kept and fostered the superiority complex, intense sociopathy, and capacity for rationalization. ...which is exactly why he's such a wonderful villain. Antipathy is Death... This is the keystone to Vergere's philosphy. She beat the snot out of Jacen to teach him lesons of himself and the universe. SO he would stop hiding up in his own head and start thinking practicaly. Why is he fighting, why are the yuzzan Vong vighting. What are the flaws in his character, what are the flaw in YV culture that have made them into the agressive conqureres of the day. The How and the Why of the matter. He follows vergere's teaching isn Dark Nest (Ablbeit crudly)in Dark Swarm. He cuts logicaly to the fat. What is the D-nest, Why dose it exist, What to do about it. What makes the killicks dangerious. While Jacens actions can be seen as moraly bankrupt (In his institance to kill ryanar isntead of capture him) he still follows vergere's teachings. By Betrayl, the opening Scene on Adamar clinches it. Jacen was antipithtic to the reasons of the Adumari actions. He just Dissmissed it as another attempt by a crackpot to gain power, and the sheep who follow him. IE Jacen became antipatheic, and shifted away from the Grey/ Potentium-ish philosohies of Vergere. Didnt the Trials Lumyia put Jacen through Show that. He was Dismissive, cold, and easily fustrated to the point that he no longer cared for anyone. He didnt even offer to use force healing on the Guy who thought he was dieing. Or even atempt to help the Jedi wannabe through meditation practices. -----signature----- You are no warrior. Warriors win battles without murdering the weak.-Jacen Solo This Jeedai brenzlit slave spit upon your grandfather's bones.-Jacen Solo Don' thinkof it as murder, think of it as blessed release-Jacen Solo
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SEPARATESICKLEROOK2 Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 12/11/06 11:16am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	I find it strange for some to insult the movies, but champion the books, when the EU doesn't hold a candle to the films. I have read most of the Eu, and found them all lacking. -----signature----- "I DO NOT FEAR THE DARKSIDE, I EMBRACE IT!"
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Sabrajaguar Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 12/11/06 11:24am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	SEPARATESICKLEROOK2 posted: I find it strange for some to insult the movies, but champion the books, when the EU doesn't hold a candle to the films. I have read most of the Eu, and found them all lacking. Episode 1,2,3? Yes I said it they were Mediacore movies. The EU took the Minimal view of the SW univers the orginal Trilogy gave us and expandid it 7 fold. Serenity, 5th Element, and Star Trek: First Contact were much better than all three of the Prequals. And Had significantly smaller budgets. Hell id rather watch a Battlestar Galactica(Current series) than thoes 3 movies. If you like the movies better than the 50+ books of the eu what can I say, Maybe you just identiy with Visual Media better than Written Media. Dosent change the fact the the Prequals were fa less than spectacular. And the orginial Trilogy only had So many set Hours of flim/story, and that in and of its self makes it limited. -----signature----- You are no warrior. Warriors win battles without murdering the weak.-Jacen Solo This Jeedai brenzlit slave spit upon your grandfather's bones.-Jacen Solo Don' thinkof it as murder, think of it as blessed release-Jacen Solo
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DurronFan Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 12/11/06 11:30am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	I liked Traitor solely for the reason that it had the courage to challenge previous dogmas or claimed axioms of the Force. From a purely philosphical perspective, I found potentium to make a lot more sense than the traditional light/dark side concept of the Force. But since this is SW, things don't have to philosophically make sense and hence the dark/light side concept ultimately prevails. SW just wouldn't be SW without it. What I find truly amusing is that some people actually thought that Traitor was an attempt to recreate Jedi-view of the Force, to completely redefine it, when it was really just about an old jedi giving one alternative view on the matter. And whether you like Traitor or not, you have to admit that it is one of the most important and monumental books in SW EU. In the overall scheme of SW EU, few books have had as big an impact. What makes this even more amazing is that it was one book in the midst of a 20-book series, yet it still affects events many years after that series. -----signature----- Luke Skywalker: I'm not afraid! Yoda: Good... You will be. You will be.
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000 Registered: Oct '05	Date Posted: 12/11/06 11:34am Subject: RE: Traitor-NJO
	SEPARATESICKLEROOK2 posted: I find it strange for some to insult the movies, but champion the books, when the EU doesn't hold a candle to the films. I have read most of the Eu, and found them all lacking. It's a matter of taste, I suppose, but I found all three prequels unwatchable, and found recently that the OT bores me. I actually fell asleep last I watched ESB. The EU has alot of crap, but only fifty percent or so of the prose (as opposed to the sourcebooks and research materials) is truly terrible, which is better than I can say for the movies.
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