Jedi Council Forums - Characters that certain authors don't get.

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Author	Topic: Characters that certain authors don't get.
BobaMatt Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/20/07 8:46pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get. - Date Edited: 2/20/07 8:51pm (3 edits total) Edited By: BobaMatt
	rhonderoo posted: No. Anakin does not do ANYTHING in the movie after she says, "I can't live like that can you?" (I can find the script line, if you'd like.) I...don't think anyone was talking about that late in the movie. rhonderoo posted: Her "no" somewhere in the middle of the night became "maybe" or literally: "I'm coming with you." (The LITERAL next scene after Anakin's "You're right. It would destroy us.") He doesn't ask her to come with him. He tells her he's going. (Look! She's free of him!!! Oh. Wait.) This is from the movie. Not the novelization. Eventually, yes. She starts to warm up to him on Naboo, subsequent to getting stuck with him as a bodyguard, after initially rejecting him and thinking of him as a harmless kid. rhonderoo posted: I watched ESB tonight, the only difference between Han and Anakin when it comes to persistence is the age and confidence level. I would agree, if Han knew Leia for a few days, talking to her sporadically, when he was but a nine year old child, then didn't see her for ten years, and then immediately decides he's fallen in love with her the minute he sees her again. Of course, that's not at all what's happened. We get hints of Han's attraction to her in ANH, after they've both been set up to bump heads. As Han's character changes, so does their on screen relationship. Three years of a partnership/friendship/relationship later, we get crackling romantic tension on screen. Which one makes more sense? Realistically. Come on, now. -----signature----- DUNE - Chronicles of the Imperium RP http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_role_playing/b10755/29433346/p1/?11 As Father and Son (An AU RP) http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10 Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds.
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/20/07 8:58pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get. - Date Edited: 2/20/07 9:05pm (3 edits total) Edited By: rhonderoo
	BobaMatt posted: Of course, that's not at all what's happened. We get hints of Han's attraction to her in ANH. Three years of a partnership/friendship/relationship later, we get crackling romantic tension on screen. Which one makes more sense? Realistically. Come one, now. No crackling for me on Han and Leia, sorry. And their story has never been as steeped in myth as Anakin and Padme's. Han was never supposed to have the monkey on his back, nor was he a demi-god raised by a monkish society to shun attachment and "feelings" other than compassion. It was lighter fare back then. Of course, George didn't know nor care what they were supposed to do after they hugged and danced with the Ewoks. Trying to compare the two romances is just the same as saying Anakin is a stalker and Han is a molestor. They're apples and oranges, and just because some like their romance tragic... (look at classic Literature. Romeo and Juliet? Now there was some crackling romance! Booyah!) and some like guys that spout off one-liners to women that put them in their place by insulting them doesn't make either one "better" than the other. Because as with everything else (which never seems to come across in this forum...), it's personal preference and interpretation of the characters, books, etc. that's going to color your opinion (that is so often stated as fact) . -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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BobaMatt Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/20/07 9:13pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get. - Date Edited: 2/20/07 9:21pm (5 edits total) Edited By: BobaMatt
	rhonderoo posted: No crackling for me on Han and Leia, sorry. Seriously? That banter? That relationship? That tension? That scene with the first kiss. rhoneroo posted: And their story has never been as steeped in myth as Anakin and Padme's. Han was never supposed to have the monkey on his back, nor was he a demi-god raised by a monkish society to shun attachment and "feelings" other than compassion. It was lighter fare back then. Of course, George didn't know nor care what they were supposed to do after they hugged and danced with the Ewoks. First of all, the tone of those movies was lighter than anything in the prequels. Even ESB. Second of all, who cares about the mythology it's steeped in. It's got an aura around it that's completely independant of it's actual execution. rhonderoo posted: They're apples and oranges, and just because some like their romance tragic... (look at classic Literature. Romeo and Juliet? Now there was some crackling romance! Booyah!) and some like guys that spout off one-liners to women that put them in their place by insulting them doesn't make either one "better" than the other. You seem to misunderstand. There's nothing wrong with romance. Hell, when I heard "Across the Stars," I was extremely excited because that piece of music evokes exactly the sweeping, Arthurian romance I wanted for them. The music itself still damn near makes me tear up. The problem is that it didn't come across. It could have been written wonderfully. It should have been made the centerpiece of the trilogy. (...one of the reasons I think Anakin should have been made older...) True, the approaches were very different, and one approach is not necessarily better than another, but Han and Leia's was believable. Anakin and Padme's, as presented, doesn't really make a ton of sense. Not because of the romance, but because of the characterizations and their situation. -----signature----- DUNE - Chronicles of the Imperium RP http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_role_playing/b10755/29433346/p1/?11 As Father and Son (An AU RP) http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10 Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds.
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rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/20/07 9:34pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get. - Date Edited: 2/20/07 9:35pm (1 edits total) Edited By: rhonderoo
	BobaMatt posted: Seriously? That banter? That relationship? That tension? That scene with the first kiss. And no, no crackling. So I'm right! There is no other opinion. //Literature Rhonda BobaMatt posted: First of all, the tone of those movies was lighter than anything in the prequels. Even ESB. Second of all, who cares about the mythology it's steeped in. It's got an aura around it that's completely independant of it's actual execution. Except that the tone means they are two totally different types of romances... One is more classically styled, which makes a big difference in how the characters are going to act and reveal their feelings, and how much they know about dealing with the opposite sex.... all that and a multitude of other things. BobaMatt posted: The problem is that it didn't come across. It could have been written wonderfully. It should have been made the centerpiece of the trilogy. True, the approaches were very different, and one approach is not necessarily better than another, but Han and Leia's was believable. Anakin and Padme's, as presented, doesn't really make a ton of sense. Not because of the romance, but because of the characterizations and their situation. No, you seem to misunderstand. You have a legion of Anakin/Padme fans who disagree with you. It doesn't makes sense to you. Han and Leia's was more believable to you. Because that up there is your opinion and that's all it can be. So we could do "is not" and "is to" all night... But I will say this: When it comes to the writing and acting, I have a DVD here in my own personal collection that shows that it wasn't the writing for those who didn't warm to the shortened romance scenes. It was the editing. A bit of a difference. It was on Ben Burtt's direction that the Naboo scenes where the two of them get to know each other were taken out. And the movie flows much better with them in. Of course, the novelization (which is EU and canon, I believe) shows it perfectly, so the problem was solved before it was ever a problem. -----signature----- DT421 FYI: You don't deal with me. I deal with you. Damned right the Jedi's fire has gone out of the universe. I was the bad-ass Class C extinguisher who snuffed them. - @darthvader (Darth Vader on Twitter)
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BobaMatt Title: TFN EU Staff Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/20/07 10:22pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
	rhonderoo posted: Except that the tone means they are two totally different types of romances... One is more classically styled, which makes a big difference in how the characters are going to act and reveal their feelings, and how much they know about dealing with the opposite sex.... all that and a multitude of other things. It's all one universe that has to follow its own rules. rhonderoo posted: No, you seem to misunderstand. You have a legion of Anakin/Padme fans who disagree with you. It doesn't makes sense to you. Han and Leia's was more believable to you. Because that up there is your opinion and that's all it can be. So we could do "is not" and "is to" all night... By believable I mean "realistic" and "credible," and yes those terms apply to movies that deal with characters we're supposed to empathize with. In real life, Anakin and Padme's relationship seems forced and unhealthy. Of course, maybe it just is. I don't believe it was intended to be. I simply don't think that the relationships - as presented in the films - are as open to subjectivity as you're advocating, as there are more or less objective standards set up by women's organizations and youth organizations setting up guidelines for young people in choosing healthy relationships. Anakin and Padme may have ended up okay - they didn't, but they may have been fairly happy - but that doesn't mean that the roots of their relationship seem okey dokey. Heck, there's a happily married couple here in NY, whose relationship started because the man was obsessed with the woman and, when she rebuffed his advances, he hired men to throw lye in her face, blinding her. He got out of jail, they sort of began to talk, and they married. Obviously, this is not a direct comparison. The argument on our side is that the movies themselves do not give us any reason why they like each other. There's no buildup. They just...do. Because the story dictated it. And one of the primary reasons its a problem is the ten year gap. But maybe it's simply a matter of opinion. rhonderoo posted: But I will say this: When it comes to the writing and acting, I have a DVD here in my own personal collection that shows that it wasn't the writing for those who didn't warm to the shortened romance scenes. It was the editing. A bit of a difference. It was on Ben Burtt's direction that the Naboo scenes where the two of them get to know each other were taken out. And the movie flows much better with them in. Of course, the novelization (which is EU and canon, I believe) shows it perfectly, so the problem was solved before it was ever a problem. I completely, completely, completely agree. I've long been an advocate of the idea that Lucas' insistence of "moving the story forward" actually makes his stories weaker. There's not a single deleted scene on those DVDs - with the possible exception of the Wald fight from TPM - that wouldn't have made the prequels better movies. -----signature----- DUNE - Chronicles of the Imperium RP http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_role_playing/b10755/29433346/p1/?11 As Father and Son (An AU RP) http://boards.theforce.net/role_playing_forum/b10328/28357048/p1/?10 Emperor Fel's badassery knows no bounds.
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Irandrura Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 2/20/07 10:31pm Subject: RE: Characters that certain authors don't get.
	Oh, boy. I make a few posts, come back a day later, and it's five pages ahead and there's been a brief flame war. Things sure move fast on this board, don't they? I would have liked to get a few words in edgeways back after that conversation after my argument with leia_naberrie, but we're past there, so I won't. Unfortunately. Anyway, if I may weigh in on this Revan matter (hopefully a little less controversially )... No, I don't think KotOR II got Revan terribly wrong, but it was a different approach to that of the original KotOR. In hindsight, when I play through the first game and mentally add in the second game's backstory, it feels a bit awkward. Not terribly so, but just a bit. On the whole, it's not about content, or statements like that 'Revan never fell' one. (Though about that statement, it's not one that I feel causes great problems. It fits in with Kreia's worldview, and that's what matters. Whether Revan 'fell', or what falling means or entails, is up to interpretation, because the Force is nothing if not mysterious. Then again, I'm very sympathetic to the Potentium and dislike the orthodox Light/Dark divide, Lucas' statements be damned.) Er... where was I before I got sidetracked? Oh yes, the two games. The difference is in tone and atmosphere. KotOR is rather bright and happy. The graphics are cleaner, the themes are pristine, all about redemption and the measure of a man and very pro-Jedi, and they don't really make much of an attempt at moral ambiguity. The whole Revan reveal, while definitely cool, didn't get into the real philosophical issues of identity and being that are there. KotOR II did a lot more. The atmosphere of KotOR II is darker, more sordid, and everything is ambiguous. KotOR II, unlike the first game, is not a straight 'there's the bad guy, now go get 'im' assault. Malak, while potentially interesting, served as a pretty generic Sith Lord (and will indeed end up a footnote in history next to Revan, which is thematically appropriate for him as the perpetual underdog), while the titular Sith Lords of KotOR II each have plenty of character development, so that defeating them is not about sticking a lightsabre in their face so much as understanding them. Even the endings to the games - KotOR I is 'congratulations, let's have a party in front of the temple', while KotOR II is 'you drift off into the unknown'. One attempts to be morally ambiguous, one does not. (For this reason, it's my opinion that KotOR II has more depth, and I personally prefer it, though the first game was most assuredly excellent. While imperfect, KotOR II was a definite step in the right direction, and I'm hoping for similar ambiguity from that Vader's apprentice thingy that's being made.) So what KotOR II does, is look at Revan from a different light. That's understandable, given their creative agenda in that game, but it does mean that it doesn't feel quite the same. As each game has a different emphasis, neither should be taken as gospel (well, it's my opinion that nothing should be taken as gospel, be it book or movie or game), but reconciled in the imagination. When Revan did those things in KotOR I, it was not exactly like the game depicted them happenung. When they look back at him in KotOR II, again, it wasn't necessarily quite like that. In many ways, it's a good thing that we have these two different depictions of Revan, so that we can see what a multifaceted character he (though I like the female Revan more, personally, so that's what she is in my vision of the SW universe) really is and have this sort of discussion. Both games 'got' Revan, they just got Revan differently. Vive la différence.
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