Charlemagne19 posted:Then again, given how Zahn managed to cast doubt on the stupid clone Emperor thing, and help point out and correct for the stupidity of much of the Jedi Academy Trilogy and Dark Empire Trilogy, I tend to give him a wide latitude in some areas. By which you mean made Mara look like an idiot right?
LtNOWIS posted:By that logic, being a soldier or a combat pilot is a Dark side activity.
RedXIV posted:Making them pass out? Isn't that pretty much what Luke did? He choked them into unconciousness.
RedXIV posted:And more to the point, he wasn't acting out of anger, fear, or any other emotion. He calmly, logically took action to nonlethally remove them from his path.
Ulicus posted:I said: "True enough, as long as it's in self defence and generally the last resort."
Ulicus posted:He uses aggression when he doesn't have to. Such is of the dark side, so sayeth Yoda.
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:I'm hearing you, and all I can think of is Neville Chamberlain.
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:Ulicus posted:I said: "True enough, as long as it's in self defence and generally the last resort."I'm hearing you, and all I can think of is Neville Chamberlain.
Quiet_Mandalorian posted: Ulicus posted:He uses aggression when he doesn't have to. Such is of the dark side, so sayeth Yoda.Yep, and we know how often he's right...
Ulicus posted:Do NOT confuse a desire to avoid unneccessary conflict as unwillingness to challenge injustice.
Ulicus posted:So, you're suggesting that the use of aggression when there are viable, workable and real alternatives is a good action?
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:Are you suggesting that Yoda has ever recommended the use of agression, even when there were not viable (General Grievous mini-series) alternatives?
Charlemagne19 posted:I'm sorry, I must have misinterpreted the whole pre-emptive strike with big ass army of clones.
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:Ulicus posted:Do NOT confuse a desire to avoid unneccessary conflict as unwillingness to challenge injustice.My confusing them's not going to be the problem...
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:Ulicus posted:So, you're suggesting that the use of aggression when there are viable, workable and real alternatives is a good action?Are you suggesting that Yoda has ever recommended the use of agression, even when there were not viable (General Grievous mini-series) alternatives?
Quiet_Mandalorian posted:Charlemagne19 posted:I'm sorry, I must have misinterpreted the whole pre-emptive strike with big ass army of clones.I think you must have.
Ulicus posted:Clearly it already has been if you've compared me to freakin' Neville Chamberlain.
Ulicus posted:I assume you meant "never" right?
Ulicus posted:There's plenty of stuff that doesn't jive brilliantly well between PT Yoda and OT Yoda - I chalk this up to him having wisened up a bit during his exile. Those two decades were amongst the most important in his life.
Ulicus posted:I didn't argue Yoda was infallible, hell, the "so sayeth" bit was supposed to be tongue in cheek - the guy isn't a saint. But I do figure he has at least a hint of a inkling of what he's talking about, and that not everything he said to Luke was a load of balls.
Ulicus posted:At the end of the day, all I argued was that Luke's act of choking the gamorreans was skirting close to darkness - which it was. I also pointed out that Yoda would have claimed it was a dark act in and of itself. There's no real way of justifying it - Luke takes the quick and easy option, rather than thinking, "hmm, how else might I solve this problem?"
Ulicus posted:This was intended by Lucas - we are supposed to see Luke transforming into his father before our eyes - or at least taking on aspects of him - only for Luke to finally reject this at the end of the movie.
Quiet_Mandalorian posted: Ulicus posted:I assume you meant "never" right?No, I don't think so.
Quiet_Mandalorian posted: That's a good point, but it assumes that there were other options. For example, are Gammoreans vulnerable to Force persuasion? If not, I can't think of two many other solutions that wouldn't have created a lot of ruckus (and maybe have ended up killing the guards), and that would likely have been disruptive of Luke's planned entrance.
Ulicus posted:I'm being dense then, I don't understand how it works... since Yoda quite clearly *has* recommended aggression before...
Ulicus posted:I thought you were calling my reliance on Yoda as the "non-agressive Jedi" into doubt...
Ulicus posted:I gave the example of Qui-Gon sending Jar-Jar to sleep... I always assumed that was with the Force... but yes, in a situation where there was absolutely, positively NOTHING else Luke could have done quickly and quietly, he's justified. I just don't think that situation existed.